Bhedabheda vs. Advaita

[Aupmanyav]

Testimony of past or present reliable experts ( Sabda ) is considered as one of the six pramanas used as correct means of gaining accurate knowledge and understanding of truth.

Have you ever wondered why you never could quote any experts with respect to your so-called experience!

My experience is samadhi. And in samadhi all entanglements and confusions of the intellect ends, as you see non-conceptual reality as it is.

Pramanas vary with the philosophy. To some 'Sabda' is a pramana, to others not.

Why I have been quoting the Upanishads, Sankara and Buddha! Even Sri Rama Charit Manas, BhagawadGita and Bhagawat Purana.They are my beacons. Though I am not in the habit of remembering verses, I concentrate on the meaning.

I agree Samadhi is that, but the reality that you arrive at may be different from the reality that I arrive at. I arrived at a non-theist, non-conscious, uninvolved Brahman which just exists (to create all phenomena in the universe just by its existence). As I told you our brains give us the reality which we want to believe. That is why, it is necessary to check it with physical sciences.

 

[ajay0]

Pramanas vary with the philosophy. To some 'Sabda' is a pramana, to others not.

Advaita Vedanta philosophy holds 'Sabda' as useful.

Why I have been quoting the Upanishads, Sankara and Buddha! Even Sri Rama Charit Manas, BhagawadGita and Bhagawat Purana.They are my beacons. Though I am not in the habit of remembering verses, I concentrate on the meaning.

Subject to your personal interpretations.

I agree Samadhi is that, but the reality that you arrive at may be different from the reality that I arrive at. I arrived at a non-theist, non-conscious, uninvolved Brahman which just exists (to create all phenomena in the universe just by its existence). As I told you our brains give us the reality which we want to believe. That is why, it is necessary to check it with physical sciences.

How can you agree Samadhi is that when you have not even experienced it on your own, except in vague imaginary speculation based on what other advaitan masters have stated on this!

Reality is one, but its interpretations are many.

And it is samadhi that enables one to understand that one reality, bereft of the influence of any conditioned background.

 

[Shantanu]

The philosophers sit in their ashrams and hermitage seclusion and let thoughts come to their mind. It is when you have to live in the real world with its harsh realities that one is better able to know what is true and what is false.

 

[ajay0]

The philosophers sit in their ashrams and hermitage seclusion and let thoughts come to their mind. It is when you have to live in the real world with its harsh realities that one is better able to know what is true and what is false.

Janaka was an enlightened king mentioned in the ashtavakra gita , bhagavad gita and vedas.

Even then Ramakrishna had remarked that he had performed a lot of austerity and study in his youth under the guidance of his spiriual teachers, which enabled him to keep his mental equanimity stable as king while dealing with the harsh realities of the chaotic world, and thus properly discriminating between the false and true, and attaining enlightenment as a karma yogi through action performed without any egocentric desires.

 

[Shantanu]

Janaka was an enlightened king mentioned in the ashtavakra gita , bhagavad gita and vedas.

Even then Ramakrishna had remarked that he had performed a lot of austerity and study in his youth under the guidance of his spiriual teachers, which enabled him to keep his mental equanimity stable as king while dealing with the harsh realities of the chaotic world, and thus properly discriminating between the false and true, and attaining enlightenment as a karma yogi through action performed without any egocentric desires.

It is when one runs into pure evil which prevents one from living a peaceful life that the reality of who God is is investigated, as you should be able to appreciate from a study of the epics the Mahabharatta and Ramayana.

 

[ajay0]

It is when one runs into pure evil which prevents one from living a peaceful life that the reality of who God is is investigated, as you should be able to appreciate from a study of the epics the Mahabharatta and Ramayana.

As per Aurobindo , ' Evil is but ignorance, misapplication and ill-health.'


You can get rid of the evil in your life by proper study and application, along with cultivating good health.

It is also important to avoid bad company in this regard as well, as your company usually fashions the kind of person you are.

 

[Shantanu]

As per Aurobindo , ' Evil is but ignorance, misapplication and ill-health.'


You can get rid of the evil in your life by proper study and application, along with cultivating good health.

It is also important to avoid bad company in this regard as well, as your company usually fashions the kind of person you are.

Evil is made of dark forces that generate adharma which gives people wicked intentions to harm others living peacefully in order to live to high materialism, and it cannot be eradicated by the means you suggest as it is ingrained and is born of the tamasic guna taking its cues from this aspect of consciousness. The only way to deal with evil is for sattvic guna people to pray for divine guidance in order to squash it. And luckily as it says in the Bhagavad Gita, God will make this happen from yuga to yuga when adharma becomes the norm because evil has had it too good for too long and has become widespread.

 

[ajay0]

Evil is made of dark forces that generate adharma which gives people wicked intentions to harm others living peacefully in order to live to high materialism, and it cannot be eradicated by the means you suggest as it is ingrained and is born of the tamasic guna taking its cues from this aspect of consciousness. The only way to deal with evil is for sattvic guna people to pray for divine guidance in order to squash it. And luckily as it says in the Bhagavad Gita, God will make this happen from yuga to yuga when adharma becomes the norm because evil has had it too good for too long and has become widespread.

Well, I stand with Aurobindo's saying on the nature of evil.

Evil, imho , is usually self-created than created from outside.

I know of some guys who lost their health after gullibly taking the services of a quack doctor without prior researching. Same with other people who took the services of other quacks as well gullibly.

Similarly, I know of some people who became dunces after reading,hearing and adhering to the superficial works and books of other dunces and paid for it tragically with their careers and reputation. Hence the need to be prudent and circumspect in this regard too. Many fall for charismatic cult leaders in this manner due to their persuasive tactics.

Poor mental health has been stated to be the reason for Andreas Lubitz's actions, the co-pilot accused of purposely crashing Germanwings Flight 9525 into the French Alps. Poor mental health of the copilot Zaharie Ahmad Shah is also stated to be a reason for the mysterious disappearance of the Malaysia Airlines Flight 370.

Hence the reason why I feel evil is but a byproduct of ignorance, misapplication and ill-health.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Pure consciousness or Self is that which is unchanging at all times.

Ajay0, what is your proof for that?

A time will soon come when educated Hindus will disbelieve that. They too will ask for proof. Saying that it is written in scriptures or that you realized this while being in a Samadhi or that such a such person said that, however highly you may regard him, will not be sufficient. It is happening in the Christian world. People have lost faith in religion (List of countries by irreligion - Wikipedia).

It will happen in India too. You will need to give them better proof. You have to define spirituality in a new way. Hinduism has everything, but it has to be defined in a new way. The old ways will only harm Hinduism.

This was something that I had not answered from your old posts. By your conservative thoughts you are harming Hinduism.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Advaita borrowed this concept of an unreal world from Buddhism

Well, when a person is talking about a school of Buddhism that thinks the world is unreal I suppose. Most Mahayana schools do not think that, but essentially think the senses are misleading about the world. However, I agree with you that Shankara appears influenced by Buddhism. I think we have to be careful how strongly we emphasize that though because Shankara ultimately rejected following Buddhism. He couldn't find it in himself to reject the Vedas, which Buddhism definitely does, but not in the way lay people often think.

 

[Buddha Dharma]

Well, I stand with Aurobindo's saying on the nature of evil.

Isn't Aurobindo critical of Advaita and accused Shankara of being a crypto-Buddhist?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Advaita Vedanta philosophy holds 'Sabda' as useful.

Sure, Sabda can be useful, but not without verification.

Subject to your personal interpretations.

That holds true for how you choose to interpret them too.

How can you agree Samadhi is that when you have not even experienced it on your own, except in vague imaginary speculation based on what other advaita masters have stated on this!

Samādhi is when the mind becomes still. It is a state of being totally aware of the present moment; a one-pointedness of mind. I have experienced what all is to be experienced. But if your brain gives a picture of reality which is not consistent with science, then it is only a hallucination. If you get a picture of reality in Samadhi, then you should be able to explain it minutely in words. Just claiming that you have realized it but cannot explain it is quackery.

 

[ajay0]

Ajay0, what is your proof for that?

The teachings of the ancient scriptures, medieval and modern enlightened masters irrespective of nationality, religion and culture who testified to the same. I have mentioned them in previous posts in this thread.

I have also personally conversed with enlightened sages in this regard who testified to the same.

My own personal experiential understanding gained through samadhi is also proof for me in this regard.

A time will soon come when educated Hindus will disbelieve that. They too will ask for proof. Saying that it is written in scriptures or that you realized this while being in a Samadhi or that such a such person said that, however highly you may regard him, will not be sufficient. It is happening in the Christian world. People have lost faith in religion (List of countries by irreligion - Wikipedia).

I am an educated Hindu but I have faith in it. And so do many other Hindus who are better educated than you are.

Imo, at this old age, it is hard for you to gain understanding through meditation and samadhi after not exerting for the same in your youth, whereas other healthy and virile youngsters are attaining the same through their diligent effort. It is still possible in old age, provided one is necessary to give the necessary diligent effort proportionate to the objective.

People are losing faith in religion in the western world, as it is mainly based on conditioned belief, whereas advaita is based on direct perception through meditation and samadhi, through the intellectual foundation provided by philosophical analysis of Neti-neti , based on negation of all that is unreal.

Since you do no know Neti-neti, meditation and samadhi, it is obviously and understandably convenient for you to negate ironically Neti-neti itself, along with meditation and samadhi, and pose as an advaitan to dupe the ignorant.

It will happen in India too. You will need to give them better proof. You have to define spirituality in a new way. Hinduism has everything, but it has to be defined in a new way. The old ways will only harm Hinduism.

Proof will be obtained by those who are ready to travel and meet sages, saints , scholars or study under advaitan institutions. Not by those who are armchair speculators.

I used to travel 50 km a day daily for satsang with an enlightened sage.

This was something that I had not answered from your old posts. By your conservative thoughts you are harming Hinduism.

I would say, you are doing tremondous damage to Hinduism with your deluded thoughts, for which you were subjected to criticism in the Hindu Dharma Forums, in the introductory thread itself when you expounded your pseduo-advaitan views.

 

[ajay0]

Sure, Sabda can be useful, but not without verification.

Sabda is an accepted pramana in Hinduism, especially those of scriptures and enlightened sages.

Advaita is personally verified by samadhi, and especially nirvikalpa samadhi.

That holds true for how you choose to interpret them too.Samādhi is when the mind becomes still. It is a state of being totally aware of the present moment; a one-pointedness of mind. I have experienced what all is to be experienced.

In samadhi, the mind is still and thoughtless for a substantial period of time, followed with great bliss and joy.
In Nirvikalpa samadhi, this becomes a permanent state.

Vague speculation and imagination based on what other sages stated, does not make up for actual experience of it , no matter how much you insist.

But if your brain gives a picture of reality which is not consistent with science, then it is only a hallucination. If you get a picture of reality in Samadhi, then you should be able to explain it minutely in words. Just claiming that you have realized it but cannot explain it is quackery.

This itself shows that you have no experiential understanding of advaita or samadhi , and merely pouring your delusionary ideas of it here.

Direct perception is an empirical observation in itself.

As the Kena upanishad states, " That which is not uttered by speech, that by which the word is expressed, know That alone to be Brahman, and not this which is being worshipped. "

 

[Aupmanyav]

I am an educated Hindu but I have faith in it. And so do many other Hindus who are better educated than you are.

Imo, at this old age, it is hard for you to gain understanding through meditation and samadhi after not exerting for the same in your youth, whereas other healthy and virile youngsters are attaining the same through their diligent effort. It is still possible in old age, provided one is necessary to give the necessary diligent effort proportionate to the objective.

You say you are an educated person. IMHO, only an ignorant and conceited person can write what you have written here.

 

[ajay0]

You say you are an educated person. IMHO, only an ignorant and conceited person can write what you have written here.

That is your personal viewpoint. Most people are of the viewpoint the above applies to you. Surely all these people can't be wrong .


Also, the older one grows, the harder it becomes to perform meditation and attain samadhi without prior training in youth. This is a fact of life.

There are exceptions to this, but generally it is hard.

Almost in the same manner as climbing Mount Everest or running a mile in 5 minutes or going for the Ironman championship at old age.

Those who have a prior foundation in youth with consistent followup can do the above perhaps in old age. But it is very hard for those who are first-timers. Such will have to give a lot of effort proportionate to attaining the objective than the experienced or seasoned. But obviously it is worth it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

That is your personal viewpoint.

Of course, it is my peronal view point. If others disagree, that is none of my concern. I have shown you that original Vaisheshika philoophy did not accept Vedas as pramana. "Of these Vaiśeṣika epistemology considered only pratyakṣa (perception) and anumāna (inference) as reliable means of valid knowledge" (Vaisheshika - Wikipedia). Sabda is as good as anumāna unless the evidence exists. Whatever other trash you write does not change this.

My own personal experiential understanding gained through samadhi is also proof for me in this regard.

Personal experience has zero value as proof. Again the personal experience of even the greatest of sages, what to talk about you, has zero value, unless they have evidence to confirm what they say. Do you know that Lord Shiva is right now sitting beside me. Now don't say it is not true. It is not your experience.

 

[ajay0]

Of course, it is my peronal view point. If others disagree, that is none of my concern. I have shown you that original Vaisheshika philoophy did not accept Vedas as pramana. "Of these Vaiśeṣika epistemology considered only pratyakṣa (perception) and anumāna (inference) as reliable means of valid knowledge" (Vaisheshika - Wikipedia). Sabda is as good as anumāna unless the evidence exists. Whatever other trash you write does not change this.

The vaisheshika philosophy as taught by Rishi Kanada, as shown in the Vaisheshika Sutra do accept meditation and samadhi, which you reject.

Similarly the vaisheshika sutra also emphasizes the importance of the vedas.

Personal experience has zero value as proof. Again the personal experience of even the greatest of sages, what to talk about you, has zero value, unless they have evidence to confirm what they say. Do you know that Lord Shiva is right now sitting beside me. Now don't say it is not true. It is not your experience.

I would say only personal experience has value. If you see things for yourself empirically, you can say that what the scriptures and sages say is true, and not incorrect. And anyone is free to check the validity of the scriptures and sages for themselves through Neti-neti, meditation and samadhi and discover the facts for themselves. There is no blind belief in all this.

Do you know that Lord Shiva is right now sitting beside me. Now don't say it is not true. It is not your experience.

If a person in the twentyfirst century says that he is Alexander the Great, obviously we will disbelieve him and take him for a madman. Because we know as per history books that Alexander lived in the fourth century B.C.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The vaisheshika philosophy as taught by Rishi Kanada, as shown in the Vaisheshika Sutra do accept meditation and samadhi, which you reject.

Vaisheshika Sutras were written centuries after Kanada, some time in 5th century.

And anyone is free to check the validity of the scriptures and sages for themselves through Neti-neti, meditation and samadhi and discover the facts for themselves. There is no blind belief in all this.

That is a very lame argument - for if someone will experience different things, you would conveniently way that his sadhana was not correct. He should have taken instructions from you. And as I have already mentioned, if you believe in 'Neti-neti', you do not have the right to say anything about Brahman.

If a person in the twentyfirst century says that he is Alexander the Great, obviously we will disbelieve him and take him for a madman. Because we know as per history books that Alexander lived in the fourth century B.C.

A 21st century person will have to produce proof. Those days are gone when things were accepted without proof. But you are asking me to believe many things without proof, including that you are an enlightened soul through your samadhi experience. Now, who is a madman?

 

[ajay0]

Vaisheshika Sutras were written centuries after Kanada, some time in 5th century.

The Vaisheshika Sutras were written by Sage Kanada himself.

That is a very lame argument - for if someone will experience different things, you would conveniently way that his sadhana was not correct. He should have taken instructions from you. And as I have already mentioned, if you believe in 'Neti-neti', you do not have the right to say anything about Brahman.

It is not me that is the external authority but the scriptures and the teacher.

And as I have already mentioned, if you believe in 'Neti-neti', you do not have the right to say anything about Brahman.

Nice state of delusion.

I suppose you would say the same thing to Shankaracharya and all the advaitan teachers at present teaching Neti-neti in India and all around the world.

.A 21st century person will have to produce proof. Those days are gone when things were accepted without proof.

Proof is produced by the person himself through his own experiential understanding through practicing the Neti-neti, meditation and attainment of samadhi which gives definite tangible results. It cannot be manufactured for him.

But you are asking me to believe many things without proof, including that you are an enlightened soul through your samadhi experience. Now, who is a madman?

I have never stated such stuff here, and your stating this is further proof to me of your delusionary state compounded by dishonesty.

I have attained samadhi, but it is nirvikalpa samadhi that is equated with enlightenment where the state of samadhi becomes permanent.