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Bergoglio and Pachamama cult
- Thread starter Estro Felino
- Start date
Maybe its time for the 'pious' leave to venture beyond the 'box' and explore the whole of something.
Pope Francis announces retrieval of indigenous statues
The Holy See Press Office has provided a transcription of Pope Francis’s remarks concerning several indigenous statues, stolen earlier this week and thrown into the Tiber River. The Holy Father spoke off-the-cuff following the liturgical prayer that opened the afternoon session of the 15th General Congregation of the Synod for the Amazon.
Pope Francis' words
Good afternoon. I want to say a word about the statues of the pachamama that were taken from the church of the Transpontina – which were there without idolatrous intentions – and were thrown into the Tiber.
First of all, this happened in Rome, and, as Bishop of the Diocese, I ask pardon of the persons who were offended by this act.
Then, I want to communicate to you that the statues which created such attention in the media, were retrieved from the Tiber. The statues were not damaged.
The Commander of the Carabinieri desires that you should be informed of this recovery before the news is made public. At the moment, the news is confidential, and the statues are being kept in the Italian Carabinieri Commander's office.
The Commander of the Carabinieri has expressed his desire to follow up on any indications that you would like to give concerning the manner of publication of the news, and any other initiative you may want to take in this regard: for example, the Commander said, “the exhibition of the statues during the Holy Mass for the closing of the Synod”. We’ll see.
I have delegated the Secretary of State to respond to this.
Pope Francis announces retrieval of indigenous statues - Vatican News
Our Lady of the Amazon: solving the contradictions
Pachamama – the missing piece of the puzzle
The reason why I started this thread was to debate tranquilly about the Synod...
I cannot deny that so many Italians here applauded the Austrian man's gesture.
Does this mean they were against the Synod? Of course not...but our churches are buildings where Christian works of art only are displayed.
Those Amazonian statues are works of art too, they are valuable for those population, but they should have been displayed elsewhere, imho.
I guess Francis looks at the larger picture.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
If everything of pagan origin was tossed into the river there wouldn't be much of catholicism left.
Explore what? Idolatry? As in this case I guess the Catholics upset about the Ganesha incident that happened a few years ago were just reactionary bigots as well. It's not as if we believe in silly things like the first commandment anymore. Or goodness forbid the sixth.
Anyway, the pope can claim innocent intent all he wants. (And he probably truly believes it). But I know idolatry when I see it. It is hard enough to keep the faith. It makes it all the harder when I see every attempt to undermine that faith and what it supposedly stands for countenanced by even the highest authorities in the church institution.
The truth so many in the Church have forgotten (or rather refuse to come to terms with) is that be a Christian is to set yourself up at implacable odds with the world as it stands. They think that if they can only find the right 'tone' the world will be more inclined to listen. If we be but more 'accommodating' (even to outright paganism) we can meet more people where they are. But that's folly. The world knows the Cross and it rejects it. We don't live in a pagan world. We live in an apostate one. Because what this is really about isn't the Amazonians and their Pachamamas. It is just the latest manifestation of a decades long project to capitulate to the world and its errors.
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Irate State
Äkta människor
At this point, the intention for integration of different flavors of religion looks like trying to fit a square form into a round socket. In the end it's just unicorn believers against dragons believers.
The way the statues were disrespectfully thrown is not appreciated tho.
The way the statues were disrespectfully thrown is not appreciated tho.
Pacman Cult Graphic T-Shirt
If the holy writings and beliefs of a religion are from God, then it makes no sense to change them, unless there is a new message for a new people, and that new message would have to be approved by God.
This was the case, the Christians believe, when they took parts of the Old Testament and made a New Testament Christian religion out of the old Jewish religion. I am not asserting that they are right or wrong.
When it comes to the belief system of others, it is not my place to say. However, when a religion is a clear danger to others, I think that we all have to speak up.
For example, the Heavens Gate religion that caused people to commit suicide so their souls would ride around on the Hale-Bopp comet for all eternity. Likely that was a sham, and caring people should at least try to make them see reason.
I think that the pope was right to try to get President W. Bush to not attack Iraq (given that Revelation said that if he attacked Iraq, the world would reap God's vengeance).
The best that we can do is state our belief, and hope that others see the logic (or faith) of our statements.
If the holy writings and beliefs of a religion are from God, then it makes no sense to change them, unless there is a new message for a new people, and that new message would have to be approved by God.
This was the case, the Christians believe, when they took parts of the Old Testament and made a New Testament Christian religion out of the old Jewish religion. I am not asserting that they are right or wrong.
When it comes to the belief system of others, it is not my place to say. However, when a religion is a clear danger to others, I think that we all have to speak up.
For example, the Heavens Gate religion that caused people to commit suicide so their souls would ride around on the Hale-Bopp comet for all eternity. Likely that was a sham, and caring people should at least try to make them see reason.
I think that the pope was right to try to get President W. Bush to not attack Iraq (given that Revelation said that if he attacked Iraq, the world would reap God's vengeance).
The best that we can do is state our belief, and hope that others see the logic (or faith) of our statements.
Idol Catholic roomer.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I think the Holy Father is right on, and that Tschugguel grossly misunderstands both the religion out of which Pachamama comes, and the spiritual tenets common to both Catholicism and Peruvian shamanism. If he understood, he would not have desecrated the gifts and the Christian concept of grace.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Respectfully, judging from the rest of your post, I don’t think you do. Idolatry imbues an artifact with deific power in and of itself. Peruvian statues have no deific power. They’re much like Orthodox icons. Catholics ascribe more power to crucifixes and statues of St. Joseph than Peruvian indigenous ascribe to statues of Pachamama. Therefore, your post throws rocks when you’re living in a glass house. Frankly, your post displays a poor understanding of the indigenous religion. There are quite a few parallels and compatible components between the two. The Pope recognizes that. The religion deserves more than to be summarily dismissed by the “pious” as “idolatrous.” Important theological parallels can be drawn between the two.
No. Idolatry is divine worship given to anything but the true God. It is not necessary to believe that cultic images in themselves hold divine power. The early Christians rather went to their deaths than burn even a single grain of incense to the emperor's image. They did not bother with the specious distinctions you make here.
I actually agree that folk Catholicism often borders on superstition. Years ago my parents were selling a property and my grandmother advised my mother to bury a statue of St. Joseph somewhere in the yard. This supposedly improves the seller's luck and it is rank superstition and a complete distortion of how Catholics should see devotional objects. Catholicism properly understood does not ascribe such power to devotional objects, yet alone to superstitious acts as I have described. They have value only insofar as they are prayers blessed by the Church.
For the Christian, cultic images be they Hindu, Chinese, Peruvian or whatever else are not prayers directed to the one and only God. They are objects of false worship and have no place in a Vatican garden yet alone a Catholic altar.
But all paganism (that is, non Abrahamic religion) is by definition idolatrous because worship is directed at that which is not God. I know that's not the 'politically correct' position but the first commandment leaves no room for compromise on this issue. That's not to say pagan religion is utterly devoid of value. That's not to say the Church cannot look at what is genuinely good in those cultures. But the worship of deities which do not exist is not one of those things.
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I think this is a debate about art. And the notion of Beauty.
John Keats used to say "Beauty is Truth", so beauty and the Divine are intertwined.
A work of art has to express the Divine, imho.
Those gifts are valuable of course, but they do not portray a deity we Christians worship. Just that.
kiwimac
Brother Napalm of God's Love
Stuff him and his bigotry.
I think you need to let God out of the box you have him packaged in, he is greater than individual religions.
If the Gospels are to be trusted and Jesus was who he claimed to be then it is not that I have put God in a box so much as God has revealed certain truths about himself and our relationship with him. If that is the case it necessarily precludes belief in the truth of any religion which does not recognize those aforementioned truths. Mutually exclusive claims cannot all be true.
Another possibility could be that the Gospels aren't strictly true in their claims of exclusivity. God in actuality accepts all sincere religion. God cares more about sincerity and virtue over what we happened to have believed in life. As we read:
O son of Kunti, even those devotees who faithfully worship other gods also worship Me. But they do so by the wrong method.
Bhagavad Gita 9:23
Chapter 9, Verse 23 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda
Bhagavad Gita 9:23
Chapter 9, Verse 23 – Bhagavad Gita, The Song of God – Swami Mukundananda
I am deeply attracted to the idea. But if I were to embrace it I would be guilty of heresy. What I would like to believe and what I am bound by religion to believe are not the same thing. And as conflicted about my faith as I often am I am not currently in a place to willfully reject clear Catholic teaching: God has revealed a specific religion with specific claims and all without exception are obligated to assent to that specific religion.
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The thing is Catholic teaching does not stagnate, it is not frozen in time or expression. Faith and religion are not one in the same as faith is our self gift received from God, our religion is an expression of that faith, and I believe the highest expression of Christian faith is Catholic.
But that does not mean that other religions are false or do not ultimately worship the one God. Whether we agree or not with a current teaching the Church remains the same teaching Church.
What we all have in common is seeking to answer the questions of life through religion.