Believing A Lie

[Unveiled Artist]

I mean, if the deity tells the believer a lie, what value does it have to the believer that he (the believer) needs to question the deity about it?

That's what I meant. I understand the type of lie doesn't matter in the OP. I hope others did too??

Realizes she's talking to herself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This lie is not harmful, unless one actually started spreading it around as truth, which some already do. I was given strict instructions not to discuss it publicly, however.

I don't understand what you mean about discussing it publicly. Regardless what the lie is, I was thinking it depends on the believer and whether he feels the lie is worth questioning or to accept it as the truth because his deity said it and no one else.

 

[BSM1]

It was made clear in that my deity told me, point blank, He was telling me a lie. He then ordered me to believe it.

Yes, there is possibly hidden meaning in the lie I was told to believe.

Sounds like your Deity is just screwing with you...

 

[ThirtyThree]

I don't understand what you mean about discussing it publicly. Regardless what the lie is, I was thinking it depends on the believer and whether he feels the lie is worth questioning or to accept it as the truth because his deity said it and no one else.

I mean, I am forbidden to discuss the lie I was told to believe as truth in public, as truth.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Sounds like your Deity is just screwing with you...

That is His prerogative. I worship Him for Him. This worship does not change because The Father of Lies expects me to believe a lie, knowing it is a lie.

Besides, the exercise is one I consider valuable, having done it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I mean, I am forbidden to discuss the lie I was told to believe as truth in public, as truth.

I don't mind that. I'ma switch it to you cause in the OP I didn't know you were talking about yourself. How do you view lies? Are they moral, immoral?

Why wouldn't you question your deity?

Maybe share more about the deity?

edit

Okay, here we go...

Do you trust what your deity tells you whether or not it is a lie?

How would it being a lie to you and why would it matter given he is the Father of Lies?

If it's cognitive dissonance, then it may be perceived as a lie but it isn't. That sounds like something have to work it out with patience and connecting the dots to know what your deity is telling you (in context) not just content.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I don't mind that. I'ma switch it to you cause in the OP I didn't know you were talking about yourself. How do you view lies? Are they moral, immoral?

Why wouldn't you question your deity?

Maybe share more about the deity?

edit

Okay, here we go...

Do you trust what your deity tells you whether or not it is a lie?

How would it being a lie to you and why would it matter given he is the Father of Lies?

If it's cognitive dissonance, then it may be perceived as a lie but it isn't. That sounds like something have to work it out with patience and connecting the dots to know what your deity is telling you (in context) not just content.

Yes, I trust what my deity tells me and I obey Him.

It is a lie because He said it is a lie, a lie which I believe as truth, yet know is a lie. As for this title regarding Him, I have come to, through this, understand it better. It caused more to be revealed, if that makes sense. This is always how it goes with Him. If I do as He wills, doors open. I gain new understanding and knowledge.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmm. Re-reading your OP, I personally will go by experience whether or not it is true. If he tells you the sky is black and the moon is green and it affects you in a positive way that you receive knowledge and information, then I wouldn't see a need to question him for his logic. If you want to know about the logistics in what you understand the colors to be and what he says they are, then, I assume a conversation rather than a direct "why are you telling me a lie" would be best?

It is a lie because He said it is a lie, a lie which I believe as truth, yet know is a lie. As for this title regarding Him, I have come to, through this, understand it better

Is a lie the truth to you?

Maybe you having a struggle with what your brain says it supposed to be truth and what your deity says is true. If his lie is true, then two and two can't equal both four a ten. So maybe the question is, "whose truth" do you want to take up??

I'm on a limb but I think I understand what you're saying.

This is always how it goes with Him. If I do as He wills, doors open. I gain new understanding and knowledge.

That's a good motivation to not argue with him over a lie when both of you see it as true. What he says may be inconsistent or contradict what you know but that doesn't mean its a lie. Bare with me in context: Think of a person with seizures. A lot of us with seizures will do things that are inconsistent with what we say and/or believe. Instead of people listening to what we say, a lot of people put behavior first. Hence, they conclude what we say is a lie.

Inconsistency dosn't always mean lying. Take out the word lie.

It caused more to be revealed, if that makes sense.

I actually don't understand this statement.

I do think, though, that if you know X is true and your deity tells you Y is true and you believe your deity is telling the truth while maintaining what you know, you can either find knowledge and similarity in the X and Y--both letters (?) or maybe decide whose truth you are going to follow, yours or your deity's.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Hmm. Re-reading your OP, I personally will go by experience whether or not it is true. If he tells you the sky is black and the moon is green and it affects you in a positive way that you receive knowledge and information, then I wouldn't see a need to question him for his logic. If you want to know about the logistics in what you understand the colors to be and what he says they are, then, I assume a conversation rather than a direct "why are you telling me a lie" would be best?




Is a lie the truth to you?

Maybe you having a struggle with what your brain says it supposed to be truth and what your deity says is true. If his lie is true, then two and two can't equal both four a ten. So maybe the question is, "whose truth" do you want to take up??

I'm on a limb but I think I understand what you're saying.



That's a good motivation to not argue with him over a lie when both of you see it as true. What he says may be inconsistent or contradict what you know but that doesn't mean its a lie. Bare with me in context: Think of a person with seizures. A lot of us with seizures will do things that are inconsistent with what we say and/or believe. Instead of people listening to what we say, a lot of people put behavior first. Hence, they conclude what we say is a lie.

Inconsistency dosn't always mean lying. Take out the word lie.



I actually don't understand this statement.

I do think, though, that if you know X is true and your deity tells you Y is true and you believe your deity is telling the truth while maintaining what you know, you can either find knowledge and similarity in the X and Y--both letters (?) or maybe decide whose truth you are going to follow, yours or your deity's.

I believe Him. However, in this case, while I am looking outside and now, I do indeed believe the lie, that does not mean I still cling to my old understanding. Instead, I accept what He has said to be truth. While He says it is a lie which I now believe, I am not going to now argue that lie with Him. In other words, both are true and false, at different times. It is very much like doublethink from 1984, honestly.

As for new things being revealed due to my obedience of His command, indeed, that did happen. I have gained further knowledge regarding one of His many titles, that and gnosis on a subject relating. That is what I meant, it opened doors by obeying Him.

So, yes. I choose to believe Him, not lean on my own understandings. Darn! That is exactly something I lectured someone about yesterday, with me claiming that was foolish. More, I am having to accept that thing. I truly adore how my deity forces such irony. It is not the first time either. All His lessons have been many sided.

 

[YmirGF]

It is a complex bit of philosophy and having recently succeeded at this, I have come to see the immediate value. Not only did I break a major personal taboo, I also managed to alter my mind state. Just, the philosophy of this is complex to me still. How am I knowing something is a lie, believing the lie, yet not arguing that the lie is now truth? It is as if now, I believe both to be true and false at the same time.

So, in essence, you have managed to erode the imagined differences between fact and fiction, correct?

 

[ThirtyThree]

So, in essence, you have managed to erode to imagined differences between fact and fiction, correct?

Explain please?

 

[YmirGF]

Explain please?

Um, err.... ahhh....

I thought it was pretty straightforward a statement (though it did have typo - now corrected). Given that you do not seem to understand what I am saying does not bode well.
Let's try another approach.

You said that you have accepted a lie as being truth and that you now understand that it is both true and a lie (false). So.... I am asking if you have eroded, down-graded or blurred your perception of what you see as "truth" so that it is closer to fiction, thereby elevating lies in your pantheon of beliefs?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I mean, I am forbidden to discuss the lie I was told to believe as truth in public, as truth.

^ the sound of one wing flapping

 

[YmirGF]

^ the sound of one wing flapping

What I find amusing is that I've been a fair ways down the rabbit hole of inner reality and have never come across any being who commanded me to do anything or forbid me from doing anything... or was even in any position to make demands...

 

[ThirtyThree]

Um, err.... ahhh....

I thought it was pretty straightforward a statement. Given that you do not seem to understand what I am saying does not bode well.
Let's try another approach.

You said that you have accepted a lie as being truth and that you now understand that it is both true and a lie (false). So.... I am asking if you have eroded, down-graded or blurred your perception of what you see as "truth" so that it is closer to fiction, thereby elevating lies in your pantheon of beliefs?

No? I now accept that what I believed was false, outright. While He makes it clear those is a lie, He also makes it more clear that He expects me to believe it. In which case, was He lying about lying? Regardless, there premise is that I believe what He says as truth, hence why I do. If he wishes to change my belief, He can.

Did I have to alter my original belief? Yes. However, the issue was not the science behind this lie, because it exists. In fact, many believe this lie is true already, as I said. I am in no short supply of means to make the lie believable. The hardest part was overcoming my ego on the subject. I did not desire to believe in this particular lie, as it has been something I had massive contempt for, for years now.

Now, I yet again deal with this most unpleasant irony. It kills my ego, simply put. It also damages me pride, which is almost amusing to me, considering my deity IS pride.

 

[YmirGF]

No? I now accept that what I believed was false, outright. While He makes it clear those is a lie, He also makes it more clear that He expects me to believe it. In which case, was He lying about lying? Regardless, there premise is that I believe what He says as truth, hence why I do. If he wishes to change my belief, He can.

Did I have to alter my original belief? Yes. However, the issue was not the science behind this lie, because it exists. In fact, many believe this lie is true already, as I said. I am in no short supply of means to make the lie believable. The hardest part was overcoming my ego on the subject. I did not desire to believe in this particular lie, as it has been something I had massive contempt for, for years now.

Now, I yet again deal with this most unpleasant irony. It kills my ego, simply put. It also damages me pride, which is almost amusing to me, considering my deity IS pride.

Oh, my goodness... Look at the time. Things to do....

*runs for the exit^

 

[ThirtyThree]

What I find amusing is that I've been a fair ways down the rabbit hole of inner reality and have never come across any being who commanded me to do anything or forbid me from doing anything... or was even in any position to make demands...

Perhaps you never permitted yourself to accept such a thing. In my situation, I prefer to see my deity for Who He is, not Who I desire Him to be. Generally, He shows people what they wish to see and tells them what they wish to hear. Then, the thing I asked for when I made my agreement at the dawn of this long twisted road was, I wanted to know Him for Who He is, not Who I wanted Him to be. I continue to get what I asked for, whether or not I enjoy it. I maintain my loyalty, however. It is like a marriage, in a way. Till death do us part, except, death does not do us part in this case. This is a forever thing. It is something one should never do lightly.

 

[Draka]

The definition of a lie is an untruth, something which is not true. The definition of a belief is something you hold to be true. One cannot honestly, cognitively, believe in a lie they know to be a lie. One can believe in a lie if they don't know it is a lie, if they honestly believe it is the truth, but cannot actually believe in a known lie. Not without some grand cognitive dissonance going on. This type of mental gymnastics would indicate a mental instability. Something in need of psychiatric treatment.

If one knows something is a lie they know it is not true. One could not hold as true something that, at the same time, they know to be false. It is not possible within a healthy mind.

 

[Laika]

Recently I was told a lie. It was made clear to me that this was a lie. I was then told to believe the lie. I argued for some time, expressing my disdain for the command. The order was repeated, I hesitated further and then set out to comply with the command.

The result as of this morning is I now believe the lie. The curious thing, I know it to be a lie. The issue this created can be illustrated by the following example:

Your deity gives you a piece of paper with typing on it. They then tell you the entire thing was written by a pen, which they also give you. Obviously, the the print on the paper was typed. It is obvious to you. However, you are told to believe the absurdity presented. Now, your deity tells you that they are having you believe a lie.

Most would abandon such a deity. Others would refuse the order. Some would make an attempt.

The issue is this. Suppose you believe everything the deity tells you, always, based on trust. The deity makes it clear this is a lie. Therefore, you know it is a lie. You then believe the lie. You are then told, once more it is a lie. Do you now argue with your deity over the matter not being a lie, or do you believe the matter is a lie, while accepting the lie as truth?

It is a complex bit of philosophy and having recently succeeded at this, I have come to see the immediate value. Not only did I break a major personal taboo, I also managed to alter my mind state. Just, the philosophy of this is complex to me still. How am I knowing something is a lie, believing the lie, yet not arguing that the lie is now truth? It is as if now, I believe both to be true and false at the same time.

take another example. At an earlier period in history people believed that the sun orbited the Earth. We now know this is not true. As absurd as it may seem today people did believe that.

Now, it wasn't a lie. It was simply ignorance. It was the "best" explanation they had to show why the Sun moved accross the sky to explain day and night. It is clear that new ideas supersede old ones, hopefully in the basis of offering a better explanation for how the world works.

Another example to think about is conspiracy theories. Take the idea that the moon landings were a hoax. You can actually prove that we landed on the moon as scientists fire lasers up to mirrors placed at the landing sites. This helps them calculate the distance between the earth and the moon and shows that the moon is actually moving away from the earth. There are also satellite images of the landing sites (I think). Shouldnt it be obvious that it's not a hoax?

Well, no. People can say that the evidence is fake and that they are being lied to. What this shows is that knowledge is social and dependent on others, rather than exclusively individual. Our knowledge of history is a patch work of different accounts but it is made by human hands: there are areas where it's distorted and highly selective in which the "victors have written the history" or some areas are completely forgotten because no one was left (e.g Easter Island) or there are no written accounts left.

So if we go back to the moon landings someone can claim the "official" account is unreliable, and come up with a variety of reasons why it was impossible for man to go to the moon or that the technology was too primitive to pull it off. At the moment conspiracy theories are rather popular and in its way this undermines the "offical" version of history. It is very difficult to draw a clear line between actual conspiracies and ones that "could" have happened but didn't specifically because we treat so much information as unreliable.

One final thing worth thinking about is that we often take our cues based on unconscious signals such as tone of voice or eye contact and body language to figure out if someone is lying. It is actually rather easy to believe someone else's lies (and it happens to everyone so it's not a reflection on us personally). The real problem starts when you think about getting information second hand: if one person lies to your friend and your friend repeats that lie to you- they don't know it's a lie and so won't give off those signals.

In the end we rely on primary sources and evidence to find out what we know. But it comes with a recognition that they are not wholly reliable. To some extent all knowledge that we do not derive directly from our own experiences is social and build on trust.

This will probably seem mind blowing at first but you do get used to it after a while. this isn't the case of "believe nothing" but it can reopen you mind to many things that once seemed fixed and real.

Is the world round? We haven't seen all of it except in pictures have we?

 

[ThirtyThree]

Not without some grand cognitive dissonance going on. This type of mental gymnastics would indicate a mental instability. Something in need of psychiatric treatment.

Rude.

First, disorder is only what is to be treated, not what does not endanger person or other persons. Also, not what does not cause one to unable exist soffit, maintaining their responsibilities. The fact I am not speaking publicly regarding this thing He called a lie, is evidence enough there is no danger to others. Can this type of experiment damage my mind? Yes. Has it? No. I function in society the same.

In the future, consider being less judgmental and rude. It is evidence of terrible debate skill, especially in context of the original post.