• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Bhedabheda vs. Advaita

ajay0

Well-Known Member
I have attained Nirvana, enlightenment, Moksha.

I would love to belive that, but your words does not correspond to the sayings of ancient and modern masters, and there is no adherence to the core teachings.

As I have stated earlier, these perhaps could be the pronouncements of imagination and delusion.

By focussing your attention on the real, and shedding off all imagination, you can indeed attain enlightenment like the sages of ancient and modern times..

I sincerely wish you the very best in this regard. :)


With your prejudices Moksha does not seem possible for you in this birth.

Kindly tell me what 'prejudices'' I have harboured and which is in variance with the scriptural teachings of advaita and that of modern masters ! :D


With your prejudices Moksha does not seem possible for you in this birth.

You have much to learn and any number of Jean Kleins cannot help you.

Stop reading trash, find the truth yourself - Be your own Guru.


These are all very loaded personalised statements with reactivity and negativity.

Brahman is of an impersonal nature, and impersonality is the nature of the enlightened sage, free of cravings or aversions.

As Krishna himself stated, " Equanimity of mind is yoga. "

These reactive statements itself, if properly comprehended, can be instructive material to you to understand the difference between the false egoistic self, with its reactivity and negativity, and the true Self , which is peaceful, impersonal and equanimous.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
.. and the true Self , which is peaceful, impersonal and equanimous.
:D You choose to define the true self when the sages have said that it is not definable, 'neti, neti'. Kindly stop defining te true self in the way you want. Consciousness, etc. All the best to you too.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
:D You choose to define the true self when the sages have said that it is not definable, 'neti, neti'.

Neti, Neti meaning 'not this, not this' is used by the sages to negate all those adjuncts or inessential parts till nothing but the truth or Self or pure consciousness remains.

The seeker attains union with the Absolute by denying the body, name, form, intellect, senses and all limiting adjuncts and discovers what remains, the true "I" or Self alone.

This is because all falsehoods and illusions dissolve by diligent investigation till the truth alone remains which is the Self or nonconceptual awareness.

As per wiki , 'One of the key elements of Jnana Yoga practice is often a "neti neti search. The purpose of the exercise is to negate rationalizations and other distractions from the non-conceptual meditative awareness of reality.'

Your understanding of 'Neti, neti ' is incorrect. Neti, neti is used to point out all that which is inessential and of an impermanent nature.


Kindly stop defining te true self in the way you want. Consciousness, etc.

I am not defining the true Self as per my fickle likes and dislikes . I am only defining it as per the teachings of the sages and masters reinforced by my own experiential understanding.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
What do we know bout what is essential and what is not for Brahman? And who knows the relationship, if any, between existence and non-existence?

I would say it is uninvolved and changeless (does not change its way of always changing). Beyond that I do not know. I do not know if it is permanent or impermanent, because there might be no difference between existence and non-existence.

सतो बन्धुमसति निरविन्दन हृदि प्रतीष्याकवयो मनीषा ll
Sato bandhumasati niravindan hridi prtishyakavayo manisha ll
The Rig Veda in Sanskrit: Rig Veda Book 10: Hymn 129
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
What do we know bout what is essential and what is not for Brahman? And who knows the relationship, if any, between existence and non-existence?

Brahman is not some external thing out there to ponder about and conceptualise endlessly.I can relate to this because I had the same conceptual confusion earlier till I gained the company of good sagely teachers, gaining experiential understanding which helped me understand the scriptural teachings as well precisely.

Brahman or pure consciousness, is that which is within oneself devoid of all transient mental content such as thoughts, emotions and conceptualisations which comes and goes.

This is understood through meditation, and made permanent through destruction of all karmas or unconscious habitual patterns /impressions in the mind.

I would say it is uninvolved and changeless (does not change its way of always changing). Beyond that I do not know. I do not know if it is permanent or impermanent, because there might be no difference between existence and non-existence.


Pure consciousness or Self is that which is unchanging at all times. Thoughts, emotions, concepts appear on the background of the Self and disappears due to their transient nature. They come and go. The Self alone remains.

As Gilbert Schultz stated, " The identified states of mind are all transient. That which they ALL appear and register upon is beyond all concepts, labels, words and things. That is what you are."
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Brahman is not some external thing out there to ponder about and conceptualise endlessly.

Pure consciousness or Self is that which is unchanging at all times. Thoughts, emotions, concepts appear on the background of the Self and disappears due to their transient nature. They come and go. The Self alone remains.

As Gilbert Schultz stated, " The identified states of mind are all transient. That which they ALL appear and register upon is beyond all concepts, labels, words and things. That is what you are."
I am not excluding myself (or yourself - 'tattwamasi') from that. Conceptualization can not be avoided even when masters talk about Brahman or when you meditate. These thing vanish only in 'Paramarthika'. The debates exist only in 'Vyavaharika'.

Yes, Brahman alone exist, not changing (that is not changing from its way of changing every Planck's moment as shown by science in case of virtual particles, all sub-atomic particles even of our body are constantly doing that without changing the overall picture). You are a science person, apply a little science, and see how absolutely comical/majestic (depending upon your mood) the 'samsara' is.

And, at the end of it, we do not know from where Brahman arises? If it is eternal, then why; if it is not, then there is no difference between existence and non-existence, both being just phases of Brahman. My suggestion is that you do not go by what Western writers have written, try to understand/experience it by yourself.
 

ajay0

Well-Known Member
I am not excluding myself (or yourself - 'tattwamasi') from that. Conceptualization can not be avoided even when masters talk about Brahman or when you meditate. These thing vanish only in 'Paramarthika'. The debates exist only in 'Vyavaharika'.

The debates and discussions exist in vyavaharika due to confusion and lack of clarity, as one sees reality on the basis of our relative conditioning.

In the state of paramarthika, you see truth or reality as it is, and not from the background of your conditioning.

It is this conditioning that brings up discrimination on the basis of caste, religion, linguistic chauvinism, nationality, race, gender, ideological affiliation , sexual orientation, greed and so on, not considering that these are all man-made barriers.

And these man-made barriers create conflict and violence and have been doing so for a very long time now.

Because of too much focus on the relative details, we are missing the bigger picture of our common humanity.

The sages have stated that the vyavaharika or relative activities too will be successful if we take into account the paramarthika or nondual reality in the long run. Or else they are doomed to failure.

The epics ramayana and mahabharatha are just illustrations of this principle.


As Rama himself stated in the Yoga Vasistha, " All countries in this world are territories of evil. "




Yes, Brahman alone exist, not changing (that is not changing from its way of changing every Planck's moment as shown by science in case of virtual particles, all sub-atomic particles even of our body are constantly doing that without changing the overall picture). You are a science person, apply a little science, and see how absolutely comical/majestic (depending upon your mood) the 'samsara' is..


Samsara is great as long as one's discretion or viveka is immune to their influence . If not, it becomes a nightmare as the sages teach us.


As a popular saying of Krishna goes, " Thinking of objects, attachment to them is formed in a man. From attachment longing, and from longing (when obstructed )anger grows.

From anger comes delusion, and from delusion loss of memory. From loss of memory comes the ruin of discrimination, and from that ruin of discrimination he perishes. "


Advaita's efficacy lies in ensuring that duality, which is the cause of indiscriminate desires and cravings for sense-pleasures, comes to an end, through nondual perception of reality through meditation, inquiry or nonconceptual awareness. This ensures that viveka or discrimination never comes to ruin, in the midst of sense-objects.


Crimes of passion and all criminal activities ,unprincipled conduct at all levels from the individual to the governments stems from this loss of viveka/discretion in the pursuit of sense-pleasures and wealth to acquire it.

Hence the necessity of Advaita in the modern era.

My suggestion is that you do not go by what Western writers have written, try to understand/experience it by yourself.


Why do you distrust westerners ? Is it because they are foreigners and 'uncivilized' people as shown in mtv and v channel, which the golden oldies warn repeatedly not to watch! If so, I hope I am kindly spared from such lectures in that regard. :D

Anyway, It is not just western writers like Jean Klein or Eckhart Tolle or Gilbert Schultz, but eastern masters like Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta who also have stated the same.

I have experienced the Self myself through meditation and nonconceptual awareness, and it is but beauty , love and bliss that I feel in abundance seeing reality as it is without any conceptual filters. And this is bliss without drugs or alcohol.

It is hard to understand this state just merely intellectually. As I stated earlier experiential understanding is paramount.

It is because modern man does not know that the source of bliss is within himself that he suffers intensely, inspite of indulgence in sense-pleasures, and takes out that pain within on others and oneself.

As Vicki Woodyard stated, “Awareness is who we are and forgetting that leads to suffering.”
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In the state of paramarthika, you see truth or reality as it is, and not from the background of your conditioning.

The sages have stated that the vyavaharika or relative activities too will be successful if we take into account the paramarthika or nondual reality in the long run. Or else they are doomed to failure.

As Rama himself stated in the Yoga Vasistha, " All countries in this world are territories of evil.

Why do you distrust westerners ? Is it because they are foreigners and 'uncivilized' people as shown in mtv and v channel, which the golden oldies warn repeatedly not to watch! If so, I hope I am kindly spared from such lectures in that regard. :D
Who sees? What to see?There is neither you nor anything else to see in 'Paramarthika'.

In 'Vyavaharika' we do what is required according to where others stand, otherwise there was no need for Mahabharata. Disregarding that is self-defeating in 'Vyavaharika' as Krishna advised Arjuna.

Arjuna Uvaca:
"Gurūn ahatvā hi mahānubhāvān, śreyo bhoktuḿ bhaikṣyam apīha loke;
hatvārtha-kāmāḿs tu gurūn ihaiva, bhuñjīya bhogān rudhira-pradigdhān.
Na caitad vidmaḥ kataran no garīyo, yad vā jayema yadi vā no jayeyuḥ;
yān eva hatvā na jijīviṣāmas, te 'vasthitāḥ pramukhe dhārtarāṣṭrāḥ."

Srī-bhagavān uvāca:
"Aśocyān anvaśocas tvaḿ, prajñā-vādāḿś ca bhāṣase;
gatāsūn agatāsūḿś ca, nānuśocanti paṇḍitāḥ.
Sukha-duḥkhe same kṛtvā, lābhālābhau jayājayau;
tato yuddhāya yujyasva, naivaḿ pāpam avāpsyasi."

Even Lord Rama had to battle Ravana.

No, there are scores of Westerners whom I love, many in this forum also (a few Muslims too). For me there is no Westerner or Easterner. It is about those who write about 'advaita' without understanding it. 'Vyavaharika' also is a truth. It cannot be disregarded (Pakistan and China on our borders). When some one writes about 'advaita', his feet should be firmly on ground and not up in the clouds. That is why Sankara ran when an elephant pursued him.

All this talk of 'Sara jahan hamara' and 'Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai' has its limitations.
 
Last edited:

ajay0

Well-Known Member
Who sees? What to see?There is neither you nor anything else to see in 'Paramarthika'.

This is not something to be merely intellectually understood, but existentially understood as well through meditation. Otherwise it is bound to result in delusion.

One sees clearly in paramarthika, without mental projections, interpretations, beliefs out of one’s background of conditioning, coloring the perception.

From the viewpoint of the false self, one sees a human being as a Jew, a Muslim, an African, an Hispanic, a lesbian, a transgender, theist, atheist, a white, an untouchable and so on.

As Nisargadatta Maharaj stated, “ As long as you have a (false) self to defend, you must be violent.”

From the viewpoint of the true Self, one sees human beings as human beings or manifestations of life, and treats them accordingly with love and compassion.

In 'Vyavaharika' we do what is required according to where others stand, otherwise there was no need for Mahabharata. Disregarding that is self-defeating in 'Vyavaharika' as Krishna advised Arjuna.

And as I mentioned, the vyavaharika ought to be conducted under the higher principles of Paramarthika. If not, it is bound to end in failure as shown in the case of Duryodhana who ended up losing the battle in spite of vastly outnumbering the Pandavas and Krishna’s forces.


No, there are scores of Westerners whom I love, many in this forum also (a few Muslims too). For me there is no Westerner or Easterner. It is about those who write about 'advaita' without understanding it. '

This is just a conditioned mental interpretation of the situation in itself , ‘I am right and you are wrong’, ‘My version of advaita is right and yours is wrong’, instead of dispassionately discussing the facts.

As per advaita, ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘my’ and ‘mine’ are the problem leading to conflict and are just mental labels or false identifications.


Vyavaharika' also is a truth. It cannot be disregarded (Pakistan and China on our borders). When some one writes about 'advaita', his feet should be firmly on ground and not up in the clouds. That is why Sankara ran when an elephant pursued him.

Vyavaharika are relative truths. It has to be regarded under the higher vision of paramarthika.

But if one is truly established in paramarthika and advaita, even the vyavaharika evolves to support one such.

Ramana Maharshi, in his youth spend many days in deep meditation in a cave in Arunachala without food or water, which would have killed anyone else.

There are ancient tales of monkeys fetching food for the Buddha in the forests.

When the merchants refused to give oil to Shirdi Sai Baba to light lamps for Diwali, he put water in the lamps instead of oil, and yet they burned still. The merchants who had gathered around the mosque wanted to use the opportunity to mock Sai in jest, fell on their knees before him after this incident.

When the kashi brahmins were invited along with the enlightened sage Guru Raidas to a king’s palace, they refused to dine with Guru Raidas stating that he was an untouchable.

While dining together, they found that Guru Raidas was sitting next to each and everyone of them. They begged Raidas’s forgiveness after this incident.

Around half a century back, lynchings of blacks were commonplace in the U.S. by violent mobs . The non-violent civil rights movement started by Martin Luther King Jr. was deemed as impractical by many, in the face of massive police brutality, mob violence and government apathy. But it effected a silent revolution in American society and half a century later, America had its first black president.

All this shows the invisible paramarthika in action while the visible vyavaharika or relative conditioned reality deems such actions as unrealistic and impractical due to its myopic vision .

And like the likes of Duryodhana and Hitler, the vyavaharika without the guiding principles of the Paramarthika, experiences short-term success, but ends up as a stark failure in the long run .

All this talk of 'Sara jahan hamara' and 'Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai' has its limitations.

These are subjects covered under political science , not advaita.

Even then, I would say it is conceptual filters that prevents the proper comprehension or diagnosis of the situation and taking appropriate action, resulting in disaster.

The hawk and the dove are conceptualizations, pairs of opposites, and nonconceptual awareness rises above both.

The pacifist, appeasing attitude of the allies allowed the hawkish Hitler to build up Nazi strength and make his initial gains in war over Europe, gaining strategic resources to effect further invasions.

Krishna responded to the demands of the situation appropriately as he was established in nonconceptual awareness without any conceptual filters to clog the vision. Hence he could perceive reality as it is and take proper action as demanded by the situation.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
okay if there is no thoughtless state, what happens after physical death? another experience??
Yeah, when a person dies and the oxygen supply to brain stops, then the mind goes into a special mode. One may hear, think,smell, even see if the eyes are open, though the person will not be able to respond. This phase does not last long. This gives rise to NDEs which will be according to the memories of the person.
The mind still works after you're dead, say scientists
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Awareness and the mind/ego cannot co-exist. Either one is there or the other.

For awareness to have meaning, someone has to be aware. If there is no one who is aware, then there is no awareness. As explained earlier, we only have two options (Brahman and the false self) and neither qualifies as the entity that becomes aware.

Hence the reason why moksha is not possible for the false self, because it is the dissolution of the false self that reveals the Self or Brahman within resulting in Moksha or realization.

But who finds moksha? That is the key question. It cannot be the false self as per Advaita, for it is an illusion. The only other option is Brahman and Brahman cannot find moksha. So, your position can only work with non-advaitic doctrines.

As Jean Klein stated, " Who is this 'I' ? Nothing other than the mind. And who knows the mind? The true 'I'. "

Jean Klein's position is incomplete. He has to go all the way. This "knower of the mind" that he talks about is also within the mind. The "true I" that he talks about is also within the mind. Else, he would not be able to talk about it. The hypothetical source of the mind is also within the mind.

The knower is the watcher or witness which is Brahman itself, without any obscuring by the egoistic little self.

The knower who was previously ignorant , as you mentioned, is the egoistic self or false self. The watcher or witness or true Self is behind this. The dissolution of the false self or ‘knower’ as you put it, leads to the unobscuring of the Self within which is the real knower , and which is of the nature of Sat-Chit-Ananda or Existence-Consciousness –Bliss.

Who finds this bliss? This is where the logic fails. By your own admission, the false self dissolves. With that, there is no one left to find bliss.

Without practice of meditation or thoughtless awareness, it is hard to comprehend Advaita,. Anyone who does so without meditation, is bound to lose himself in endless concepts which are but transient mental content, even leading to excess of imagination and delusion.

As explained earlier, thoughtless awareness is not possible. Unless, you were there, there is no way you can talk about it. And since you are recollecting it and talking about it, you were there, all the time. Ergo, it was not a thoughtless state. The moment you tell yourself that you are in a "thoughtless state", you are thinking.

It is meditation that enabled me to make sense of advaitan teachings, prior to which I had similarly confused it with intellectual concepts and conceptualisations of some grand object out there somewhere.

Simple logic shows that Advaitic moksha is tenuous. With only the false self and Brahman and nothing else, there is no entity that finds moksha. How can any amount of meditation change this? What you are describing is more viable as bheda-abheda or as some kind of pure dualistic doctrine. I have been saying this - most people who believe they are advaitins are actually bhedabhedins (without their knowledge), for in their belief system, there is a true self that finds moksha. For this self to persist after moksha, to find bliss, to tell itself it has found moksha, etc., we need some type of dualism - partial or full. And Advaita does not cut it.

okay if there is no thoughtless state, what happens after physical death? another experience??

How can there be death? You cannot be a witness to your own death - just like you cannot witness yourself falling asleep or even be a witness to your own sleep. You only infer sleep when you wake up. In reality, you are always present; always conscious. This is why time itself is a creation of thought. It is thought that projects present, past and future.

To put it differently, you cannot ever witness your non-existence. So, you always exist. But the usage of always is not to be taken to mean infinite time (there is no such thing as eternity). It should be understood that time itself is part of the thought make-up. This is what Gaudapada means by no birth, no death.

Isn't the concept of experience tied to your physical identity? If your physical body goes (along with memory), then you will not exist. But as explained earlier, you cannot not exist. I wish I can explain this better.
 
Last edited:

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
This is what Gaudapada means by no birth, no death.
In 'Paramarthika' (the world of energy), you don't exist. You (and all other things) exist only in a lower level of reality "Vyavaharika'. There is no birth, death, witnessing, perception, memory, consciousness, creation, judgment, salvation, deliverance, enlightenment, nirvana, moksha, jnana, in 'Parmarthika', only the ocean of pulsating energy, Brahman. Come elementary particles and we are in 'Vyavaharika' from then on.

300px-Standard_Model_of_Elementary_Particles.svg.png


"The anthropic principle states that this is a necessity, because if life were impossible, no living entity would be there to observe it, and thus would not be known. That is, it must be possible to observe some universe, and hence, the laws and constants of any such universe must accommodate that possibility."
Anthropic principle - Wikipedia

Things exist because of our collective observation. If I am not there, others will observe things. No observation, no things. Maya.

@ajay0 , stop reading Jean Kliens. They don't understand 'advaita'. But then, if you are satisfied with their scheme, carry on. You have the right to have your views. Only do not think that radicals like us will accept it.
 
Last edited:

ajay0

Well-Known Member
For awareness to have meaning, someone has to be aware. If there is no one who is aware, then there is no awareness. As explained earlier, we only have two options (Brahman and the false self) and neither qualifies as the entity that becomes aware.

Awareness itself becomes conscious of itself. This happens when it is no longer obscured by habitual mental-emotional patterns .


But who finds moksha? That is the key question. It cannot be the false self as per Advaita, for it is an illusion. The only other option is Brahman and Brahman cannot find moksha. So, your position can only work with non-advaitic doctrines.

In Moksha the total dissolution of the false self takes place through extinction of karma, and hence there is no further habitual mental-emotional patterns produced by the samskaras and belief structures within to obscure the Self or Brahman which is present at all times.


Jean Klein's position is incomplete. He has to go all the way. This "knower of the mind" that he talks about is also within the mind. The "true I" that he talks about is also within the mind. Else, he would not be able to talk about it. The hypothetical source of the mind is also within the mind.

The true 'I' and the mind are two separate entities. As Ramana Maharshi stated, mind is but a aggregate of thoughts which has a beginning and end.

Thoughts cease but the true 'I' or Self is present at all times. It is when the incessant thought process ceases at times that there is the experience of happiness or bliss due to the unobscurement of the Self within.

Example is the wonder produced by a beautiful sunset or glimpse of nature. The thought process ceases for a temporary span of time, and there is bliss. The thought process returns and the bliss fades away due to the habitual obscurement of the Self by thought and corresponding emotions.


Who finds this bliss? This is where the logic fails. By your own admission, the false self dissolves. With that, there is no one left to find bliss.

Brahman finds bliss, and Brahman or the Self is that which the false self obscures with its habitual mental-emotional patterns .

With the dissolution of the false self , the true 'I' is revealed with accompanying bliss.


As explained earlier, thoughtless awareness is not possible. Unless, you were there, there is no way you can talk about it. And since you are recollecting it and talking about it, you were there, all the time.


This all stems from the misconception that thought constitutes consciousness. I assure you that is not the case. I did not experience any breakdown of consciousness during practice of thoughtless awareness or meditation, as had been stated earlier. Consciousness became much more clearer without the habitual obscurement of it by the incessant thought and emoting.

Thoughtless awareness is possible through meditation, along with its accompanying bliss, and the true 'I' or Self is talking about it now.

Ergo, it was not a thoughtless state. The moment you tell yourself that you are in a "thoughtless state", you are thinking.

Experiencing the thoughtless state , I don't have to think to convince myself that I was in a 'thoughtless state'. The experience itself is enough.

When the sun rises in the morning, I don't have to think that the sun has risen. I directly perceive it and know the fact without having to think so.

Simple logic shows that Advaitic moksha is tenuous. With only the false self and Brahman and nothing else, there is no entity that finds moksha.

The false self that obscures Brahman is dissolved , and Brahman perceives reality as it is. Moksha or liberation is used in the relative realm for proper understanding of it.

Just as a thorn is used to remove an another thorn embedded in the skin, similarly concepts are used to remove all concepts in the relative realm to attain non-conceptual awareness.

Brahman is always there, and the false self only obscures it due to false identification with it. Through dissolution of the false self , Brahman finds itself to be the sole entity.

How can any amount of meditation change this?

Meditation enables a holistic understanding of this process wherein the false self obscures Brahman. The cessation of the thinking mind, feelings of bliss and relaxation also encourages one to continue .
 
Last edited:

ajay0

Well-Known Member
@ajay0 , stop reading Jean Kliens. They don't understand 'advaita'. But then, if you are satisfied with their scheme, carry on. You have the right to have your views. Only do not think that radicals like us will accept it.

As I stated earlier, 'I am right, you are wrong', 'My view of Advaita is right, yours is wrong' are conditioned mental interpretations of the situation, instead of dispassionately discussing the facts related to it.

This itself is what Advaita warns us about, the false self and its illusory personalised identifications that lead to conflict and strife.

Jean Klein, Sailor Bob Adamson, Gilbert Schultz, Eckhart Tolle, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Ramana Maharashi , H.W.Poonja similarly have pointed out this fact as did the ancient masters.

But as Nisargadatta pointed out, " We miss the real due to lack of attention and create the unreal by excess of imagination. "
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
In 'Paramarthika' (the world of energy), you don't exist.

Then, Paramarthika is not real. It is imaginary and will remain that way.

You (and all other things) exist only in a lower level of reality "Vyavaharika'. There is no birth, death, witnessing, perception, memory, consciousness, creation, judgment, salvation, deliverance, enlightenment, nirvana, moksha, jnana, in 'Parmarthika', only the ocean of pulsating energy, Brahman.

Like everything else you listed, the pulsating energy/Brahman too, is a concept of the mind. Not because I say so, but it should be because you see it for yourself.

Things exist because of our collective observation. If I am not there, others will observe things. No observation, no things. Maya.

If I am not there, there are no no others. No Maya and no Brahman. But as I explained previously, it is not possible for me to be not there.

Awareness itself becomes conscious of itself. This happens when it is no longer obscured by habitual mental-emotional patterns .

How can it "become" aware, implying that awareness was unaware of itself until then? Per Advaita, there is only one Brahman/awareness and obviously it cannot "become" anything. Certainly not for each Jiva. By your logic, the one Brahman

1. Became aware when Yajnavalkya attained moksha
2. Became aware once again, when Shankara attained moksha
3. Became aware once again, when Ramana attained moksha
4. Became aware one more time, when Ajay attained moksha

and so on, which is logically not possible.

The true 'I' and the mind are two separate entities. As Ramana Maharshi stated, mind is but a aggregate of thoughts which has a beginning and end.

Either this "true I" is Brahman or it is not. if it the former, it cannot "become" anything. If it is the latter, then it is not Advaita.

Example is the wonder produced by a beautiful sunset or glimpse of nature. The thought process ceases for a temporary span of time, and there is bliss. The thought process returns and the bliss fades away due to the habitual obscurement of the Self by thought and corresponding emotions.

The recognition of the sun as the sun, the concept of the sun-set and the concept of beauty are not possible without thought. The concept of thoughtlessness is not possible without thought.

Brahman finds bliss

Brahman cannot find anything. It is changeless, per Advaita (Upadesha Sahasri 1.36, etc.,). Besides, if we allow such a thing, it should have found the alleged bliss when the very first Jiva attained moksha. It cannot be finding new bliss for each Jiva, for then we would have to ask what happened to all the bliss that was found when earlier Jivas attained moksha?

Brahman is always there, and the false self only obscures it due to false identification with it. Through dissolution of the false self , Brahman finds itself to be the sole entity.

The false self obscures Brahman to whom? Brahman cannot have new discoveries. If Brahman is the sole entity, then who attained moksha? You are actually positing three entities and not two - the false self, the true self and Brahman. For some purposes, you say the latter two are the same and at other times, you see them as different (as in, multiple true selves). That is a form of bhedabheda.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Then, Paramarthika is not real. It is imaginary and will remain that way.

Like everything else you listed, the pulsating energy/Brahman too, is a concept of the mind. Not because I say so, but it should be because you see it for yourself.

If I am not there, there are no no others. No Maya and no Brahman. But as I explained previously, it is not possible for me to be not there.
Can you see the real? If the real was so easy to see, there would not have been any debates. What you see is limited to the powers of your perception, no ultra violet, no infra-red.

Yes, I do not know the so-called Brahman, the only entity that is supposed to constitute all things in the universe, some entity with which the universe started. Science says a ball of energy at very high temperature, smaller than a foot ball. The problem still remains about its origin before we come to its properties. Eternal or from 'absolute nothing' - 'ex-nihilo', the 'singularity'. :)

When this form (Aupmanyav) is not there, the other forms will be around. I was with my grandfather and father. They are no more, but I am still there. When I am not here, hopefully my son and grandsons will be there. The web of 'maya' continues. It will even if we do not understand it as also when we understand it. The forms change, but Brahman remains - at least that has been the human experience.

"Nāsato vidyate bhāvo, nābhāvo vidyate sataḥ;
ubhayor api dṛṣṭo'ntas, tu anayoh tattva-darśibhiḥ.
Vāsāḿsi jīrṇāni yathā vihāya, navāni gṛhṇāti naro'parāṇi;
tathā śarīrāṇi vihāya jīrṇāny, anyāni saḿyāti navāni dehī."
(Please note that the original has no mention of 'soul'. For Krishna it is simply 'it'. It is not neccesary that a human form will change into another human form, it may go to many living and non-living things. 'Navāni dehī' - new forms)
 
Last edited:

ajay0

Well-Known Member
How can it "become" aware, implying that awareness was unaware of itself until then? Per Advaita, there is only one Brahman/awareness and obviously it cannot "become" anything. Certainly not for each Jiva. By your logic, the one Brahman


The Jivatma is not conscious of itself as Awareness or pure consciousness due to its identification with the body-mind complex , and the habitual mental-emotional patterns of the mind.


1. Became aware when Yajnavalkya attained moksha
2. Became aware once again, when Shankara attained moksha
3. Became aware once again, when Ramana attained moksha
4. Became aware one more time, when Ajay attained moksha

and so on, which is logically not possible.

When the habitual mental-emotional patterns of the mind came to an end through destruction of innate vasanas or past impressions and tendencies, through meditation, the Self or Awareness is unobscured by the incessant thinking and emoting tendencies of the mind.

In this way, the false self in the above jivatmas came to an end, with the consequent unveiling of the true Self, termed as Moksha in the relative realm.


Either this "true I" is Brahman or it is not. if it the former, it cannot "become" anything. If it is the latter, then it is not Advaita.

Brahman or Awareness is present at all times. The incessant thinking and emoting tendencies of the mind puts a veil upon it and obscures it. And awareness and the mind, which is but an aggregate of thoughts, are two different things altogether. When the habitual thought and emoting process ceases, the Self or Awareness is revealed with consequent bliss and peace.


The recognition of the sun as the sun, the concept of the sun-set and the concept of beauty are not possible without thought. The concept of thoughtlessness is not possible without thought.

As I stated earlier, one knows that the sun rises in the east through the naked cognizing awareness, without having to think about it or conceptualise it. If one thinks about all the external stimuli one observes, one would move in slow motion or not at all, trying to put it all into thought and words.

And this is the case with anything as well. Thought as an instrument for processing information is used when needed and switched off.

Inability to switch off the chronic thinking process is what results in excessive worry and tension that can create psychosomatic diseases as blood pressure issues and heart attacks along with psychological issues.

As Eckhart Tolle puts it, " The thinking mind is a useful and powerful tool, but it is also very limiting when it takes over your life completely, when you don't realize that it is only a small aspect of the consciousness that you are. "

The concept of thoughtlessness is not possible without thought.

Thoughtlessness as a concept is created by thought. Thought however has no role to play in the actual thoughtless awareness or meditation.

Brahman cannot find anything. It is changeless, per Advaita (Upadesha Sahasri 1.36, etc.,). Besides, if we allow such a thing, it should have found the alleged bliss when the very first Jiva attained moksha. It cannot be finding new bliss for each Jiva, for then we would have to ask what happened to all the bliss that was found when earlier Jivas attained moksha?

The Jivatma or individual entity finds bliss by going beyond the false identification with the mind-body complex and realizing his true identity as Brahman or the Self. Bliss is the nature of the Self or Brahman or sat-chit-ananda.

I put Brahman instead of the Jivatma over there. Apologize for the error in wording.


The false self obscures Brahman to whom? Brahman cannot have new discoveries. If Brahman is the sole entity, then who attained moksha? You are actually positing three entities and not two - the false self, the true self and Brahman. For some purposes, you say the latter two are the same and at other times, you see them as different (as in, multiple true selves). That is a form of bhedabheda.

The false self obscures Brahman to the jivatma, as the false self arises out of identification with the mind and body.

As stated earlier, dissolution of the false self leading to the unveiling of Brahman or true Self to the jivatma is termed as moksha in the relative realm.

The false self is the ego born due to identification with the mind . With the cessation of the thinking and emoting process, and mind, the Self is unveiled.
 
Last edited:

DanielR

Active Member
How can there be death? You cannot be a witness to your own death - just like you cannot witness yourself falling asleep or even be a witness to your own sleep. You only infer sleep when you wake up. In reality, you are always present; always conscious. This is why time itself is a creation of thought. It is thought that projects present, past and future.

To put it differently, you cannot ever witness your non-existence. So, you always exist. But the usage of always is not to be taken to mean infinite time (there is no such thing as eternity). It should be understood that time itself is part of the thought make-up. This is what Gaudapada means by no birth, no death.

Isn't the concept of experience tied to your physical identity? If your physical body goes (along with memory), then you will not exist. But as explained earlier, you cannot not exist. I wish I can explain this better.

I know what you are trying to say (I think) haha, but what I witness is that I am aging and that I'm changing physically, it's hard for me to understand what happens then, I still believe my body is going to die someday, in your opinion is this thinking wrong??

Thank you for taking time in answering the questions,

I've been reading Parmenides on Nature for the past couple of days, and it's weird how he says the exact same things as Gaudapada, I know you brought up Parmenides some time ago

Regards
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Can you see the real? If the real was so easy to see, there would not have been any debates. What you see is limited to the powers of your perception, no ultra violet, no infra-red.

I am talking about the role of thought. Other people only exist when you think about them. You exist only when you think about yourself. So, the universe (including yourself and everyone else) is constantly coming into existence and disappearing, depending on the direction of thought. The connection established between these thoughts (through memory) creates the impression of continuity. You currently see yourself as a person in time and space with a brain that thinks. If you can see that yourself, your brain, time and space are constructs of thought, you will see what I am saying.

In this way, the false self in the above jivatmas came to an end, with the consequent unveiling of the true Self, termed as Moksha in the relative realm.

I will reiterate your position.

1. There are multiple Jivatmas. Each of them consists of a false self and a true self.
2. Their true selves are obscured by ignorance. The false selves assume they are real.
3. Jivatma Yajnavalkya, on moksha (through meditation, etc.,) realized the truth upon which, the false sense disappeared and his true self became aware of its true nature. It attained moksha and attained bliss.
4. At a later point in time, Jivatma Shankara attained moksha and underwent the same revelation as x and found bliss.
5. At an even later point, Jivatma Vivekananda attained moksha and found the same bliss as the others did above.

In short, there are multiple true selves that attain moksha and also retain their identities after moksha (if they are not distinct, we will be contradicting the idea of x, y and z finding their own mokshas at different times). With this idea of multiple and permanent true selves, you have strayed far from Shankara's Advaita. However, it does not matter as Shankara's Advaita is not logically consistent, anyway.
 
Top