Bible study, open to all

[Autodidact]

Here is the passage I would like to discuss:

Numbers 31

Vengeance on the Midianites

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people." 3 So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them. 4 Send into battle a thousand men from each of the tribes of Israel." 5 So twelve thousand men armed for battle, a thousand from each tribe, were supplied from the clans of Israel. 6 Moses sent them into battle, a thousand from each tribe, along with Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, who took with him articles from the sanctuary and the trumpets for signaling.
7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho. [a]
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
19 "All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood."
21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, "This is the requirement of the law that the LORD gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp."
Dividing the Spoils

25 The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. 32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.
36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:
337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the LORD was 675;
38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the LORD was 72;
39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the LORD was 61;
40 16,000 people, of which the tribute for the LORD was 32.
41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.
42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men- 43 the community's half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites' half, Moses selected one out of every fifty persons and animals, as the LORD commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle.
48 Then the officers who were over the units of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—went to Moses 49 and said to him, "Your servants have counted the soldiers under our command, and not one is missing. 50 So we have brought as an offering to the LORD the gold articles each of us acquired—armlets, bracelets, signet rings, earrings and necklaces—to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD."
51 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted from them the gold—all the crafted articles. 52 All the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds that Moses and Eleazar presented as a gift to the LORD weighed 16,750 shekels. [b] 53 Each soldier had taken plunder for himself. 54 Moses and Eleazar the priest accepted the gold from the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds and brought it into the Tent of Meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the LORD.

This Bible study is open to all, whether you accept the Bible as a religious text or not. Questions:

What do we learn from this passage about the nature of God?
What do we learn about the relationship of God and His people?
What do we learn about the relationship of God and non-believers?
Is there any context from elsewhere in the Bible that can help us understand or shed any light on this passage?
Is there any context from ancient history that helps us understand the context of this passage?
Is this passage (and many similar) itself a history, or evidence for same? Are we to believe that these events actually occurred? Did they?
Using this passage a a lens, how can we better understand the Bible and its role in our modern lives?
What does the Lord want with virgins? What was the purpose of giving virgins to the Lord?
How would the Israelites determine who was a virgin?
What do we learn about the important questions of personal responsibility, sin, vengeance and violence?
What do we learn about what is prohibited by the Sixth Commandment? That is, what is, and is not, "murder?"
Is this lesson applicable to modern warfare? What do we learn about war, its justification and methods?
How does this passage relate to other similar and different passages?
How important to God is this matter of killing our enemies? Does the Bible devote a lot of space to it, or a little? Is it encouraged, commanded, discouraged, or prohibited?

Any other questions anyone want to discuss about this Bible passage?

 

[lunamoth]

Any other questions anyone want to discuss about this Bible passage?

What did this mean to the people who wrote it and to whom it was written?

 

[Scott1]

Here is the passage I would like to discuss

Do you really think these verses are a literal account of what happened to the Midianites?

Do you believe that this or any other small quote from Scripture can be used as a "lens to better understand the Bible and its role in our modern lives", or is this one special somehow?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Any other questions anyone want to discuss about this Bible passage?

Yes. Why would you pretend that you're interested in Bible Study rather than Bible Ridicule?

 

[Random]

The Lord might seem like a complete and utter *******...but he's still God. Just have to deal with it.

 

[texan1]

Do you really think these verses are a literal account of what happened to the Midianites?

What is your take on it? What does it symbolize? I have posted questions on this forum in the past about the Old Testament and it is interesting to hear how people interpret it because at face value such passages are difficult to comprehend and hard to swallow. Any thoughts about this one?

 

[Scott1]

What is your take on it?

Thanks for asking.

What does it symbolize? I have posted questions on this forum in the past about the Old Testament and it is interesting to hear how people interpret it because at face value such passages are difficult to comprehend and hard to swallow. Any thoughts about this one?

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture:
1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture".
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church".
3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.

.... so I don't like to pick out a verse of section of the Bible and use it as a "lens" or anything like that. I read read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen.... and anything that does not direct me to that truth does not have direct releveance to my salvation and I kinda don't care much for it.... don't get me wrong, I belive it is the word of God, but not every verse in the Bible is to be disected or taken literally.

Peace be with you.
Scott

 

[texan1]

Thanks Scott. But using the three criteria you mention above, what would you (or anyone else reading this thread) make of this passage?

anything that does not direct me to that truth does not have direct releveance to my salvation and I kinda don't care much for it.... don't get me wrong, I belive it is the word of God, but not every verse in the Bible is to be disected or taken literally.

This is where I get confused. And this is why I started questioning my faith to begin with. There are some lovely passages in the New Testament, but why is it okay for Christians to sort of disregard much of the Old Testament, including passages like this? People just seem to believe the parts that suit them and then seem critical of others who don't accept the Bible as the Truth. I'm never able to get a clear answer from anyone. I understand it can't be taken literally......so how can it be taken? I'm not trying to pick on you or anything (so hard to get tone of voice across in this virtual world), but I would really be interested in an answer for this, or an interpretation of this passage despite the fact that some of you may question the motivation/intention of the op.

 

[Scott1]

Thanks Scott. But using the three criteria you mention above, what would you (or anyone else reading this thread) make of this passage?

That it is a story....part of the Jewish culture/history of the person(s) who wrote the passage.

There are some lovely passages in the New Testament, but why is it okay for Christians to sort of disregard much of the Old Testament, including passages like this?

I don't disregard it or any of the Old Testament... it's just that some parts are more relevant to my faith than others... and as far as why it is "ok", well, my Church has a teaching office that is protected by the Holy Spirit from error.... it's not like the Protestant groups who make up their minds individually however it suits them, so I don't have an issue with this sort of thing... I'm sorry it confuses you... I remember these sorts of things bothering me before I became Catholic.

Just FYI, some more Church teaching on the OT:
"...the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional," the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."(CCC#122)

 

[Autodidact]

What did this mean to the people who wrote it and to whom it was written?

Sounds good. Any thoughts?

 

[Autodidact]

Do you really think these verses are a literal account of what happened to the Midianites?

No, do you? They may have been intended that way by their authors however.

How do you take them? Literally true? Metaphor? If so, for what? Allegory or parable? If so, what message or lesson are they meant to convey? Intended to be historically accurate, but not? If so, how much of the Bible falls into this category, and how do you tell?

Do you believe that this or any other small quote from Scripture can be used as a "lens to better understand the Bible and its role in our modern lives", or is this one special somehow?

Yes, I think the best way to understand text is to read it.
Special? Not really, fairly typical, but raises some interesting issues, I think, don't you?

btw, if it doesn't interest you, why not just refrain from entering the discussion?

 

[Autodidact]

Yes. Why would you pretend that you're interested in Bible Study rather than Bible Ridicule?

Why would you assume the Bible is easily ridiculed, or that studying it lends easily in that direction?
Do you think that holy books should only be studied by people who agree with them?
Is it your habit to jump to conclusions about other people?
Is there some rule against ridiculing the Bible?
If the Bible is so vulnerable to mockery, don't you think those here who love it are not capable of rising to its defense?
How might this passage be defended? After all, all I did was quote verbatim; is it self-ridiculing?

 

[Autodidact]

Thanks for asking.

The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture:
1. Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture".
2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church".
3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.

.... so I don't like to pick out a verse of section of the Bible and use it as a "lens" or anything like that. I read read the Old Testament in the light of Christ crucified and risen.... and anything that does not direct me to that truth does not have direct releveance to my salvation and I kinda don't care much for it.... don't get me wrong, I belive it is the word of God, but not every verse in the Bible is to be disected or taken literally.

Peace be with you.
Scott

So how do you take it? If not literally, how are we meant to read it? What does it mean? Why did God give us this particular word? What is He trying to teach us?

Wouldn't all of God's commandments be helpful in attaining salvation? Or don't you have to pay attention to God's word until He has a baby?

 

[Autodidact]

That it is a story....part of the Jewish culture/history of the person(s) who wrote the passage.

I don't disregard it or any of the Old Testament... it's just that some parts are more relevant to my faith than others... and as far as why it is "ok", well, my Church has a teaching office that is protected by the Holy Spirit from error.... it's not like the Protestant groups who make up their minds individually however it suits them, so I don't have an issue with this sort of thing... I'm sorry it confuses you... I remember these sorts of things bothering me before I became Catholic.

Just FYI, some more Church teaching on the OT:
"...the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men." "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional," the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God's saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."(CCC#122)

Has the Vatican issued any commentary on this passage or others like it? What does the teaching office teach you about this passage?

So this passage is part of the "storehouse of sublime teaching on God and sound wisdom on human life." What does it teach you? What does it tell you about human life? What can we learn from it?

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe from this passage that God actually did command the Israelites to slay the Midianites?

 

[GadFly]

Has the Vatican issued any commentary on this passage or others like it? What does the teaching office teach you about this passage?

So this passage is part of the "storehouse of sublime teaching on God and sound wisdom on human life." What does it teach you? What does it tell you about human life? What can we learn from it?

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe from this passage that God actually did command the Israelites to slay the Midianites?

Congratulations Autodidact, you have a very good,thought out thread going. Here is what these questions have taught us.To this point Christians have been very civil with you. I agree with the Catholic brother who does not resent having to answer the questions about this thread even though we know it teases us and is loading up to reveal possible chinks in our armor. But what Christians must do is explain these referenced scriptures in their proper context and these verses do not pose a problem for us at all in the defense of faith. That of course is how we see it and not how you see it.

The context of these scriptures were meant to be presented from the living word of God. The Scriptures may appear to be dead to you but these actually alive and should be interpreted in the context of John 1:1-9. The verses we are challenged to explain are alive only when these are used by the reasoning of the Holy Spirit. To quote verses out of this Spirit makes the verses quoted "not" the word of God. When quoted out of the Spirit of God. they become the spirit of anti Christ or what Christians refer to the Angle of Light, which is the Devil. The Devil quoted the Bible to Jesus, you know.

This really does explain the context of the Scriptures you quote. Atheist can quote Bible verses but he can not handle the WORD. The following is purely a theological and intellectual observation. Do not take this personally, but we must consider that you are, biblically speaking, our evil adversary come in the spirit of Satan with your leading questions. Representing the Devil by being an atheist, Christians must consider your questions to have an evil purpose. That is the context of the mentioned verses. Nothing personal, you understand, but that's what you represent. With that being said, all Christians should show you the same respect you have show us.

To further elaborate on how these Scriptures should be interpreted, keep in mind Bible verses always say more than what the words and ink say they say. It is like poetry. Some can not read poetry well because they fail to read hidden meanings. The actual written meaning and hidden meaning are both equally true!

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe from this passage that God actually did command the Israelites to slay the Midianites?

With this question, you let the cat out of the bag. Yes, God really did command Israel to slay the Midianites. God was telling the atheist and challengers of God's people, in plain English (KJV) what would happen to them when they opposed Christians today who have been brought out of bandage. See what the Bible says atheist and none believers have to look for in the future?

I hope this clears up a lot of future questions on this thread. Eventually one of Satan's atheist will say, why did a loving God kill all the Medianites, even the little children? Or, one will say, why did't God simply preach to them? Well, there are many good answers that Christians can give for this type of question, just like the ones that ask why God can not make a rock bigger than he can throw. If you ask these questions, one of us Christians will answer these but you'll still be our enemy (theologically speaking). God bless
GadFly

 

[uss_bigd]

Congratulations Autodidact, you have a very good,thought out thread going. Here is what these questions have taught us.To this point Christians have been very civil with you. I agree with the Catholic brother who does not resent having to answer the questions about this thread even though we know it teases us and is loading up to reveal possible chinks in our armor. But what Christians must do is explain these referenced scriptures in their proper context and these verses do not pose a problem for us at all in the defense of faith. That of course is how we see it and not how you see it.

The context of these scriptures were meant to be presented from the living word of God. The Scriptures may appear to be dead to you but these actually alive and should be interpreted in the context of John 1:1-9. The verses we are challenged to explain are alive only when these are used by the reasoning of the Holy Spirit. To quote verses out of this Spirit makes the verses quoted "not" the word of God. When quoted out of the Spirit of God. they become the spirit of anti Christ or what Christians refer to the Angle of Light, which is the Devil. The Devil quoted the Bible to Jesus, you know.

This really does explain the context of the Scriptures you quote. Atheist can quote Bible verses but he can not handle the WORD. The following is purely a theological and intellectual observation. Do not take this personally, but we must consider that you are, biblically speaking, our evil adversary come in the spirit of Satan with your leading questions. Representing the Devil by being an atheist, Christians must consider your questions to have an evil purpose. That is the context of the mentioned verses. Nothing personal, you understand, but that's what you represent. With that being said, all Christians should show you the same respect you have show us.

To further elaborate on how these Scriptures should be interpreted, keep in mind Bible verses always say more than what the words and ink say they say. It is like poetry. Some can not read poetry well because they fail to read hidden meanings. The actual written meaning and hidden meaning are both equally true!

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe from this passage that God actually did command the Israelites to slay the Midianites?

With this question, you let the cat out of the bag. Yes, God really did command Israel to slay the Midianites. God was telling the atheist and challengers of God's people, in plain English (KJV) what would happen to them when they opposed Christians today who have been brought out of bandage. See what the Bible says atheist and none believers have to look for in the future?

I hope this clears up a lot of future questions on this thread. Eventually one of Satan's atheist will say, why did a loving God kill all the Medianites, even the little children? Or, one will say, why did't God simply preach to them? Well, there are many good answers that Christians can give for this type of question, just like the ones that ask why God can not make a rock bigger than he can throw. If you ask these questions, one of us Christians will answer these but you'll still be our enemy (theologically speaking). God bless
GadFly

:bow::bow::bow:

 

[GadFly]

Thanks Scott. But using the three criteria you mention above, what would you (or anyone else reading this thread) make of this passage?

This is where I get confused. And this is why I started questioning my faith to begin with. There are some lovely passages in the New Testament, but why is it okay for Christians to sort of disregard much of the Old Testament, including passages like this? People just seem to believe the parts that suit them and then seem critical of others who don't accept the Bible as the Truth. I'm never able to get a clear answer from anyone. I understand it can't be taken literally......so how can it be taken? I'm not trying to pick on you or anything (so hard to get tone of voice across in this virtual world), but I would really be interested in an answer for this, or an interpretation of this passage despite the fact that some of you may question the motivation/intention of the op.

The intentions of the op are clear, are they not? But it is people like you who deserve to have any questions you have about God to be answered by the people who claim to be of God. The answers are out there for you. Atheist are not motivated to give the answers and Christians in many cases have not tried to answer for whatever reason. I am relatively new to this forum but one of the first things I noticed was how intelligent many of the theist and Christians are on these threads. Stick with your questions and I believe somebody will step forward with the answers.

The Bible, in its entirety, is to be interpreted and quoted in the Spirit of the New Testament. The New Testament has given life to the Old Testament. That is what is meant by John 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This thing of having to be flawless in order to be perfectly true is a semantical distinguishable thing. The important thing is that the Bible tells the truth about God and the relationship of man with God. All other misunderstandings about the Bible can be explained by history, the atrophy of languages and cultures, and man's inability to reason things out.

A problem you are having is with what other people decide to do and how they react to the Bible. I have read several of your postings and I can tell you for sure that you are better prepared in reasoning and logical ability to answer the questions you have about the Bible than the people you are asking for the answers. Let it be your faith, whatever it might be, that makes decisions on religious matters.Don't doubt your faith because others can not live by what you think they should. If you wait until other people do the right things in life before you do, you'll always be in the dark.

I rediscovered God through natural theology, that is without the Bible. After that discovery, the Bible made more sense to me. The longer natural theology guides me, the better I understand the Bible. Believe what feels right to your honest thirst for truth, and all this written down stuff in the Bible will eventually come clear to you. I found out that I had to unlearn a lot more than I learned about the Bible before I could accept it as true. Anyway, what I am trying to say to you is to trust your intelligence and be honest and you'll figure it out yourself.
GadFly

 

[uss_bigd]

Thanks Scott. But using the three criteria you mention above, what would you (or anyone else reading this thread) make of this passage?



This is where I get confused. And this is why I started questioning my faith to begin with. There are some lovely passages in the New Testament, but why is it okay for Christians to sort of disregard much of the Old Testament, including passages like this? People just seem to believe the parts that suit them and then seem critical of others who don't accept the Bible as the Truth. I'm never able to get a clear answer from anyone. I understand it can't be taken literally......so how can it be taken? I'm not trying to pick on you or anything (so hard to get tone of voice across in this virtual world), but I would really be interested in an answer for this, or an interpretation of this passage despite the fact that some of you may question the motivation/intention of the op.

Which partcular passage do you wish to clarify?

 

[Autodidact]

Congratulations Autodidact, you have a very good,thought out thread going. Here is what these questions have taught us.To this point Christians have been very civil with you. I agree with the Catholic brother who does not resent having to answer the questions about this thread even though we know it teases us and is loading up to reveal possible chinks in our armor.

I got the impression that he did resent it.

But what Christians must do is explain these referenced scriptures in their proper context and these verses do not pose a problem for us at all in the defense of faith. That of course is how we see it and not how you see it.

And now here comes the part where you do just that.

The context of these scriptures were meant to be presented from the living word of God. The Scriptures may appear to be dead to you but these actually alive and should be interpreted in the context of John 1:1-9. The verses we are challenged to explain are alive only when these are used by the reasoning of the Holy Spirit. To quote verses out of this Spirit makes the verses quoted "not" the word of God. When quoted out of the Spirit of God. they become the spirit of anti Christ or what Christians refer to the Angle of Light, which is the Devil. The Devil quoted the Bible to Jesus, you know.

I think it's less arrogant to present your opinions as just that, opinions, and not announce them as if they were fact. We are all equal in our right to have our own opinions about this matter, and no one's opinion is entitled to be taken as fact. So your opinion is that if a non-Christian quotes the Bible, they become the equivalent of the Bible.

This really does explain the context of the Scriptures you quote.

Sorry, I missed that actual explanation part.

Atheist can quote Bible verses but he can not handle the WORD.

I think I can handle it. Lay it on me.

The following is purely a theological and intellectual observation. Do not take this personally, but we must consider that you are, biblically speaking, our evil adversary come in the spirit of Satan with your leading questions. Representing the Devil by being an atheist, Christians must consider your questions to have an evil purpose. That is the context of the mentioned verses. Nothing personal, you understand, but that's what you represent. With that being said, all Christians should show you the same respect you have show us.

Right, don't take it personally but because I cited a Bible verse that you're not comfortable with, I'm the Devil. Why should that offend me? Would you be offended if someone that you hadn't harmed in any way, merely asked them a question, called you a Devil?

Have you ever noticed how Christians have a near total incapacity for seeing things from the other person's point of view?

To further elaborate on how these Scriptures should be interpreted, keep in mind Bible verses always say more than what the words and ink say they say. It is like poetry. Some can not read poetry well because they fail to read hidden meanings. The actual written meaning and hidden meaning are both equally true!

And somehow I think you're going to take the position that you, humble Gadfly, have the unique authority to tell us what they really mean, in spite of what they actually say.

If I understand you correctly, you don't believe from this passage that God actually did command the Israelites to slay the Midianites?

With this question, you let the cat out of the bag. Yes, God really did command Israel to slay the Midianites. God was telling the atheist and challengers of God's people, in plain English (KJV) what would happen to them when they opposed Christians today who have been brought out of bandage. See what the Bible says atheist and none believers have to look for in the future?

So the point of that passage is that if I refuse to accept your myth-system, you will kill me and my children? That's what you get from this passage?

I hope this clears up a lot of future questions on this thread.

Well it clears up a lot about you, Gadfly. *note to self: Do not tell Gadfly real name or location.

Eventually one of Satan's atheist will say, why did a loving God kill all the Medianites, even the little children? Or, one will say, why did't God simply preach to them? Well, there are many good answers that Christians can give for this type of question, just like the ones that ask why God can not make a rock bigger than he can throw. If you ask these questions, one of us Christians will answer these but you'll still be our enemy (theologically speaking). God bless
GadFly

Go for it. Let's hear those good answers.

 

[Autodidact]

Reading further down the thread, apparently uss_agrees with everything you said: When atheists quote the Bible, they turn into devils, and what happens to such people is that they get killed, along with their children.

I really appreciate both of you drawing out the contemporary relevance of these verses, that the despicable, barbaric and evil anti-morality portrayed here is still alive in the modern world, embodied in Christians like you. Good to know.