Believing A Lie

[Draka]

Rude.

First, disorder is only what is to be treated, not what does not endanger person or other persons. Also, not what does not cause one to unable exist soffit, maintaining their responsibilities. The fact I am not speaking publicly regarding this thing He called a lie, is evidence enough there is no danger to others. Can this type of experiment damage my mind? Yes. Has it? No. I function in society the same.

In the future, consider being less judgmental and rude. It is evidence of terrible debate skill, especially in context of the original post.

You take as rudeness what I, and psychiatrists, take as mere fact. If me stating a fact, stating definitions and the effects of cognitive dissonance and the apt cause for such offends you, then that is not my problem. I have not come in here calling you names. I came in here stating definitions and speaking of mental states. What you take from that is your own.

 

[ThirtyThree]

You take as rudeness what I, and psychiatrists, take as mere fact. If me stating a fact, stating definitions and the effects of cognitive dissonance and the apt cause for such offends you, then that is not my problem. I have not come in here calling you names. I came in here stating definitions and speaking of mental states. What you take from that is your own.

Charming.

 

[Draka]

Look, if I hand someone a black mug and tell them it is red, and they know it is black, and I know it is black, and they say they accept that it is red and say they believe it is red at the same time they KNOW it is black then, guess what? They have a mental issue that is simply not healthy. The healthy logical mind should prevent someone from being able to both believe and not believe something at the exact same time. This is why some people have mental breakdowns. The inability to separate fact from fiction. It is a cognitive problem. A mental instability. I don't care if what they say they believe is as harmless as believing a known black mug is red, there is still a mental issue wrong with them. Just a fact.

If that fact upsets someone to hear it then that is not my problem. That's like people with red hair and freckles getting upset over the fact that such traits are genetic abnormalities. It isn't an insult, a slight, it is just a fact.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Look, if I hand someone a black mug and tell them it is red, and they know it is black, and I know it is black, and they say they accept that it is red and say they believe it is red at the same time they KNOW it is black then, guess what? They have a mental issue that is simply not healthy. The healthy logical mind should prevent someone from being able to both believe and not believe something at the exact same time. This is why some people have mental breakdowns. The inability to separate fact from fiction. It is a cognitive problem. A mental instability. I don't care if what they say they believe is as harmless as believing a known black mug is red, there is still a mental issue wrong with them. Just a fact.

If that fact upsets someone to hear it then that is not my problem. That's like people with red hair and freckles getting upset over the fact that such traits are genetic abnormalities. It isn't an insult, a slight, it is just a fact.

Rude. Case closed. You are not my judge, nor the judge of any one else here, lest they desire you to be. You do not get to decide if I have a healthy mind, or an unhealthy one. You also do not get to decide the definition of healthy or unhealthy. If you are a licensed mental health practitioner, you still can not decide these matters, lest I be face to face with you as one of your clients, and you have taken the time to get to know me, as such profession would require. If you, on the other hand, are not a mental health practitioner, kindly keep your judgments of my mental state to yourself. This is a debate, not a mental health evaluation session.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Draka It's how you approached it. Since there is no "tone of voice" online, maybe tone of words, I don't know, what you said was read as implied. It read as if the OP needed psychiatrict help. The only way people need psychiatrict help is if they are in harm to themselves, to others, or can't take care of themselves because of their mental state.

If someone is lying and I believed it to be the truth even though they said it was a lie and I go about my business to fix my egg and ham sandwhich, where in the process of a lie is true and making my sandwhich did I think to harm myself, others, or not take care of myself properly based on my belief.

People (not generalizing) have gone about their day in good health but still hear voices. They acknowledge those voices. They don't see a psychiatrist anymore because the psychiatrist is there to help people get out of psychiatrist by managing how their mental state affects them physically, others, or whether or not they can self-care if no one can do it for them.

So, how does your comment relate to the OP's issue and how is it not an insult given there is no context behind why this unhealthy (any unhealthy thinking) leads to psychiatric issues?

I mean, the DSM book doesn't say "if someone thinks two and two is fifteen, they are mentally ill." If someone has that irrational (not illogical) thought about basic math and it affected their lifestyle,others, and/or no proper self-care that is when doctors may need to come in.

However, that's like calling most people on the earth if not all psychotic.

So, I think maybe rephrase your post to help the OP or let us know how your post relates to his because I want to know myself.

 

[YmirGF]

Perhaps you never permitted yourself to accept such a thing.

I am at a loss as to why anyone would want to do such a thing. But, hey, whatever, eh?

In my situation, I prefer to see my deity for Who He is, not Who I desire Him to be.

Ah. I do not see so-called "deities" as having any reality outside the imaginations of warm and fuzzy human animals.

Generally, He shows people what they wish to see and tells them what they wish to hear.

How is that even useful? My views were continually challenged by my experiences even without some cosmic dude whispering to me.

Then, the thing I asked for when I made my agreement at the dawn of this long twisted road was, I wanted to know Him for Who He is, not Who I wanted Him to be.

Due to the nature of imagination I seriously doubt there is much difference here.

I continue to get what I asked for, whether or not I enjoy it.

Fascinating. I never knew what to expect and that is what has made my inner adventure so sublime. You never know what is going to pop up around the next corner, though to be fair, at this stage it is highly unlikely that any form of deity will arise in my future. Just not happening....

I maintain my loyalty, however. It is like a marriage, in a way. Till death do us part, except, death does not do us part in this case. This is a forever thing. It is something one should never do lightly.

While I do agree with the last sentence, I rather expect you will tire of this odd dependancy relationship in a few decades. One cannot play cat and mouse with reality forever.

This is a debate, not a mental health evaluation session.

I wouldn't bet the farm on that one.

 

[YmirGF]

You take as rudeness what I, and psychiatrists, take as mere fact. If me stating a fact, stating definitions and the effects of cognitive dissonance and the apt cause for such offends you, then that is not my problem. I have not come in here calling you names. I came in here stating definitions and speaking of mental states. What you take from that is your own.

Isn't it strange how any pushback on ideas is seen as being rude? Seriously?

 

[ThirtyThree]

Isn't it strange how any pushback on ideas is seen as being rude? Seriously?

Telling someone their relationship with their deity is a "dependency" which they will tire of after time, is rude. Especially when you know nothing about that person or their deity, or the relationship between them and their deity. Then, I am not surprised. Most Athiests I have met are rude, with few exceptions.

 

[Draka]

Look, I'm not here to play nice or assuage other people's feelings. I said what believing in known falsehoods was. I said it was an indicator of a mental instability. That it was something requiring psychiatric treatment. It's called...delusional. Suffering from delusions. To know something to be false, and yet declare a belief in it anyway, when belief is the thought that something is true, is a form of delusion. Delusion is most often a result of a psychosis. What particular psychosis a person has may vary, but it is a mental issue. An instability. Whether someone likes that fact or not is not my concern. I am not going to tip toe around someone's feelings because they don't like a fact.

In regards to the premise of this thread...
Fact: a mentally healthy individual cannot believe in something they know to be a lie.
Fact: I don't give two spits if that fact hurts someone's feelings. I'm not calling names, I'm not insulting anyone, I'm stating facts. If the facts hurt, again, not my problem.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Look, I'm not here to play nice or assuage other people's feelings. I said what believing in known falsehoods was. I said it was an indicator of a mental instability. That it was something requiring psychiatric treatment. It's called...delusional. Suffering from delusions. To know something to be false, and yet declare a belief in it anyway, when belief is the thought that something is true, is a form of delusion. Delusion is most often a result of a psychosis. What particular psychosis a person has may vary, but it is a mental issue. An instability. Whether someone likes that fact or not is not my concern. I am not going to tip toe around someone's feelings because they don't like a fact.

In regards to the premise of this thread...
Fact: a mentally healthy individual cannot believe in something they know to be a lie.
Fact: I don't give two spits if that fact hurts someone's feelings. I'm not calling names, I'm not insulting anyone, I'm stating facts. If the facts hurt, again, not my problem.

Maybe look into Religious Forum's rules then, Atheist.

 

[Draka]

Maybe look into Religious Forum's rules then, Atheist.

Haven't broken any rules. And are you trying to use Atheist as an insult? Because that would be a bit of a rule violation yourself. Duh.

 

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[ThirtyThree]

Haven't broken any rules. And are you trying to use Atheist as an insult? Because that would be a bit of a rule violation yourself. Duh.

Calling an Atheist, an Atheist, is not an insult of any measure. Nice try though.

 

[Draka]

Calling an Atheist, an Atheist, is not an insult of any measure. Nice try though.

As I'm not an atheist and yet you spew the word at me as though it has some bad connotation, after talking about atheists being rude, it seems quite likely you use it as an insult.

Again, I haven't broken any rules that I can see. I merely gave information concerning Psychology. General Psych, Abnormal Psych, Social Psych, they are fascinating subjects. If declaring facts concerning terms such as "false" "truth" "belief" "delusion" and "psychosis" and more is breaking the rules then prove it. I cannot see where what I have said is breaking any rule. Just because something upsets you because you don't like it does not mean it is an attack or an insult or that it is against the rules to say. It isn't against the rules for me to state facts that you don't like.

You going around saying that atheists are rude and seeming to use the word atheist as an insult against someone you perceive as rude though may be questionable. Especially when you take into account the person isn't an atheist. Then there is no other reason to call them such other than to try to mean it as an insult, which you seem to have been doing.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't have psychosis from a delusion (for case in point) that causes a person to think a lie is a truth. Many people are delusional. They are not psychotic nor have psychotic tendencies.

You have psychosis based on many factors.

DSM About Psychosis

Believing a lie is the truth is not a form of psychosis. Also, Delusion means when you believe X is true even though Y is true. In this case, there is an admittance that one, it is a lie, and two it is the truth. So, it's not a delusion. No direspect @ThirtyThree but Draka, if I wanted to call it anything, it would just be ill informed or maybe doesn't understand the rules of logic or morals maybe, I dont know.

It has nothing to do with psychology. Spiritual truth just isn't like that.

Okay. Me finished. It's one thing when anyone get's a fact wrong but I can see how they logically arrive to that conclusion, it's another if anyone gets the facts wrong and there is no logical conclusion.

It frustrates the mess out of me.

 

[ThirtyThree]

As I'm not an atheist and yet you spew the word at me as though it has some bad connotation, after talking about atheists being rude, it seems quite likely you use it as an insult.

Again, I haven't broken any rules that I can see. I merely gave information concerning Psychology. General Psych, Abnormal Psych, Social Psych, they are fascinating subjects. If declaring facts concerning terms such as "false" "truth" "belief" "delusion" and "psychosis" and more is breaking the rules then prove it. I cannot see where what I have said is breaking any rule. Just because something upsets you because you don't like it does not mean it is an attack or an insult or that it is against the rules to say. It isn't against the rules for me to state facts that you don't like.

You going around saying that atheists are rude and seeming to use the word atheist as an insult against someone you perceive as rude though may be questionable. Especially when you take into account the person isn't an atheist. Then there is no other reason to call them such other than to try to mean it as an insult, which you seem to have been doing.

You really are trying too hard. However, if you are not an Atheist, okay. You are just a rude individual then, better?

However, telling someone they have an unhealthy mind or this or that disorder, is an insult if you are not a mental health practitioner involved with them as a client.

As for what I said regarding the Atheists I have met, not ALL Atheists. How can that possibly be an insult?

 

[Draka]

You don't have psychosis from a delusion (for case in point) that causes a person to think a lie is a truth. Many people are delusional. They are not psychotic nor have psychotic tendencies.

You have psychosis based on many factors.

DSM About Psychosis

Delusion is a symptom of several different forms of psychosis. That's what I said. That is true.

Believing a lie is the truth is not a form of psychosis. Also, Delusion means when you believe X is true even though Y is true. In this case, there is an admittance that one, it is a lie, and two it is the truth. So, it's not a delusion. No direspect @ThirtyThree but Draka, if I wanted to call it anything, it would just be ill informed or maybe doesn't understand the rules of logic or morals maybe, I dont know.

Are you not following something here? Look, it is one thing if someone believes something that is not true if they don't know it is not true. That's just being ill-informed/ignorant. Happens all the time and that isn't delusional. It is when someone KNOWS something is false, has had it proven to them, and STILL holds it to be true AT THE SAME TIME as knowing it is false. That's delusional. That's like the point I made about the black mug. If I hand you a black mug. You know it is black, I know it is black, it is verifiably black, everyone can see it is black, and I tell you to believe it is red can you honestly believe it is red? Can you both believe it is red and KNOW it is black at the same time? No, not if your comprehension ability in your mind works the way it is supposed to. If you could say that you do believe it is red while knowing it is black there is a disconnect in your mind between reality and fiction. That is delusion.

It has nothing to do with psychology. Spiritual truth just isn't like that.

But we aren't talking spiritual truth. We are talking about someone saying they are told something is a lie and to believe in it anyway. That someone knows it is a lie, knows it is false, yet somehow chooses to believe it anyway. Read that statement again. KNOWS it is false yet chooses to believe it anyway. That is delusion.

delusion in Medicine
delusion de·lu·sion (dĭ-lōō'zhən)
n.
A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as asymptom of mental illness.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/delusion

Okay. Me finished. It's one thing when anyone get's a fact wrong but I can see how they logically arrive to that conclusion, it's another if anyone gets the facts wrong and there is no logical conclusion.

It frustrates the mess out of me.

I just don't think you are reading the same thing I am. I think you are confused as to what the point here is.

 

[Draka]

You really are trying too hard. However, if you are not an Atheist, okay. You are just a rude individual then, better?

However, telling someone they have an unhealthy mind or this or that disorder, is an insult if you are not a mental health practitioner involved with them as a client.

As for what I said regarding the Atheists I have met, not ALL Atheists. How can that possibly be an insult?

I didn't tell you personally that you have an unhealthy mind. I said the facts of the situation. What believing a certain way in certain circumstances means on a psychological level. If you take that personally so be it. As I said, I haven't called names, I haven't insulted, it's not like I'm here calling you crazy or nuts or anything. I'm just saying that to believe in something one knows and accepts as false and yet still say one has a "belief" in it is technically termed as delusional. You can call me rude all you like. Water off a duck's back and all.

 

[Draka]

Anyway, I think I'm possibly done with this. Apparently giving facts isn't welcome in this thread. Guess I'll take my "rude" self somewhere else.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I didn't tell you personally that you have an unhealthy mind. I said the facts of the situation. What believing a certain way in certain circumstances means on a psychological level. If you take that personally so be it. As I said, I haven't called names, I haven't insulted, it's not like I'm here calling you crazy or nuts or anything. I'm just saying that to believe in something one knows and accepts as false and yet still say one has a "belief" in it is technically termed as delusional. You can call me rude all you like. Water off a duck's back and all.

Oh, do not misunderstand. I am not offended in the slightest by your writing or your accusations. Amused, yes.

However, shall we get back to the original post, rather than how I might suffer from delusions, which might be part of some psychosis or another? As engaging it is, it seems the value of the exercise has been lost on you. Can we get back to that?