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Bible study, open to all

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
What the heck is the criticism of my motivation? I thought this was a debate forum. Apparently citing your holy book and asking you for some kind of explanation is not considered permissible debate tactic? Why not? This is the book you're asking us to use to guide our lives, and we're not allowed to try to figure out what the heck it means? Only people who accept this book as the word of God are allowed to discuss it? Only praise is allowed? O.K., go for it, Christians and Jews, praise it. Tell all about how great it is to make sure you go back and kill all the babies. This is your chance to persuade us that this is the one book in all the world we should be living by.
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Alright, we've had one perspective shared by two Christians here, that the purpose of these passages is to warn non-Christians that unless they convert, they may be slaughtered by the Midianites. Speaking as a Jew, the descendant of people who were faced with that very choice, that does not come as a shock to me. That is in fact the position that many Christians have taken: that non-Christians who do not submit to their religion should be murdered, and I think it is accurate to trace that philosophy back to passages such as these, so I think Gadfly is on the right track.

Do any other Christians or Jews here differ from that interpretation?
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
Alright, we've had one perspective shared by two Christians here, that the purpose of these passages is to warn non-Christians that unless they convert, they may be slaughtered by the Midianites. Speaking as a Jew, the descendant of people who were faced with that very choice, that does not come as a shock to me. That is in fact the position that many Christians have taken: that non-Christians who do not submit to their religion should be murdered, and I think it is accurate to trace that philosophy back to passages such as these, so I think Gadfly is on the right track.

Do any other Christians or Jews here differ from that interpretation?



Yes, I think the slaughter of the Midianites was very plain. Jews killed those that were against them.
No Jews were to " convert" anyone, just kill there attackers. Which they did with Gods help.

Again, now we do not Kill others but now love them. So today we would Love the Midianites and share the love of Jesus.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
How do you take them?
I answered this (and most of your other comments/questions)in post #9.
Has the Vatican issued any commentary on this passage or others like it? What does the teaching office teach you about this passage?
The Church has not ever issued an official "Bible commentary" and does not try to disect each and every verse.... our faith is comes from Scripture AND Tradition where everything should be understood in light of the risen Jesus.... so you can take passages like this as an example of the barbarism of man and the need for a Savior to promote peace and the sacredness of life.
If I understand you correctly, you don't believe from this passage that God actually did command the Israelites to slay the Midianites?
No... not for a second do I believe God is involved with humanity in such a way... neither for good or for evil.... I just don't think God works that way.

Thanks for the questions.
Scott
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
that non-Christians who do not submit to their religion should be murdered, and I think it is accurate to trace that philosophy back to passages such as these, so I think Gadfly is on the right track.

Do any other Christians or Jews here differ from that interpretation?
I differ from that interpretation.... as both a Jew and a Catholic.:)
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
Yes, I think the slaughter of the Midianites was very plain. Jews killed those that were against them.
No Jews were to " convert" anyone, just kill there attackers. Which they did with Gods help.
Well actually God commanded them to do so, didn't He? And take their virgins for themselves, other than the 32 they were to give to the Lord? And be sure to kill all the little boys?

So you think this passage is meant to be taken literally? You differ from the Catholic poster above regarding this?

O.K., so what should we conclude about the nature of God?

Why did God change from wanting us to kill each other to wanting us to love each other?

Why did God want the Jews to kill all the other Canaanite tribes?

Again, now we do not Kill others but now love them. So today we would Love the Midianites and share the love of Jesus.
So you would differ from Gadly and uss_, who think the point of this passage is that people who don't join your religion should be killed, today? You think God has changed his policy in this regard?
 

Autodidact

Intentionally Blank
I answered this (and most of your other comments/questions)in post #9.

The Church has not ever issued an official "Bible commentary" and does not try to disect each and every verse.... our faith is comes from Scripture AND Tradition where everything should be understood in light of the risen Jesus.... so you can take passages like this as an example of the barbarism of man and the need for a Savior to promote peace and the sacredness of life.
How do you get that interpretation? Doesn't God get angry at the Israelites for failing to be barbaric enough, and command them to go back and kill the babies that they, in their mere humanity, had neglected to kill in the first round?

So you're saying that the Bible condemns these actions of the Israelites? What part of the passage do you think expresses that condemnation?

No... not for a second do I believe God is involved with humanity in such a way... neither for good or for evil.... I just don't think God works that way.
Any other Christians want to defend their belief that is how God works?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
How do you get that interpretation?
Again, I read the Bible as the Word of God and not as if each and every sentence was a literal account of history...
Doesn't God get angry at the Israelites for failing to be barbaric enough, and command them to go back and kill the babies that they, in their mere humanity, had neglected to kill in the first round?
Listen, I get it ok.... the atheist really wants all us stupid Christians to look at this verse (apparently for the first time--- or the first time without our secret-squirrel brainwashing helmet on) and come to the OBVIOUS conclusion that God is vidictive, evil, a virgin taking-little boy killing ****** that we should not worship.... I get it... geez, I think everyone on this thread understands what you are trying to do.

..... but if you are going to just ignore my replies and my opinions on Scripture, please stick to talking to the Protestants who think God kills and we should kill non-Christians.... you'll have a lot more fun with them.
 

uss_bigd

Well-Known Member
Again, I read the Bible as the Word of God and not as if each and every sentence was a literal account of history...

Listen, I get it ok.... the atheist really wants all us stupid Christians to look at this verse (apparently for the first time--- or the first time without our secret-squirrel brainwashing helmet on) and come to the OBVIOUS conclusion that God is vidictive, evil, a virgin taking-little boy killing ****** that we should not worship.... I get it... geez, I think everyone on this thread understands what you are trying to do.

..... but if you are going to just ignore my replies and my opinions on Scripture, please stick to talking to the Protestants who think God kills and we should kill non-Christians.... you'll have a lot more fun with them.


:bow::bow::bow:
 

texan1

Active Member
The intentions of the op are clear, are they not? But it is people like you who deserve to have any questions you have about God to be answered by the people who claim to be of God.

I don't understand why it is okay for me to ask, but Autodidact is the devil for asking. I have never heard anything like that before. Your extreme response to her has confused me even more. Did Jesus consider anyone who questioned a bible verse to be the devil? Strange....strange...I don't understand.

The answers are out there for you. Atheist are not motivated to give the answers and Christians in many cases have not tried to answer for whatever reason. I am relatively new to this forum but one of the first things I noticed was how intelligent many of the theist and Christians are on these threads. Stick with your questions and I believe somebody will step forward with the answers.

The Bible, in its entirety, is to be interpreted and quoted in the Spirit of the New Testament. The New Testament has given life to the Old Testament. That is what is meant by John 6:63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This thing of having to be flawless in order to be perfectly true is a semantical distinguishable thing. The important thing is that the Bible tells the truth about God and the relationship of man with God. All other misunderstandings about the Bible can be explained by history, the atrophy of languages and cultures, and man's inability to reason things out.

Okay. This is a totally understandable and fair response. Why couldn't you start with this instead of calling someone the devil? I was just hoping for more specifics about this passage in particular with regards to it's context, history, etc. I am truly interested.

A problem you are having is with what other people decide to do and how they react to the Bible. I have read several of your postings and I can tell you for sure that you are better prepared in reasoning and logical ability to answer the questions you have about the Bible than the people you are asking for the answers. Let it be your faith, whatever it might be, that makes decisions on religious matters.Don't doubt your faith because others can not live by what you think they should. If you wait until other people do the right things in life before you do, you'll always be in the dark.

I don't believe in any particular religion. Whether or not someone is a true believer, the Bible is probably the most important piece of literature in our history when you consider its impact worldwide. It was one of the first books printed and has been translated into countless languages. What's wrong with asking about it and trying to learn more?

I rediscovered God through natural theology, that is without the Bible. After that discovery, the Bible made more sense to me. The longer natural theology guides me, the better I understand the Bible. Believe what feels right to your honest thirst for truth, and all this written down stuff in the Bible will eventually come clear to you. I found out that I had to unlearn a lot more than I learned about the Bible before I could accept it as true. Anyway, what I am trying to say to you is to trust your intelligence and be honest and you'll figure it out yourself.
GadFly

And if no one is able to give more insight into this particular passage without accusing someone of being evil, are there any resources you might recommend?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
This Bible study is open to all, whether you accept the Bible as a religious text or not. Questions:

What do we learn from this passage about the nature of God?

What I learn is that God will support those who obey His commands.

What do we learn about the relationship of God and His people?

Same thing.

What do we learn about the relationship of God and non-believers?

That if they are a force for leading His people astray then they will be held accountable for their actions. OF course that is general and not specific to this situation.

Is there any context from elsewhere in the Bible that can help us understand or shed any light on this passage?

I'm not sure. Maybe I'll looks some up some day.

Is there any context from ancient history that helps us understand the context of this passage?

Same thing.

Is this passage (and many similar) itself a history, or evidence for same? Are we to believe that these events actually occurred? Did they?

I believe they did occur. But it wouldn't be a huge problem if they actually didn't. I am occasionally a believer in the theory of exagerated Bible numbers.

Using this passage a a lens, how can we better understand the Bible and its role in our modern lives?

Obey the commandments and God will bless you.

What does the Lord want with virgins? What was the purpose of giving virgins to the Lord?

I don't know. Ask Him.

How would the Israelites determine who was a virgin?

How does any person determine who is a virgin?

What do we learn about the important questions of personal responsibility, sin, vengeance and violence?

I think it just basically speaks about the importance of obeying God's commandments.

What do we learn about what is prohibited by the Sixth Commandment? That is, what is, and is not, "murder?"

We learn that if God commands a person to kill then it is not held against that person as murder.

Is this lesson applicable to modern warfare? What do we learn about war, its justification and methods?

I don't know. I've never been in war.

How does this passage relate to other similar and different passages?

I dunno.

How important to God is this matter of killing our enemies?

In certain situations it could be very important. But I think as a general rule we should avoid having enemies.

Does the Bible devote a lot of space to it, or a little?

I'm not sure.

Is it encouraged, commanded, discouraged, or prohibited?

It depends on the situation.

Any other questions anyone want to discuss about this Bible passage?

Not that I can thinkof. But I'm sure you will think of some more.
 

GadFly

Active Member
I don't understand why it is okay for me to ask, but Autodidact is the devil for asking. I have never heard anything like that before. Your extreme response to her has confused me even more. Did Jesus consider anyone who questioned a bible verse to be the devil? Strange....strange...I don't understand.

Okay. This is a totally understandable and fair response. Why couldn't you start with this instead of calling someone the devil? I was just hoping for more specifics about this passage in particular with regards to it's context, history, etc. I am truly interested.

I don't believe in any particular religion. Whether or not someone is a true believer, the Bible is probably the most important piece of literature in our history when you consider its impact worldwide. It was one of the first books printed and has been translated into countless languages. What's wrong with asking about it and trying to learn more?

And if no one is able to give more insight into this particular passage without accusing someone of being evil, are there any resources you might recommend?
First, allow me to point out that atheist certainly are not the best people to script what a Christian is really like. Secondly. Autodidact is what she is. She is an atheist with an agenda. Everybody except maybe you can see this. Her purposes for discussing Scriptures is agenda driven by her atheistic desire to cause confusion and pick at theist.

Also, if you have read what I said with an open ear, you know that I only pointed out whose position in a debate she is on. She has chosen theologically to take Satan's side of the argument; therefore, she represents the Devil's position. She is not the Devil but she likes his point of view. You are welcome to that point of view too if you like it. We are all free to make up our own minds. Autodidact also post that she is the head lesbian, which that also is her choice; but, I also notice she is a lawyer and she is certainly wise enough to know that posting you are a head lesbian among Christians would raise a few eye brawls. I assume she is intelligent but any lawyer who is a head lesbian would not expect to be well received as a speaker in a Christian debate in most places.

I think she has been well received here but many of us disagree with her motives. She has approached us as if we are stupid baby killers. We admit that God told Israel to kill the Medinites' children. We did not kill these children but we correctly predicted that she would make this accusation as I think you might have done so also. This is a debate tactic you see from atheist everytime you discussion religion with them and it comes from their desire to embarrass Christians. Christians do believe the Devil's position is evil, or did you not already know this before you blamed us for calling Autodidact's position evil. With me, I was not calling anybody a name but lust pointing out her theological position. That's fair here.

You say you are truly interested in historical context. Somehow I don't believe you. If you are interested, what is to keep you from doing your own reading and research? I think you are too anxious to blame the people of faith for you lack of understanding. It is not our fault you do not read all the many passages in the four Gospels where Jesus argued bitterly with the Scribes and Pharisees over the meaning of the Scriptures. Since Ale Gore invented the internet, there is no way you can successfully claim Christians have not pointed out any sources to help your lack of understanding. Me thinks you've played dumb for the last time with the GadFly. My intentions were well meaning towards you but I don't think you have reciprocated by making the accusations posted here. I may be mistaken but I am sure you will correct me if I am.
God Bless, the GadFly
 

GadFly

Active Member
Texan1 if you are really interested in asking questions without an agenda as Autodidact has, response #31 just above us, gives an excellent response to Autodidact. If extreme responses bother you, there are pastors with whom you can consult that generally exercise the tenderness you seek. Me, I just am an old GadFly who has a take or leave it attitude and call it as I see it bug.

You talk about the Bible being translated into many languages. Well, GadFlys do not speak in tongues and if the King James Verson was good enough for Peter and Paul , it is good enough for me.

Now, don't you see from this that it might be too much to expect an atheist to give you more insight on any Scriptures since I have it from God that they do not use the KJV of the Bible?

Remember, you heard it here first, the world is flat. The GadFly (Emagine God's people being against evil)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
GadFlys do not speak in tongues and if the King James Verson was good enough for Peter and Paul , it is good enough for me.
Ummm.... sorry... gotta ask..... Peter and Paul the Apostles read the King James Version of the Bible?
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Autodidact, Gadfly is right, You have an agenda and that is very plain to see.... But you know just keep right on reading that Bible, while you are trying to use God's word to discredit Him, you might just find something that will change your life....God's word will not return void....

II Tim 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

I will be praying, not for you, but because of you, have a good night ;)
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Ummm.... sorry... gotta ask..... Peter and Paul the Apostles read the King James Version of the Bible?


No but they lived it, Isn't that good enough, I think that evidence stands for itself.

Secondly they wrote it, I think that associates them with the New Testament
well enough don't you?I


:slap: We know Autodidact's agenda what's yours?
 

Sola'lor

LDSUJC
No but they lived it, Isn't that good enough, I think that evidence stands for itself.

Secondly they wrote it, I think that associates them with the New Testament
well enough don't you?I


:slap: We know Autodidact's agenda what's yours?

Actually the didn't live it. They lived the collection of scriptures that were around at that time and not all of them were assembled into one book. They also in the language that the people of that time spoke. Not KJV english.
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
Actually the didn't live it. They lived the collection of scriptures that were around at that time and not all of them were assembled into one book. They also in the language that the people of that time spoke. Not KJV english.


I was only trying to say what it appeared that Gadfly meant when he made his last post...I don't think he intended for his statement to interpret as it did. He stated "If it was good enough for Peter and Paul it was good enough for him" He wasn't meaning they read it.....

I was just saying they lived it, they were part of the New Testament. They both were authors of the New Testament.....

They were there, they lived during New Testament times. Peter was a disciple and walked with Jesus daily. Saul (Paul) came into ministry after the death of Jesus. He was asked of or (called) by God. Paul is responsible for writing most of the New Testament. In retrospect I guess you could say some of them read it, the people to whom Paul wrote his letters, Timothy actually read the New Testament, even though at the time I'm sure he was not aware that the letters he was reading would be held in such reverence........and go on to become part of the New Testament...

Sorry we sort of got away from the topic.....
So Let's enjoy our walk of faith, and support one another in peace and love.;)
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
No but they lived it, Isn't that good enough, I think that evidence stands for itself.
I was interested in GadFly's answer, but thanks for your opinion.... and no... I don't believe it is good enough... I don't know what "evidence" you speak of, can you tell me?
Secondly they wrote it, I think that associates them with the New Testament
well enough don't you?
How do you know they wrote it?
:slap: We know Autodidact's agenda what's yours?
Convert everyone to the Catholic Church.... duh.:rolleyes:
 

GadFly

Active Member
Ummm.... sorry... gotta ask..... Peter and Paul the Apostles read the King James Version of the Bible?
See what you started. You Catholic people are as bad as the Gadfly. You have the ability to raise a fuss over nothing just like the GadFly. Why did you not rebuff the truth that the world is flat? See, you are looking at things from your own point of view.
GadFly stings are catching. Beware.
 
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