Of which there is no God known to exist, nor any miracles that anyone can point to as actually occurring. What you think has happened sounds very much like a mind wanting to verify what it believes, so creates circumstances and interprets this as being whatever it wants. This is very common.
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Belief vs Know
- Thread starter Fool
- Start date
Sure, why should we trust them? If these people are living lives that need changes how sound is their thinking as it is?
And many mundane experiences can be life changing. It's not as if someone has some experience and they decide to make changes means it was divine or a God involved. We know very well that theists will attribute their own decisions to their God, which is way a believer can justify to themselves their belief is rational, and a cause and effect going on.
If their God had its **** together why did it wait so long to help guide the believer?
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Nonsense. When you have personal communication with Him you will understand. But you can't get there without belief, in most cases. So, it's kind of a catch 22 situation for skeptics.
Faith and trust are almost the same. We have trust that our spouses are faithful, and trust that drivers will not run us over. Atheists say that they won't believe without proof. Yet, atheists sometimes marry, and virtually all atheists cross streets. Clearly atheists have some trust (without proof) or they would not be able to leave their houses and venture forth into the world.
Even if one doesn't believe in an entity God, one must respect the laws (thou shalt not kill....thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife...etc). So, having faith in the bible seems to make sense, even if one does not have faith in God.
Most Christians pick and choose what they want to believe out of the bible. They feel that there are parts that are nonsense (Jonah swallowed by a whale). Much of that is likely a misunderstanding. For example, Jonah was hungry and praying to God for help, then suddenly a whale beached itself and he was sustained in (sustained in means "ate") whale belly. The miracle was getting a whale to eat....not getting eaten by a whale. It was a translation error.
So, the parts of the bible that don't seem to make sense are likely misinterpreted.
God excludes people from heaven if they are easily duped into losing faith. Thus, those who are duped into making war (following Satan) are not allowed into heaven.
This is why God tests faith, rather than testing knowledge. God wants to know if we will some day follow Satan.
Thus having faith is better than knowing when it comes to a test of faith.
In other words, you are asking "why follow an idiot?" But, if they learned, they now know, so they might inspire others to know.
"Why wait so long to guide the believer?" Any time any beneficial change occurs, we could always ask why it didn't happen sooner. Why didn't someone end slavery before Abe Lincoln did? Why didn't someone come up with a COVID vaccine before Moderna and Pfizer? Why didn't you say something before you spoke?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
You are familiar, presumably, with the term “contempt prior to investigation”?
It’s a principle which, in the words of Herbert Spencer, “is guaranteed to keep man in everlasting ignorance”
Huh? Knowledge always presumes belief. Belief presumes no knowledge at all.
God doing miracles is called folklore.
Sure, your personal experiences is so compelling. Odd how this God never communicates to people who don't also believe in it. It's almost as if it's the belief doing the talking and not any God.
Well guess what, I've investigated religious belief, rituals, behaviors, and even the psychology of belief. That is an excellent basis for understanding how theists behave.
The interesting thing about how the brain evolved with religion is that theists do not arrive at their beliefs rationally and through the frontal lobes. They appeal to, and activate, the emotion and reward centers of the brain, which is why theists find so much satisfaction believing. It's essentially a high. About 15% of humans do not have the kind of "wired for God" trait, so are less likely to be religious.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Until you experience it. Then you can't not believe.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
He does. But you have to listen. How would anyone accept him in the first place if the Spirit didn't speak to them? God actually never stops speaking.
OK, another claim. So explain the objective method so that an open minded, objective thinker can "accept him" and then hear what there is. It's odd to me that God is powerless to communicate with smart thinkers UNLESS they accept "him". This simply backs up my point that God only is heard by people who already believe, which suggests self-created voices being heard.
To my mind an impressive thing would be if God started talking to non-believers. Why would an almighty God have to wait for a mortal to accept "him"?
RestlessSoul
Well-Known Member
Well yeah, absolutely. Reason and logic are very useful tools, the rational mind can do great things. But these are not everything; there are other working parts of the mind, other layers to consciousness. Isn't that why Buddhists teach meditation as a path to enlightenment, and emphasise the need to detach from thought? Only by silencing the chattering monkey-mind, can we connect with the Great Reality within and without.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
He does talk to non-believers. He doesn't force anyone to listen however. Would you want a God who mentally rapes people or one who seeks true relationship?
All an open minded person must do is begin to study God's Word. If you want to know Jesus, read what he says and ask him to reveal truth to you. He is the Truth.
The monkey mind is largely the overactive emotion centers humans evolved with. We have a fight to flight fear response mechanism that we don't need, and this brain messes with how humans think and engage with society. If the very fervor of religious belief that uses the monkey mind.
Again you're referring to a certain mental condition that a person needs to create to make this work. By creating the mental condition who's to say the believer doesn't create the God? Let's note how many different Christians think God wants contrary things, so what gives? Is God telling these Christians different things, or is what God "tells" believers exactly what the believer wants to hear?
Your claim isn't adding up.
Really? Is it mental rape for some stranger to say something to you on the street? No. God could easily express itself to anyone. And if you are correct it should be reaching out to the many believers who are mean and anti-Christ.
The Bible has a few good things, but it's largely useless to the average person who can think for themselves. Plus a person needs to assume these versions of God exist, and that the Bible is true. Doing research shows it is far from the truth. What you seem to be meaning is some sort of Christian doctrine being true, and take you pick on that Christian buffet.
Noöne's asking to be mind raped. All we skeptics need is some clear evidence. I'd expect an omnipotent god to be able to provide convincing evidence for his existence with a flick of his little finger.
OK.... so what is God's word? the Quran? the Vedas? the Tao? the Bible? How are we to determine this?
So, as an avowed Christian, I'll assume you're partial to the Bible. People have been dissecting this anthology, in minute detail, for nearly two thousand years, and have yet to agree on anything. It's been edited, deleted from, added to, and miscopied. Who actually wrote any of it is a mystery. It's packed with contradictions and errors. How one could "study" it without becoming thoroughly confused I can't imagine.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
God reaches out to everyone alive.
He speaks to all are willing to hear.
But you insist on holding your ears closed, apparently.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
That's a crock. All of orthodox Christianity agrees on the central tenets of the faith. That includes thosands of churches.