Believing A Lie

[ThirtyThree]

Anyway, I think I'm possibly done with this. Apparently giving facts isn't welcome in this thread. Guess I'll take my "rude" self somewhere else.

Sounds excellent.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

ou know it is black, I know it is black, it is verifiably black, everyone can see it is black, and I tell you to believe it is red can you honestly believe it is red? Can you both believe it is red and KNOW it is black at the same time?

I understand where you getting at, your delivery is confrontational.

No, I personally do not believe you can know something is true and something is a lie at the same time. I have had delusions before because of seizures; so, I know there is a difference between "knowing something is the truth even though its a lie" (delusional people know not believe) and believing something is true and a lie a the same time.

Though, I have to come back to the spiritual truth again. If we were talking about the Mug, sure, you have a point. With someone's belief system, say belief in god, it is totally different. Truth and fact are based on totally different criteria than how we see logic applied to our physical.

Make this personal so no more insults at other people.

I know my ancestors exist because I am here. I know because I have seen spirits so I know spirits (or souls of the deceased) exist.

I believe the spirits are watching over me. I believe that they tell me things in different ways so I can life better.

Is it delusional? It depends. I'd have to be a psychiatrist to know if that is true, but just based on what I typed, it may make people stratch heads but delusional is more serious. However, there is nothing wrong with being delusional.

What I got bothered with is when you mentioned psychotic. Delusion is a symptom of psychotic just as depresison, seizures, and having that de ja vu feeling. We can't call it any form of psychosis unless that person cannot function correctly because of his mental state, is in harm to others, or in harm to himself. This is personal experience.

So, I don't see how your comments relate to the OP.

What bothers me more is, isn't there another way you can express your disagreements and what you feel is psychotic an delusional thinking in a less confrontational way?

 

[Koldo]

Recently I was told a lie. It was made clear to me that this was a lie. I was then told to believe the lie. I argued for some time, expressing my disdain for the command. The order was repeated, I hesitated further and then set out to comply with the command.

The result as of this morning is I now believe the lie. The curious thing, I know it to be a lie. The issue this created can be illustrated by the following example:

Your deity gives you a piece of paper with typing on it. They then tell you the entire thing was written by a pen, which they also give you. Obviously, the the print on the paper was typed. It is obvious to you. However, you are told to believe the absurdity presented. Now, your deity tells you that they are having you believe a lie.

Most would abandon such a deity. Others would refuse the order. Some would make an attempt.

The issue is this. Suppose you believe everything the deity tells you, always, based on trust. The deity makes it clear this is a lie. Therefore, you know it is a lie. You then believe the lie. You are then told, once more it is a lie. Do you now argue with your deity over the matter not being a lie, or do you believe the matter is a lie, while accepting the lie as truth?

It is a complex bit of philosophy and having recently succeeded at this, I have come to see the immediate value. Not only did I break a major personal taboo, I also managed to alter my mind state. Just, the philosophy of this is complex to me still. How am I knowing something is a lie, believing the lie, yet not arguing that the lie is now truth? It is as if now, I believe both to be true and false at the same time.

I might entertain the idea, the lie, as if it were true. I might pretend it to be true, ignoring what I know about it. I might act as if it were true. I might even change my mind later on about, but... Holding it false and true at the same time and in the same sense is simply impossible.

 

[psychoslice]

To me personally the biggest lie ever is relgion, and the belief of a personal god.

 

[ThirtyThree]

I understand where you getting at, your delivery is confrontational.

No, I personally do not believe you can know something is true and something is a lie at the same time.

Hence why I constantly use the term "believe" and its variants, rather than "know". They are two different things. For example. I know there is a computer monitor in front of me right now and I am looking at it. I believe in a deity. If I said I know my deity exists, then I would surely have to provide evidence? I can not do that, hence why it is a belief. It is a perspective rooted in faith, not science.

 

[idav]

No, I personally do not believe you can know something is true and something is a lie at the same time.

Cause gnosis is omniscient and would feel everyones perspective..

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hence why I constantly use the term "believe" and its variants, rather than "know". They are two different things. For example. I know there is a computer monitor in front of me right now and I am looking at it. I believe in a deity. If I said I know my deity exists, then I would surely have to provide evidence? I can not do that, hence why it is a belief. It is a perspective rooted in faith, not science.

Exactly. Same with me with spirits and ancestors. You're in good company.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Cause gnosis is omniscient and would feel everyones perspective..

Can you rephrase?

 

[idav]

Can you rephrase?

When god is seeing every angle and all knowledge, they would know what it feels like to be a child or an old person. All things would be known and felt but one thing that would also be known is where ignorance is lacking causing the misconceptions and ill intentions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

When god is seeing every angle and all knowledge, they would know what it feels like to be a child or an old person. All things would be known and felt but one thing that would also be known is where ignorance is lacking causing the misconceptions and ill intentions.

I dont understand how that relates to what I said.

 

[RedDragon94]

It was made clear in that my deity told me, point blank, He was telling me a lie. He then ordered me to believe it.

Yes, there is possibly hidden meaning in the lie I was told to believe.

Sorry.

What do you think the hidden meaning might be?

 

[ThirtyThree]

Sorry.

What do you think the hidden meaning might be?

I do not yet know.