Beyond language

[cruxette]

As a native English speaker I find the English language, frankly, to be nigh on useless in esoteric issues. I have already shown this in these threads. The first thread that I made about spiritual/religious energy was not using language to me that was adequate.

Do native speakers of other languages feel the same way?

Sometimes I think that music is a far better tool for complex, esoteric ideas. Especially when it has video added to it in a digital age. An example doesn't come to mind right now. But if I think of one I will post it.

 

[Sunstone]

The meanings of words, regardless of which language they belong to, ultimately rest to some large extent on shared experiences. If you and I both hear someone use the word "barn", and you think of a pretty painting or photo of a barn (because that's been your experience of barns), while I think of playing in my cousin's barn as a child, then the word barn means somewhat different things to us because of our different experiences of barns. The same goes for more esoteric subjects than barns.

If you have had an experience of "the oneness of all things", while I have not, no amount of your telling me what it was like is likely to really and honestly do much to clue me into what an experience of the oneness of all things is like.

But if we've both had such an experience, then we can compare and contrast our experiences.

 

[cruxette]

Once I made a formal 3000 word submission to a psychic society. They didn't really get it. I went into pretty exhaustive detail. But yes sometimes the only person who can understand an experience is the one who has had it. Though as I said in another thread my experience was based on a triangular vision/inter dimensional travel that didn't involve any words!

 

[Thief]

How about?....the creation as a reflection of it's Creator.
most of us share similar sight, sound, touch, taste and smell.....
and therefore we could develop a similar notion toward God and heaven.

I think of scripture as good stuff for the most part.....but the words get in the way.

 

[Quintessence]

As a native English speaker I find the English language, frankly, to be nigh on useless in esoteric issues. I have already shown this in these threads. The first thread that I made about spiritual/religious energy was not using language to me that was adequate.

Do native speakers of other languages feel the same way?

In a word? Yes. It's one of the reasons why I often avoid attempting to articulate this stuff on RF outside of DIRs, though I make a go at it every now and again. As @Sunstone said, part of the issue is that these things are fundamentally experiential. If someone has not had those experiences and has no basis to relate to them, they won't "get it."

Other times, the words get in the way. People have had those experiences, but then put different words to them, and don't understand they're possibly talking about the same thing. To use an example, someone who rejects the notion that there is such a thing as "coincidence" will see some particular event as mystical and meaningful. Another person can be present and have this exact same experience, but if they have a worldview that prompts them to dismiss things as "coincidence," they won't see the mystery or the meaning. But they might if prompted correctly... if they are the sort of person that can take of their glasses for a moment and put on a different pair. Good mystical traditions will do that for you, and language is an important tool for such paradigm shifts. That includes music, which you mention - a tool used since ancient times to alter states of consciousness and open the mind to other ways of seeing and knowing.

 

[dust1n]

As a native English speaker I find the English language, frankly, to be nigh on useless in esoteric issues.

I mean, if they are esoteric ideas, they never were really intended to be easily grasped by anyone easily.

 

[YmirGF]

I mean, if they are esoteric ideas, they never were really intended to be easily grasped by anyone easily.

Getting your average garden gnome to understand esoteric "truths" is actually an oxymoron.

In regards to the OP, this is why I tend to shy away from using scriptures or the writings of others to bolster my narrative - and it IS very much a narrative - a fact that escapes many writers. I far prefer to appeal to that infinitesimal spark that resides behind the eyes of the reader and appeal to their emotions thereby saving myself a whole lot of tedious explanations. People will always psychologically "paper over" what they don't understand so there is little point in laboring a given point as the point is often an approximation - ones own distortion of reality - and not the reality itself. I guess what I am suggesting is that folks get over the feeble effort to win over peoples minds. Go for their hearts and let them make up their own minds.

 

[dust1n]

Getting your average garden gnome to understand esoteric "truths" is actually an oxymoron.

In regards to the OP, this is why I tend to shy away from using scriptures or the writings of others to bolster my narrative - and it IS very much a narrative - a fact that escapes many writers. I far prefer to appeal to that infinitesimal spark that resides behind the eyes of the reader and appeal to their emotions thereby saving myself a whole lot of tedious explanations. People will always psychologically "paper over" what they don't understand so there is little point in laboring a given point as the point is often an approximation - ones own distortion of reality - and not the reality itself. I guess what I am suggesting is that folks get over the feeble effort to win over peoples minds. Go for their hearts and let them make up their own minds.

It's certainly more effective. People going about feeling most of the day, and only have so much glucose at hand to waste thinking critically, it's not very reasonable to expect people to go entirely out of their way to rigorously follow someone one's thinking. I mean, I realize people do from time to time, but I wouldn't bank on them doing so on any given event.

 

[YmirGF]

It's certainly more effective. People going about feeling most of the day, and only have so much glucose at hand to waste thinking critically, it's not very reasonable to expect people to go entirely out of their way to rigorously follow someone one's thinking. I mean, I realize people do from time to time, but I wouldn't bank on them doing so on any given event.

Part of the pitfall of trying to get people to think critically is that too often people think their message is coherent and logical or that they are great communicators. Sadly, this perception muddies the waters even further as, more often than not, such messages are neither coherent or logical and therefore are less than compelling. Likewise, it almost never occurs to people that they are lousy communicators and should perhaps leave explanations to those who exhibit higher linguistic dexterity.

 

[Quintessence]

Part of the pitfall of trying to get people to think critically is that too often people think their message is coherent and logical or that they are great communicators. Sadly, this perception muddies the waters even further as, more often than not, such messages are neither coherent or logical and therefore are less than compelling. Likewise, it almost never occurs to people that they are lousy communicators and should perhaps leave explanations to those who exhibit higher linguistic dexterity.

At least some of it is on the listener too, though. Communication, being an exchange of information, requires good listening/reading skills as much as good speaking/writing skills. Doesn't matter how good of a speaker/writer one is if the message is being lost due to the nature of the audience. It's good to remind folks that when assessing a source of information, always keep in mind the intended audience. That audience might not be us, after all!

 

[dust1n]

Part of the pitfall of trying to get people to think critically is that too often people think their message is coherent and logical or that they are great communicators. Sadly, this perception muddies the waters even further as, more often than not, such messages are neither coherent or logical and therefore are less than compelling. Likewise, it almost never occurs to people that they are lousy communicators and should perhaps leave explanations to those who exhibit higher linguistic dexterity.

It's very true. I feel like most people come to terms with it. But then again, everyone once in awhile your come across an arrogance that is so profoundly contrary to any self-awareness, as to land in that pitfall over and over...

 

[dust1n]

At least some of it is on the listener too, though. Communication, being an exchange of information, requires good listening/reading skills as much as good speaking/writing skills. Doesn't matter how good of a speaker/writer one is if the message is being lost due to the nature of the audience. It's good to remind folks that when assessing a source of information, always keep in mind the intended audience. That audience might not be us, after all!

It is really true. When I started working for a student newspaper, I was sort of shocked at just how bad of writers so many students were. But it might not even be as omnipresent as just how carefully people read things and what they get from it. I mean, anyone skimming and reading fast is going to make mistakes. Others though simply have no tolerance for digesting any written material.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I find that "esoteric" is generally a placeholder for "vague and unclear." I find nothing is beyond both communication and understanding when clarity of thought is combined with decent language skills.

 

[Quagmire]

As a native English speaker I find the English language, frankly, to be nigh on useless in esoteric issues. I have already shown this in these threads. The first thread that I made about spiritual/religious energy was not using language to me that was adequate.

Do native speakers of other languages feel the same way?

Sometimes I think that music is a far better tool for complex, esoteric ideas. Especially when it has video added to it in a digital age. An example doesn't come to mind right now. But if I think of one I will post it.

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.
The Tao that can be played on the harmonica . . might be.

 

[Quagmire]

I find that "esoteric" is generally a placeholder for "vague and unclear." I find nothing is beyond both communication and understanding when clarity of thought is combined with decent language skills.

All words are placeholders, that's the problem.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

All words are placeholders, that's the problem.

Well, I prefer to use brown sugar, but you can use regular cane sugar as well.

 

[Quagmire]

Well, I prefer to use brown sugar, but you can use regular cane sugar as well.

Brown sugar is cane sugar.

It's also a song by the Rolling Stones.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Brown sugar is cane sugar.

Exactly.

 

[Quagmire]

Exactly.

The distinctions are really just a matter of refinement vs purity.

 

[sun rise]

The Tao that can be spoken of is not the Tao.
The Tao that can be played on the harmonica . . might be.

Ladinsky rendering of Hafiz wrote much the same thing:

Someone Should Start Laughing

I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question:

How are you?

I have a thousand brilliant lies
For the question:

What is God?

If you think that the Truth can be known
From words,

If you think that the Sun and the Ocean

Can pass through that tiny opening
Called the mouth,

O someone should start laughing!

Someone should start wildly Laughing -
Now!