Bhagavad Gita (Hindus Only)

[Sumit]

God is always perfect. He does not become a material body but always remains a spiritual being.

I think Krishna and Rama both had parents and both lead a married life, both had children. Than how can you say that they do not have material body . All though both were great personalities .

Only as a spiritual body is he able to transform to show Arjuna his Universal Form. A material body could not do this. A material body cannot be transcendental.

It was not due to that spiritual body but it was due to self realisation.

You see you keep distorting the wording and the wording makes all the difference. The soul is not God. Prakriti is not God. The universe is not God.

BUT. Change the wording.

God is the soul. God is Prakriti. God is the universe.

If you remove one word *not* than meaning will definitely change

In other words, God is everything that exists. But one can never say that one element of existence is God, because God refers to both the Source of all things, the Creator, and every aspect of it. But each individual part of existence is only a tiny part of God, not God itself.

All of the scriptures point to this. All of them.

Ok, take a flashback to our previous comments and answer these questions. The answers should not go against other each other.

Q1- You believes that god created everything, it’s true but you also said that everything comes from god and you further said prakriti and soul both are parts of god. Now just tell me Is god free from all type of desires, all type of ignorance?

Q2- I hope your ans is “god is free from all type of desires, all type of ignorance” and the same is true. This shows god is pure. Now as god is source of both prakriti and soul(acc to you) than please tell me did the god divide itself to create all this Universe as there was nothing before god??
Q3 is Optional
Q3- Now if you say that god divided itself than please tell me why we are ignorant? Why we are under the effect of illusion. How can a part of god can be under the effect of illusion. This also simply indicates that all Kauravas in the battlefield were also a part of god. Now imagine a god fighting against it’s own parts in battlefield and the reason is that it’s own parts (Kauravas) are performing bad deeds and were against it’s own part pandavas.
OR
Q3- If you still say that god did not divided itself and still created everything and everything is still a part of god than this simply means that everything is just one and that is god. And this is even much worst as here complete god is ignorant and under illusion.

This is from Rig Veda:

1. A THOUSAND heads hath Puruṣa, a thousand eyes, a thousand feet.
On every side pervading earth he fills a space ten fingers wide.
2 This Puruṣa is all that yet hath been and all that is to be;

It does not proves the concept of avatars but only shows the omnipresence of god.
Read chapter 40of yajurveda for concept of creation.
Also here are some examples from vedas.

Of god there is no image (Yajur Veda 32/3)

Verily god is one Single, indivisible, supreme reality. - Atharva Veda 13/4/20

God is unborn and always maintain One single identity - yajurveda 34.53

Do you agree that everything is Brahman?

No :no:

God would only be lesser if he came under ignorance without the will to do so.

Your comment shows that god is not free from desires. :disco:

I will repeat. The soul is not God.

Flashback

God is the soul. God is Prakriti. God is the universe

And while the soul is conditioned by Maya, God remains unaffected still in his original position. He is both the doer or actor (atma) and the observer(paramatma, residing in the 'heart' of the individual as the Supreme observer of all)

Observe your statement once again
* God remains unaffected still in his original position :angel2:
* He is both the doer or actor (atma) and the observer(paramatma) :run:
* soul is conditioned by Maya, :guitar1:
* I will repeat. The soul is not God
*God is the soul. God is Prakriti. God is the universe
*In other words, God is everything that exists.:banghead3

 

[Krishna Chaitanya]

Please Explain what krishna means when he say

"Whenever there is decay

of righteousness O! Bharatha

And a rise of unrighteousness

then I manifest Myself!"

Hi Sumit,

That's a nice question. If we need to understand this, we need to understand the context as well. For example, in the next verse Krishna mentions,

"In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium."

Now, when a speaker makes statements, these can be either literal (or) figurative depending on the context of usage.

Suppose, someone wants to take a literal meaning of it (that he manifests in his spiritual sat-cid-ananda form), then from 4.7, 4.8 one comes to the conclusion that GOD descends whenever there is rise of unrighteousness and the latter occurs every yuga. This is obviously falsifiable since the rise of unrighteousness is not necessarily periodic (as it involves "free" will of living entities).

I would certainly infer from the above literal non-contextual interpretation that the either the assumption is misleading (or) the scripture is falliable. But I stick to the former since from various other sources in scriptures (as well as events) I arrive at the same conclusion. In other words, my take on the literal sense of the verse in the above portrayed form is not correct.

So, my opinion on the verse (in the footsteps of previous acaryas) is that - this is to be understood based on context: i.e. When Krishna says I manifest myself, it means that he "manifests himself in various ways". This manifestation occurs through some medium (let's term this medium as 'messenger') and thus the messenger becomes Godly (an instrument of GOD and NOT GOD) just like an iron rod in contact with fire becomes red hot like fire. In a sense, the messenger is as good as God, but not God.

Now, an exaggeration of this figurative sense is when the verses are taken out of context. For example, when Krishna says "sarva dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja", some one may say that it refers to the un-manifest within Krishna. But then, he clearly says "mam ekam" - means "ONLY ME" (and no one else).

So, my conclusion is that - The context, Type of expression 'literal or figurative' (based on the flow of thoughts until then and the mood of the speaker) are certain things that need to be taken into consideration before one tries to understand the verses of the Bhagavad Gita. That is why, we need bona fide commentaries (of those who have understood both the mood of Krishna and the context of the verses) and the efficacy of a commentary is its ability to transform hearts in stead of just giving some information to make people comfortably situated in the material world.

Hope this helps!

Thanks,
Chaitanya

 

[Madhuri]

Observe your statement once again
* God remains unaffected still in his original position
* He is both the doer or actor (atma) and the observer(paramatma)
* soul is conditioned by Maya,
* I will repeat. The soul is not God
*God is the soul. God is Prakriti. God is the universe
*In other words, God is everything that exists.

I don't think you are taking much time to contemplate my answers since you are repeating yourself a lot and asking questions I have already given answers to.

As for the above, yes that is correct and absolutely supported by the Vedas, Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita.

This is a complicated topic but it is not too difficult to understand. Brahman/Bhagavan is not the monotheistic God of abrahamic religions. Instead he creates everything from his own self. Nothing exists other than God. The only way that something can be separate from God, not made of God, is for something besides God to exists eternally, externally and separately from him. Think on that.

And because you still seem to have trouble with the difference between 'God is this' vs 'This is God', let me use this simple metaphor.

If God is a tree, we are it's leaves.
But you cannot say that the leaves are the tree.

In other words, each individual is part of the Supreme, but you cannot say you are God.

 

[Madhuri]

From Isha Upanishad, which is the final chapter of the Shukla Yajurveda, the 40th chapter you must be referring to:

5. That moves and That moves not; That is far and the same is near; That is within all this and That also is outside all this.


6. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.


7. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that are Becomings,[7] for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness?


8. It is He that has gone abroad—That which is bright, bodi-less, without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The Seer, the Thinker,[8] the One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly according to their nature from years sempiternal.

 

[Madhuri]

From the Purushamedha, part of the Yajurveda:

1. Purusha Nârâyana desired, 'Would that I overpassed all beings! would that I alone were everything here (this universe)!' He beheld this five-days’ sacrificial performance, the Purushamedha, and took it 1, and performed offering therewith; and having performed offering therewith, he overpassed all beings, and became everything here. And, verily, he who, knowing this, performs the Purushamedha, or who even knows this, overpasses all beings, and becomes everything here.

 

[Madhuri]

Of god there is no image (Yajur Veda 32/3)

Verily god is one Single, indivisible, supreme reality. - Atharva Veda 13/4/20

God is unborn and always maintain One single identity - yajurveda 34.53

Yajur Veda 32:3

""There is no counterpart of him (Purusha) whose glory verily is great.
In the beginning rose Hiranyagarbha, etc. Let not him
harm me, etc. Than whom there is no other born, etc."

Yajur Veda 34.53

"Let Ahibudhnya also hear our calling, and Aja-Ekapâd and
Earth and Ocean.
All Gods Law-strengtheners, invoked and lauded, and Texts
recited by the sages, help us!"

Atharva Veda 13:4:20

"This conquering might hath entered him. He is the sole, the
simple One, the One alone,"

Have you read this whole chapter from the Atharva Veda? He lists various gods and says that they are all Him:

"Creator and Ordainer, he is Vāyu, he is lifted cloud.
4Rudra, and Mahādeva, he is Aryaman and Varuna.
5Agni is he, and Siirya, he is verily Mahāyama.
..
This conquering might hath entered him, He is the sole the
simple One, the One alone.
13In him these Deities become simple and One"

later...

"Such is thy greatness, liberal Lord! A hundred bodily forms are
thine.
45Millions are in thy million, or thou art a billion in thyself."

Somewhere in between:

"Devotion and Religious Fervour, and renown and glory, and
force and cloud, the Brāhman's splendour, and food and
nourishment.
23And past and future, and Faith and lustre, and heaven and sweet
oblation,
24To him who knoweth this God as simple and One.
25He, verily, is death, he is immortality, he is the monster, he is
the fiend."

 

[Sumit]

I don't think you are taking much time to contemplate my answers since you are repeating yourself a lot and asking questions I have already given answers to.

I took enough time to examine your answer, I am reapeting My ques because I didn’t get answer of my ques. You different statements are against each other. Have a look
You said

* He is both the doer or actor (atma)

You reffred atma as god
Than you said

soul is conditioned by Maya

Now this shows that god is conditioned by Maya, Is it possible?
Now your other statements

I will repeat. The soul is not God

Now here are other two

God is the soul. God is Prakriti. God is the universe

“

In other words, God is everything that exists.

Bhagavan is not the monotheistic God of abrahamic religions.

Vedic religion is monotheistic. But the Abrahamic Allah is not the vedic god.

Instead he creates everything from his own self. Nothing exists other than God. The only way that something can be separate from God, not made of God, is for something besides God to exists eternally, externally and separately from him. Think on that.

I already said “God, Soul and Prakriti are three eternal entities that always existed and will always exist”.

If God is a tree, we are it's leaves.
But you cannot say that the leaves are the tree.

In other words, each individual is part of the Supreme, but you cannot say you are God.

This example is wrong as tree is a material cause of leaves and tree itself is a material. Also without leaves tree is incomplete, tree depends on leaves for it’s surrvival but in case of god it is always complete, It does not depends on us for it’s existence. So your statement only supports the existence of Prakriti.

the 40th chapter you must be referring to:

5. That moves and That moves not; That is far and the same is near; That is within all this and That also is outside all this.


6. But he who sees everywhere the Self in all existences and all existences in the Self, shrinks not thereafter from aught.


7. He in whom it is the Self-Being that has become all existences that are Becomings,[7] for he has the perfect knowledge, how shall he be deluded, whence shall he have grief who sees everywhere oneness?


8. It is He that has gone abroad—That which is bright, bodi-less, without scar of imperfection, without sinews, pure, unpierced by evil. The Seer, the Thinker,[8] the One who becomes everywhere, the Self-existent has ordered objects perfectly according to their nature from years sempiternal.

I mean complete chapter here. I have yajurveda hindi bhashya with word to word trnslation frm sanskrit. It is a large chapter and will take time to translate in Engilsh (However I am poor in english). I will try to translate in english in free time and than post it in Hindu Dir.

Yajur Veda 32:3

""There is no counterpart of him (Purusha) whose glory verily is great.
In the beginning rose Hiranyagarbha, etc. Let not him
harm me, etc. Than whom there is no other born, etc."

Mantra 32:3 is
Na Tasya PratimaAsti yasya namaamahadshya
Hirangarvmadhaysh ma ma hasidityasha yasmatra jatityasha

Meaning- O humans, there is no image, no form, no idols of it.
It is glorious and worshiped

Cause of present
It never dies, never distorted and never destroyed
And is only one that is to be worshiped
Following it’s order is it’s worship

Yajur Veda 34.53

"Let Ahibudhnya also hear our calling, and Aja-Ekapâd and
Earth and Ocean.
All Gods Law-strengtheners, invoked and lauded, and Texts
recited by the sages, help us!"

First of all here is no word like “all god”, It’s all devtas, there is a large difference between god and devtas. Devtas means one that is virtuous. Also a knowledgeable person (Rishis), parents are also devtas but none of them can be God. Here is that verse-
Uth noahibhudhanya shrnotwajaekpaat prithvi samudraha
Vishway devaari****avridho huwanah stutaa mantrah kavishastaaavantu

A Meaning- O human as the earth, ocean, clouds and that who is unborn (god) protects us.
In the similar way knowledge and knowledgeable person (sages) helps us.

Atharva Veda 13:4:20

"This conquering might hath entered him. He is the sole, the
simple One, the One alone,"

Have you read this whole chapter from the Atharva Veda? He lists various gods and says that they are all Him:

"Creator and Ordainer, he is Vāyu, he is lifted cloud.
4Rudra, and Mahādeva, he is Aryaman and Varuna.
5Agni is he, and Siirya, he is verily Mahāyama.
..
This conquering might hath entered him, He is the sole the
simple One, the One alone.
13In him these Deities become simple and One"

later...

"Such is thy greatness, liberal Lord! A hundred bodily forms are
thine.
45Millions are in thy million, or thou art a billion in thyself."

Somewhere in between:

"Devotion and Religious Fervour, and renown and glory, and
force and cloud, the Brāhman's splendour, and food and
nourishment.
23And past and future, and Faith and lustre, and heaven and sweet
oblation,
24To him who knoweth this God as simple and One.
25He, verily, is death, he is immortality, he is the monster, he is
the fiend."

You said that “Atharva Veda lists various gods and says that they are all Him”
It’s wrong. Various name here represent same god. See what Yajurveda 32/1 say

O humans, It is omnipresent, one without beginning or end, pure, free, justice loving, responsible for present form of Universe, knows everything. It is all illuminated and everlasting source of Knowledge so it is Agni. It is the preserver of all so its Adityah, it is powerful and omnipresent so it’s Vayu. It’s the source of all pleasure so its Chandra. It is great so it’s Brahma. And it is guardian of all so it is prajapati. (Yajurveda 32/1)

:angel2::angel2::angel2:

 

[Madhuri]

I took enough time to examine your answer, I am reapeting My ques because I didn’t get answer of my ques. You different statements are against each other. Have a look

'Soul is conditioned by Maya'. You replied with the question, can God be conditioned by Maya?

One aspect of God, the souls, can be conditioned by another aspect of God, Maya.

Vedic religion is monotheistic. But the Abrahamic Allah is not the vedic god.

I personally believe that the Vedic religion is panentheistic, which is a type of monotheism.

I already said “God, Soul and Prakriti are three eternal entities that always existed and will always exist”.

If you believe that the souls or prakriti are eternal but are not part of God then you are saying that there are things which exist beside God and that are uncreated. But the souls, the material universe and prakriti are all manifestations of his energies or represent some of his energies. This is why they are 'inside' God, not outside.

This example is wrong as tree is a material cause of leaves and tree itself is a material. Also without leaves tree is incomplete, tree depends on leaves for it’s surrvival but in case of god it is always complete, It does not depends on us for it’s existence. So your statement only supports the existence of Prakriti.

You are too literal. The example of a tree is to point out that a leaf is part of the tree just like a soul (individual) is part of the Supersoul (God) but that the leaf itself is the not tree just as the soul is not God.

If you still cannot understand this simple concept then I bow out of this conversation.

 

[Sumit]

One aspect of God, the souls, can be conditioned by another aspect of God, Maya.

God is always same without any change.

I personally believe that the Vedic religion is panentheistic, which is a type of monotheism.

However vedas declare it monotheistic. reach:

If you believe that the souls or prakriti are eternal but are not part of God then you are saying that there are things which exist beside God and that are uncreated. But the souls, the material universe and prakriti are all manifestations of his energies or represent some of his energies. This is why they are 'inside' God, not outside.

This is against vedas as I described in previous mantras.

You are too literal. The example of a tree is to point out that a leaf is part of the tree just like a soul (individual) is part of the Supersoul (God) but that the leaf itself is the not tree just as the soul is not God.

Sorry but the example here proves nothing as Tree and leaves both depends on each other for their existence but in case of god and soul the same is not applied they both are anadi.

If you still cannot understand this simple concept then I bow out of this conversation.

Understanding is based on facts and proves :yes:. However you still tried to answer, may be I need some more efforts :redx: and that is why I ask questions. olarbaby:

 

[Madhuri]

I think we just agree to disagree here.

 

[nameless]

Please Explain what krishna means when he say

"Whenever there is decay

of righteousness O! Bharatha

And a rise of unrighteousness

then I manifest Myself!"

Reality will make someone enlightened, so there will be a Guru, and he removes darkness and restores dharma. Just my understanding.

 

[Sumit]

Reality will make someone enlightened, and he removes darkness and restores dharma.

This is what I believe. Conditions makes people enlightened and their actions makes them hero.

 

[Poeticus]

Namaste,

No one likes me, because I am a polytheist. :sad4: :sad4: :sad4:

M.V.

 

[ratikala]

Namaste,

No one likes me, because I am a polytheist. :sad4: :sad4: :sad4:

M.V.

and sri krsna displays his vishvarupa ......:namaste

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Please Explain what krishna means when he say

"Whenever there is decay

of righteousness O! Bharatha

And a rise of unrighteousness

then I manifest Myself!"

I think he means that a Yogi Atma always appears (Or takes birth) to put things right. That is my take on it

 

[Satyamavejayanti]

Just realized this is a old thread...

Things you realize sometimes make a fool out of you,,, ie me,..

 

[Sumit]

Namaste,

No one likes me, because I am a polytheist. :sad4: :sad4: :sad4:

M.V.

You again started crying.
Being a monotheist does not mean that we do not like polytheist. So be happy. :woohoo:

I think he means that a Yogi Atma always appears (Or takes birth) to put things right. That is my take on it

That's true