bible says god is immortal

[Muffled]

The Bible says God is Immortal and...

...His attribute of immortality could not be shared with men. Evidence! When Adam & Eve were banished from the Garden of Eden, the reason was to prevent them from eating of the tree of life
and live forever. (Genesis 3:22,23) Hence, God alone is immortal.

I believe this is the fallacy of reasoning from the particular to the whole. I believe Adam and Eve were a special case. BTW the scripture does not say why Adam and Eve shouldn't have eternal life so one does not even have a a reason that can be generalized.

I believe we have this statement by Jesus:
John 2:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[crowfeather]

Anything with a corporeal body is mortal. Anything with an identity is mortal. Anything not plugged in to The Source is mortal.
God had better be immortal, or what's Godlike about him?
God has no form, no identity, IS The Source.
Jesus doesn't know himself as Jesus, and has become One with The Source.
As has the Buddha, as has Lao Tzu, as will I.

Anything else is gobbledygook.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe this is the fallacy of reasoning from the particular to the whole. I believe Adam and Eve were a special case. BTW the scripture does not say why Adam and Eve shouldn't have eternal life so one does not even have a a reason that can be generalized. I believe we have this statement by Jesus: John 2:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Man cannot have eternal life, I tell you. The method to verify that statement is to inquire if he was born. If he was born, he did not exist before birth. Therefore, there was a time when he did not exist. So, he can no longer be claimed to have eternal life. Only the One Who had no beginning and will have no end, can be said to have eternal life.

Now, with regards to the serpent in the wilderness, take a look at this:

The Serpent in the Wilderness

Numbers 21:9 (JPS) "Then Moses made a copper serpent and mounted it on a standard; and when any one was bitten by a serpent, he would look at the copper serpent and recover." Christians love to read this text and to find in it a reference to Jesus. Christian preconceived notions are the cause of this illusion because, If we focus on that text for the truth, it is right there almost in every line.

1 - And when any one was bitten by a serpent... It means that when any one was moved by the desire to rebel, as rebellion had become the order of the day among the Israelites in the wilderness,

2 - He would look... which means, he would remember.

3 - At the copper serpent which was a reference to the longest and cruelest captivity ever in Egypt...

4 - And recover. Here, "recover" means he would repent from his desire to rebel.

And that was the point for Moses to build the copper serpent in the wilderness.

 

[moorea944]

I believe this is the fallacy of reasoning from the particular to the whole. I believe Adam and Eve were a special case. BTW the scripture does not say why Adam and Eve shouldn't have eternal life so one does not even have a a reason that can be generalized.

I believe we have this statement by Jesus:
John 2:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;
15 that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.

"that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life."

And what is doesnt say is ..... "the only thing you have to do is" believe. If we base our salvation ONLY on belief, then we throw out the rest of the bible. And that's the problem with most religions of today, we want salvation to be easy and instant.

So... that word "saved", what does that mean for you? That we are saved into something, or out of something or set apart for something to come......... I think a lot of people really dont fully understand that what that word really means.

 

[Ben Avraham]

And what is doesnt say is ..... "the only thing you have to do is" believe. If we base our salvation ONLY on belief, then we throw out the rest of the bible. And that's the problem with most religions of today, we want salvation to be easy and instant. So... that word "saved", what does that mean for you? That we are saved into something, or out of something or set apart for something to come......... I think a lot of people really dont fully understand that what that word really means.

The only way to prove that you believe is through obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself once declared that the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. And salvation is easy and instant. All we need to set things right with the Lord so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparations, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) We have only to want.

 

[moorea944]

The only way to prove that you believe is through obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself once declared that the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31. And salvation is easy and instant. All we need to set things right with the Lord so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparations, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) We have only to want.

The only way to prove that you believe is through obedience of God's Law. Jesus himself once declared that the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law if you read Luke 16:29-31.

That was part of the parable from verse 19. Plus, what verse does Jesus actually tell someone "the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to Moses"........

And salvation is easy and instant.

Absolutely not! Salvation is NOT easy and is not instant. Where do you read that one! Salvation is a process thru life. Doesnt Jesus tell us that when he comes back, then he'll give us our rewards (salvation) by the things that we've done in life? Even Paul didnt know if he would qualify for salvation. We have a lot of temptations through life. "Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life". We are also prone to sin. It's not easy not to sin every day. But we are a new person (symbolically) through baptism and we now walk to a new life in Christ, putting the old man to death.

So where does it say that salvation is easy and instant? No OT verses please. We have a new covenant with Christ now don't forget. We dont need the "law of Moses", read Hebrews.

All we need to set things right with the Lord so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparations, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) We have only to want.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

That was before Christ. It's almost like you have a problem with the NT.

 

[Ben Avraham]

That was part of the parable from verse 19. Plus, what verse does Jesus actually tell someone "the only way to achieve salvation is by listening to Moses"...

In Luke 16:29-31. You must read the whole parable to understand what he was talking about.

Absolutely not! Salvation is NOT easy and is not instant. Where do you read that one! Salvation is a process thru life. Doesnt Jesus tell us that when he comes back, then he'll give us our rewards (salvation) by the things that we've done in life? Even Paul didnt know if he would qualify for salvation. We have a lot of temptations through life. "Lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and the pride of life". We are also prone to sin. It's not easy not to sin every day. But we are a new person (symbolically) through baptism and we now walk to a new life in Christ, putting the old man to death.

Every time we need to set things right with the Lord, so that ours sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparations, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) That's what I mean by instant salvation. However, salvation is not final by doing that because, there has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned. (Ecclesiastes 7:20) We must repeat Isaiah's process of salvation every time we fall in our sins.

So where does it say that salvation is easy and instant? No OT verses please. We have a new covenant with Christ now don't forget. We dont need the "law of Moses", read Hebrews. That was before Christ. It's almost like you have a problem with the NT.

Salvation is not permanent as long as we misuse our Freewill to do evil. Every time we are in sin, we must execute the process to achieve salvation. That's personal salvation. The only salvation which is free and permanent is the universal salvation. For personal salvation, we must obey the Law.

 

[moorea944]

In Luke 16:29-31. You must read the whole parable to understand what he was talking about.



Every time we need to set things right with the Lord, so that ours sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, all we need is to repent, make reparations, and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19) That's what I mean by instant salvation. However, salvation is not final by doing that because, there has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned. (Ecclesiastes 7:20) We must repeat Isaiah's process of salvation every time we fall in our sins.



Salvation is not permanent as long as we misuse our Freewill to do evil. Every time we are in sin, we must execute the process to achieve salvation. That's personal salvation. The only salvation which is free and permanent is the universal salvation. For personal salvation, we must obey the Law.

there has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned

Sure there has. Jesus. Scripture even tells us that.

Salvation is not permanent as long as we misuse our Freewill to do evil. Every time we are in sin, we must execute the process to achieve salvation. That's personal salvation. The only salvation which is free and permanent is the universal salvation. For personal salvation, we must obey the Law.

So are you saying that there is two salvations? When you talk about salvation, what is that for you? Heaven going? Eternal life? Kingdom? Trying to understand where your coming from.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sure there has. Jesus. Scripture even tells us that. So are you saying that there is two salvations? When you talk about salvation, what is that for you? Heaven going? Eternal life? Kingdom? Trying to understand where your coming from.

I come from the Tanach aka the gospel of Jesus. Use the Tanach to tell me where the Scripture says that Jesus was someone who never sinned? Perhaps you don't even know what the Tanach is. The Tanach is the Jewish Scriptures. There are two kinds of salvation, the universal salvation and the personal salvation. The universal salvation is free. For the personal salvation, you have to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's what Jesus said in Luke 16:29-31

 

[moorea944]

I come from the Tanach aka the gospel of Jesus. Use the Tanach to tell me where the Scripture says that Jesus was someone who never sinned? Perhaps you don't even know what the Tanach is. The Tanach is the Jewish Scriptures. There are two kinds of salvation, the universal salvation and the personal salvation. The universal salvation is free. For the personal salvation, you have to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. That's what Jesus said in Luke 16:29-31

I actually what the Tanach is.
There is only one kind of salvation, not two. Just like our God, one not three.
You really might want to re-read Luke 16 again. It actually starts at verse 19 and it's a parable.

So...... what is salvation for you then? Heaven going? Eternal life? Kingdom on earth? Just curious.

 

[Ingledsva]

Sure there has. Jesus. Scripture even tells us that...

According to Bible verses - he did sin. He snapped at and was rude to people, including his own mother, rabble-roused and had to run for his life on several occasions, told some of his disciples to get swords, tells us in a parable about himself, that people whom chose not to be under him should be brought forth and killed, got ANGRY and chassed people with a whip on two occasions, etc.

*

 

[moorea944]

According to Bible verses - he did sin. He snapped at and was rude to people, including his own mother, rabble-roused and had to run for his life on several occasions, told some of his disciples to get swords, tells us in a parable about himself, that people whom chose not to be under him should be brought forth and killed, got ANGRY and chassed people with a whip on two occasions, etc.

*

According to Bible verses - he did sin.

But we know he didnt sin. Scripture also tells us that too. There are no verses that tell us that Jesus sinned. What we see as something not good or that we might think that someone sinned, is and could be much different to our Creator. To say that His son sinned, when He tells us that he didnt, is going against our God.

 

[Ingledsva]

But we know he didnt sin. Scripture also tells us that too. There are no verses that tell us that Jesus sinned. What we see as something not good or that we might think that someone sinned, is and could be much different to our Creator. To say that His son sinned, when He tells us that he didnt, is going against our God.

They are sins for anyone else, - but not Jesus?

I don't think so.

*

 

[Skwim]

But we know he didnt sin. Scripture also tells us that too. There are no verses that tell us that Jesus sinned. What we see as something not good or that we might think that someone sinned, is and could be much different to our Creator. To say that His son sinned, when He tells us that he didnt, is going against our God.

John 2:14-16
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Matthew 21:12-13
12 Jesus went into the Temple area. He threw out all those who were selling and buying things there. He turned over the tables that belonged to those who were exchanging different kinds of money. And he turned over the benches of those who were selling doves. 13 Jesus said to them, “The Scriptures say, ‘My Temple will be called a house of prayer.’But you are changing it into a ‘hiding place for thieves.’”

.

 

[moorea944]

John 2:14-16
13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting:
15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

Matthew 21:12-13
12 Jesus went into the Temple area. He threw out all those who were selling and buying things there. He turned over the tables that belonged to those who were exchanging different kinds of money. And he turned over the benches of those who were selling doves. 13 Jesus said to them, “The Scriptures say, ‘My Temple will be called a house of prayer.’But you are changing it into a ‘hiding place for thieves.’”

.

So what's your point? Are you saying because of those verses Jesus was sinning? Of course he wasn't. That wasn't sinning. You serious? You really think Jesus sinned during his life? If he did, then he wouldn't be the Messiah, it would have been someone else.

 

[Skwim]

So what's your point? Are you saying because of those verses Jesus was sinning? Of course he wasn't. That wasn't sinning. You serious? You really think Jesus sinned during his life? If he did, then he wouldn't be the Messiah, it would have been someone else.

My point is that what he did amounts to hatred, assault, and battery; all sins.

FYI
"In both criminal and civil law, battery is the intentional touching of, or application of force to, the body of another person in a harmful or offensive manner (and without consent)."​

Assault, which is merely the act of threatening a battery, or of placing another in fear or apprehension of an impending and immediate battery.
source

​

The sins of assault, battery, and hatred.

Battery (use of the scourage he made)

Hatred (of those abusing the temple. Although the word itself isn't used, his actions demonstrate it.)
source listing them as sins

Assault (He put the fear of harm in those buying and selling in the temple)
source listing it as a sin
​

Of course many will likely give Jesus a bye on these, seeing that he's god and all, (just as they would turn a blind eye to any drunkenness, theft, or homosexuality he might have been said to participate in): whatever Jesus does is, by definition, not sinful. However, I consider this an apologetic cop-out. Murder is murder no matter who commits it, be it you, me, or Jesus Christ. And the same goes for assault, battery, and hatred. If they're sins when you or I do them then they're sins when Jesus does them.

.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But we know he didnt sin. Scripture also tells us that too. There are no verses that tell us that Jesus sinned.

That's because they can't accept the stories they just told about him. He either did those bad things or he didn't.

If he did, then he wouldn't be the Messiah, it would have been someone else.

Imagine that, maybe the people writing about Jesus made him out to be something more than what he was! There is no rule that a Messiah, who is just someone appointed by God to do something, has to be divine or sinless or whatever. It's simply not a thing.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I actually what the Tanach is. There is only one kind of salvation, not two. Just like our God, one not three. You really might want to re-read Luke 16 again. It actually starts at verse 19 and it's a parable. So...... what is salvation for you then? Heaven going? Eternal life? Kingdom on earth? Just curious.

Two Kinds of Salvation.

1. Personal salvation and;

2. Universal salvation.

Only universal salvation is free; personal salvation is as expensive as the kind of transgression committed against the Law.

Universal salvation is the one promised to Noah through the Noahide Covenant which the Lord established with all Mankind. Soon after the Flood, the Lord promised Noah never to allow another catastrophe the size of the Flood as all living beings, except for Noah's family, had suffered universal destruction. What about if Mankind turned again as evil as at the time of Noah? The Lord had to raise a new people from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the pledge or assurance to His promise of universal salvation for Mankind. Israel had risen. Now, as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the earth would remain seed-time and harvest and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night would not cease. In other words, as long as the natural laws functioned properly, Mankind was saved; freely saved. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Prophet Jeremiah must have read the above text and connected the Lord's pledge with the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws functioned properly, thus, Israel would guarantee the Lord's promise of universal salvation of Mankind. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Reading the Christian NT the other day, I came about John 4:22 and I was reminded that Jesus must have read both texts above; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and concluded that indeed salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews.

Now, for personal salvation, the bill would have to be paid according to the transgression of the Law; the law of cause and effect; some times as expensive as the loss of life itself. This kind of salvation is so serious that, as Jesus himself said, if we come to the Temple to plead for salvation and we are reminded that some one has an issue with us, we must leave all behind and go set things right with our neighbor and only then return to the altar to plead for salvation. (Mat. 5:23,24)

 

[Ben Avraham]

Sure there has. Jesus. Scripture even tells us that. So are you saying that there is two salvations? When you talk about salvation, what is that for you? Heaven going? Eternal life? Kingdom? Trying to understand where your coming from.

For me, personal salvation, for instance, is to escape the consequences as a result of transgression of the Law. As long as you don't break the Law, you can consider yourself saved. Now, for universal salvation, you don't have to do any thing but to try to understand and to acknowledge the words of Jesus in John 4:22 that it comes from the Jews. I have posted a thread about the two kinds of salvation. You can read it and, and if you still have any question, I am all ears.

 

[moorea944]

Two Kinds of Salvation.

1. Personal salvation and;

2. Universal salvation.

Only universal salvation is free; personal salvation is as expensive as the kind of transgression committed against the Law.

Universal salvation is the one promised to Noah through the Noahide Covenant which the Lord established with all Mankind. Soon after the Flood, the Lord promised Noah never to allow another catastrophe the size of the Flood as all living beings, except for Noah's family, had suffered universal destruction. What about if Mankind turned again as evil as at the time of Noah? The Lord had to raise a new people from the loins of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the pledge or assurance to His promise of universal salvation for Mankind. Israel had risen. Now, as long as Israel remained as a People before the Lord forever, the earth would remain seed-time and harvest and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night would not cease. In other words, as long as the natural laws functioned properly, Mankind was saved; freely saved. (Gen. 8:21,22)

Prophet Jeremiah must have read the above text and connected the Lord's pledge with the permanence of Israel as a People before the Lord forever as long as the natural laws functioned properly, thus, Israel would guarantee the Lord's promise of universal salvation of Mankind. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)

Reading the Christian NT the other day, I came about John 4:22 and I was reminded that Jesus must have read both texts above; the one of Genesis and that of Jeremiah and concluded that indeed salvation comes from the Jews. From the Jews, he said, and not from one among the Jews.

Now, for personal salvation, the bill would have to be paid according to the transgression of the Law; the law of cause and effect; some times as expensive as the loss of life itself. This kind of salvation is so serious that, as Jesus himself said, if we come to the Temple to plead for salvation and we are reminded that some one has an issue with us, we must leave all behind and go set things right with our neighbor and only then return to the altar to plead for salvation. (Mat. 5:23,24)

There is only one kind of salvation. Your making it into two kinds.

indeed salvation comes from the Jews

No, salvation comes from God