Bible study, open to all

[Autodidact]

We're not. It's obvious you're trying to "discredit" the Bible by quoting Numbers 31 without Numbers 25 also. If you didn't know about Numbers 25, then its obvious you just went to some website and copied your post from there. In either case, you made no attempt to read the text, so of course you don't understand it.

O.K. great, this is responsive, context. This is helpful. (And I wish everyone would stop focusing on my motives and start focusing on the content of what I'm saying.)

By reading chapter 25 you can see that the Midianites purposely sent women to tempt Israel into idolatry and sexual immorality, and some of the Israelites did. God hates these behaviors and both Israelites and Midianites were killed as punishment, the Israelites first in chapter 25 and Midianites in chapter 31.

Here is the chapter referred to:

1 While Israel was staying in ****tim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, 2 who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. 3 So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the LORD's anger burned against them...6 Then an Israelite man brought to his family a Midianite woman right before the eyes of Moses and the whole assembly of Israel while they were weeping at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 7 When Phinehas son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron, the priest, saw this, he left the assembly, took a spear in his hand 8 and followed the Israelite into the tent. He drove the spear through both of them—through the Israelite and into the woman's body. Then the plague against the Israelites was stopped; 9 but those who died in the plague numbered 24,000.... 16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, 18 because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Actually I'm confused by this passage, as a Moabite is not the same as a Midianite. As I understand it, some Moabite women slept with some Israelite men and proselytized to them and persuaded them to join their religion. So again, you have that whole double standard, where it's great to proselytize, but horrible when anyone else does it.

But then it's confusing because they kill a Midianite woman, Cozbi, and it's not at all clear what, if anything, she did wrong. And then God tells them to treat all Midianites as enemies and kill all of them.

Then some time passes--I don't know how much, and then the Israelites take their revenge on Midianites in general (again, I'm not sure for what exactly) and are instructed by God to be sure to kill all of them.

Now to me as a more modern person, this seems like a very Barbaric, primitive, tribal way of life, the worst of human nature, and the exact sort of thing that we need to move beyond and have not yet. Not a good model for your ethics, IMO. The worst part of it is the idea that a Midianite should be held responsible for something another Midianite did a hundred years ago, and especially a little baby who obviously hadn't been born. Again, for me as an atheist and an ethical person, I think that individual personal responsibility is really fundamental to any coherent moral system. That I am responsible for what I do and no one else can or should suffer for that, and I should never treat say for example all Christians as my enemies, just because your grandparents slaughtered my grandparents for no reason. I should let that go and move on and see if we can live together, not perpetuate eternal warfare between our tribes, don't you agree?

Also, the 6th commandment is do not murder, it is not do not kill. Murder means to kill unlawfully. There are certainly situations in which killing is lawful: self-defense, punishment for crime, etc..

Exactly. And included in permissible killing is killing babies of other tribes, especially if their ancestors did something offensive to God. That's your moral system, right?

I find it funny how Atheists claim to be so logical, yet they don't even seem to know how to read or how to use a dictionary.

What do you mean? What are you referring to?

 

[uss_bigd]

O.K. great, this is responsive, context. This is helpful. (And I wish everyone would stop focusing on my motives and start focusing on the content of what I'm saying.)


Here is the chapter referred to:

Actually I'm confused by this passage, as a Moabite is not the same as a Midianite. As I understand it, some Moabite women slept with some Israelite men and proselytized to them and persuaded them to join their religion. So again, you have that whole double standard, where it's great to proselytize, but horrible when anyone else does it.

But then it's confusing because they kill a Midianite woman, Cozbi, and it's not at all clear what, if anything, she did wrong. And then God tells them to treat all Midianites as enemies and kill all of them.

Then some time passes--I don't know how much, and then the Israelites take their revenge on Midianites in general (again, I'm not sure for what exactly) and are instructed by God to be sure to kill all of them.

Now to me as a more modern person, this seems like a very Barbaric, primitive, tribal way of life, the worst of human nature, and the exact sort of thing that we need to move beyond and have not yet. Not a good model for your ethics, IMO. The worst part of it is the idea that a Midianite should be held responsible for something another Midianite did a hundred years ago, and especially a little baby who obviously hadn't been born. Again, for me as an atheist and an ethical person, I think that individual personal responsibility is really fundamental to any coherent moral system. That I am responsible for what I do and no one else can or should suffer for that, and I should never treat say for example all Christians as my enemies, just because your grandparents slaughtered my grandparents for no reason. I should let that go and move on and see if we can live together, not perpetuate eternal warfare between our tribes, don't you agree?

Exactly. And included in permissible killing is killing babies of other tribes, especially if their ancestors did something offensive to God. That's your moral system, right?

What do you mean? What are you referring to?

:thud::thud::thud::thud::thud::thud::thud::thud:

 

[Autodidact]

Did you have some kind of point, uss, and if so, can you use your words?

 

[UnityNow101]

Many people will hold onto their idea of God even though it may go against all rational logic. And there is no way that they can debate some of the tactics used by the god of the old testament unless they fall back on irrational arguments and a barbaric way of thinking. One question, uss. If Israel today went over and killed every single person in Syria and Egypt, but said that the god of Israel had told them to do so, how would you and the world react? It would be absurd and nobody would agree with such a thing.

In the words of Jiddu Krishnamurti:
"The mind is the product of the past, it is the result of yesterday, and can such a mind be open to the unknown? It can only project an image, but that projection is not real; so your God is not God - it is an image of your own making..."

 

[Charity]

Did I interpret your last post as meaning something like :banghead3

:yes: I must agree with you






IITim 3:7
Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth

 

[Autodidact]

Maybe uss is right, and Christians cannot engage in rational discussion focused on the issues, but must resort to prejudice, uncalled for judgmentalism and ad hominem fallacy. Would anyone like to step up and prove him wrong?

 

[Autodidact]

I can't speak for him, but yes I believe he did have a point...

And what might that be, pray tell?

 

[Charity]

And what might that be, pray tell?

What's this an atheist saying "pray tell"

My point is there is no use wasting time trying to answer you questions about the bible.... You don't want to understand.......Many people tried to answer your questions but to you there is no right answer where God is concerned. So is it just for argument's sake that you asked in the first place?

 

[Autodidact]

What's this an atheist saying "pray tell"

The word "pray" has several meanings, and is used here as
4.to make earnest petition to (a person). 5.to make petition or entreaty for; crave:

My point is there is no use wasting time trying to answer you questions about the bible.... You don't want to understand.......Many people tried to answer your questions but to you there is no right answer where God is concerned. So is it just for argument's sake that you asked in the first place?

Unless reason supports your position, you are wasting your time. You have to offer a coherent argument that is supported by the text. I agree entirely that there is no right answer where God is concerned, since God doesn't exist. Of course I asked for argument's sake; that's what the forum is for. If you don't like arguing about these issues, you're in the wrong place.

btw, if there's something you think I have failed to understand (which of course, is not the same thing as failing to agree with), maybe you could explain it to me.

 

[Charity]

The word "pray" has several meanings, and is used here as
4.to make earnest petition to (a person). 5.to make petition or entreaty for; crave:
Unless reason supports your position, you are wasting your time. You have to offer a coherent argument that is supported by the text. I agree entirely that there is no right answer where God is concerned, since God doesn't exist. Of course I asked for argument's sake; that's what the forum is for. If you don't like arguing about these issues, you're in the wrong place.

btw, if there's something you think I have failed to understand (which of course, is not the same thing as failing to agree with), maybe you could explain it to me.

Sorry how presumptuous of me to think that we might be able to reason together rather than argue... Have a wonderful day!

 

[GadFly]

Are you sure? Maybe an outside perspective is the best one. Well yeah, something wrong with that? No big secret. This is a forum for everyone to share their opinions, including atheists. Now this is where you go wrong. I'm not trying to cause confusion, and why would atheists have a special desire to do that. In general, we tend to be people who value reason, and who are trying to cause clarity, not confusion. My goal is to spark discussion so as to lead to greater understanding, not confusion.

Please withdraw this vicious slander immediately. Obviously, I am not more representing the Devil's position than Yahweh's; I don't think either of them exists. Is it your practice to invent vicious lies about other people? I most certainly do not. My point of view is that the Devil does not exist. You seem to be locked into a primitive myth-system in which there are only two categories, God and Devil, and this prevents you from seeing anything out side those two categories. I will try to excuse your slander, but an apology would make it easier to forgive you. My mistake. I thought this was a forum to discuss and debate issues, not my personal life. I thought that even Christians were capable of focusing on the questions, and not on their erroneous judgmental condemnation of someone else's love life. Apparently you disagree? Or maybe it's only you, GadFly, who cannot argue without resorting to the fallacy ad hominim? (ad feminem?)
Read the first post. How did I approach you in that way? Did I call you names? Did I call you stupid? Seems like you're the only calling names, here, GadFly, approaching me as if I'm a pawn of a mythological creature. All that I did was to raise questions that you are finding difficult to answer. If anything, I am crediting you with quite a lot of intelligence. And here I thought that GadFlys liked difficult questions. Maybe not when they're directed at the GadFly? Some of you do; some don't. If you disagree with any of my reasoning, please respond and show how it is erreneous. If not, then it stands. Well, if you advocate infanticide, what does that make you? It's not a tactic, it's the truth, isn't it?

GadFly is sorry if your feelings were hurt in my response to Texan1. I have come to appreciate Texan1 and found her to be very forgiving and flexible person who loves her fellow humans.

My opinion is that this forum is a good place to vent and be vented at, speak your mind and not worry about what people think of you; all this, with the big challenge to be honest with yourself and keep an open mind. If we are not honest with self, we damage no one but ourselves, for others may never know that we reject some enlightenment from those others we debate.

Debating atheist and people different from me has been a wonderful religious experience. In my opinion these people are wrong in many ways but they nevertheless have contributed greatly to my change of attitude towards the world and have taught me some very good lessons. The GadFly is a very different creature than he was when he began on this forum. As you know flies have many, many eyes and maybe I have been using more of these eyes to see more clearly.

As far as insulting you, that was not my intention at all. By informing Christians about your agenda, which you have a right to have as I have one too, which also I think most people see that you have an agenda, but it was my opinion that we were dancing around the issues trying to be tactful. It is usually best to approach things head on; it saves time and words.

Also, it is my observation that you have some emotional issues in your atheistic beliefs. You must have encountered a few hard nosed Christians and crazies out there somewhere to be fearful that one of them might go off the wrong end of the boat and harm one of your children. That could be a problem for you with your different life style, since we hear about things like this in the news regularly. It is my assumption that there is a price to pay for no matter what lifestyle you choose but some persons have more persecution than others. In my opinion you reflect that in your rhetoric.

However, please do not assume that will be the case when you discuss your different views with all Christians. Most of us are truth seekers just like you; but, it is also difficult for us at times to put our prejudices aside long enough to see what is really in another person's heart. So, here is what the GadFly purposes and tries to do:
1) Let's not take this thread or forum too seriously; it's not war; it's not life and death; you can't touch me or I you; let's have fun.
2) If we are going to put so much effort into this forum, let us learn something and maybe soften our positions a little; if there is a God out there, the only way to find him is to open our eyes; if He is not there, there is nothing to lose. You don't even have to admit you looked.
3) Let us treat each other with great dignity and respect as we bash each others head. Who knows, in the end we may become great friends.
You said an apology would help you. Here it is. I am sorry to have offended you and if I can answer any question you have about religion without damaging your feelings, I pledge to do my best. I promise to respond to the issues above soon but for now, I am just too sorry to try to bite.:sorry1(
God bless
GadFly.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

***MOD ADVISORY***

Please stay on topic and refrain from personal comments. Some off-topic remarks have been removed.

Thanks,
A_E

 

[GadFly]

Are you sure? Maybe an outside perspective is the best one. Well yeah, something wrong with that? No big secret. This is a forum for everyone to share their opinions, including atheists. Now this is where you go wrong. I'm not trying to cause confusion, and why would atheists have a special desire to do that. In general, we tend to be people who value reason, and who are trying to cause clarity, not confusion. My goal is to spark discussion so as to lead to greater understanding, not confusion.

Please withdraw this vicious slander immediately. Obviously, I am not more representing the Devil's position than Yahweh's; I don't think either of them exists. Is it your practice to invent vicious lies about other people? I most certainly do not. My point of view is that the Devil does not exist. You seem to be locked into a primitive myth-system in which there are only two categories, God and Devil, and this prevents you from seeing anything out side those two categories. I will try to excuse your slander, but an apology would make it easier to forgive you. My mistake. I thought this was a forum to discuss and debate issues, not my personal life. I thought that even Christians were capable of focusing on the questions, and not on their erroneous judgmental condemnation of someone else's love life. Apparently you disagree? Or maybe it's only you, GadFly, who cannot argue without resorting to the fallacy ad hominim? (ad feminem?)
Read the first post. How did I approach you in that way? Did I call you names? Did I call you stupid? Seems like you're the only calling names, here, GadFly, approaching me as if I'm a pawn of a mythological creature. All that I did was to raise questions that you are finding difficult to answer. If anything, I am crediting you with quite a lot of intelligence. And here I thought that GadFlys liked difficult questions. Maybe not when they're directed at the GadFly? Some of you do; some don't. If you disagree with any of my reasoning, please respond and show how it is erreneous. If not, then it stands. Well, if you advocate infanticide, what does that make you? It's not a tactic, it's the truth, isn't it?

In general, we tend to be people who value reason, and who are trying to cause clarity, not confusion. My goal is to spark discussion so as to lead to greater understanding, not confusion.

I have seen some of this type of honesty from atheist in this and other forums. Although I really think that among atheist, it is rather split 90% to 10% in that some (10%) have such a agenda as you describe. Very few atheist, in my opinion, have a 100% agenda to seek the truth only. As a general rule when an atheist tells me that is their only agenda, I don't believe them no more than I would believe a communist atheist that would tell me they were doing what was best for society. Than, I am a Christian and American. Before you criticize this statement, the statistics on honesty is not any better for believers. No special group seems to have cornered the market on honesty.

Please withdraw this vicious slander immediately.

Come on now. Don't be too dramatical on us. The last time I witnessed this type of lawyer rhetoric, the lawyer was calling me an SOB while stealing $85.000 from me.
Christians have to account for good and evil. That is their theological position to say the Devil uses people and especially everybody thinks that about lawyers; even lawyers joke about other lawyers. That statement about the Devil no more hurt your feelings than the man in the moon. It is a well designed tactic to change the jury's opinion of you opponent. It will not help is this debate. Nobody likes flies anyway.

Or maybe it's only you, GadFly, who cannot argue without resorting to the fallacy ad hominim? (ad feminem?)

I strongly disagree with this. There is no way I swallowed her chewing gum while kissing her. Don't ever bring that up again.

If you disagree with any of my reasoning, please respond and show how it is erreneous. If not, then it stands. Well, if you advocate infanticide, what does that make you? It's not a tactic, it's the truth, isn't it?

I could have overlooked this last closing statement of yours but it was too funny. You did mean it as a joke, didn't you? How could I disagree with your reasoning? Next your reasoning leads to me practicing infanticide. Now why would I be offended by being called such a name like that from a person that does not call names. Good reasoning. You know why you are so wrong? It's because in Kentucky we don't even use fertilizer on our crops. So, you can keep all the infanticide for yourself. Are you having fun yet?
GadFly

 

[uss_bigd]

I could have overlooked this last closing statement of yours but it was too funny. You did mean it as a joke, didn't you? How could I disagree with your reasoning? Next your reasoning leads to me practicing infanticide. Now why would I be offended by being called such a name like that from a person that does not call names. Good reasoning. You know why you are so wrong? It's because in Kentucky we don't even use fertilizer on our crops. So, you can keep all the infanticide for yourself. Are you having fun yet?
GadFly

hahahahhahahahahahahhahhaha! that was good one Gadfly ...

 

[idea]

What we know about the Midianites - just cut-n-paste

Midianites. A powerful confederation of wandering Arab tribes, akin to the Hebrews, but often in conflict with them. They are referred to in Gen. 37:28, 36; Ex. 2:15; 3:1; 4:19; 18:1; Num. 22:4, 7; 25; 31; Judg. 6; 7; 8; Ps. 83:9, 11; Isa. 9:4; 10:26. See also Jethro.

28 Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.

36 And the Midianites sold him into Egypt unto Potiphar, an officer of Pharaoh's, and captain of the guard.

15 Now when Pharaoh heard this thing, he sought to slay Moses. But Moses fled from the face of Pharaoh, and dwelt in the land of Midian: and he sat down by a well.

1 NOW Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

19 And the LORD said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life.

1 WHEN Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses' father in law, heard of all that God had done for Moses, and for Israel his people, and that the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt;
2 Then Jethro, Moses' father in law, took Zipporah, Moses' wife, after he had sent her back,
3 And her two sons; of which the name of the one was Gershom; for he said, I have been an alien in a strange land:

some problems start…

Num CHAPTER 22​

Balak offers money and cattle and great honors to Balaam to curse Israel—The Lord forbids Balaam so to do—An angel opposes Balaam on the way.

1 AND the children of Israel set forward, and pitched in the plains of Moab bon this side Jordan by Jericho.
2 And Balak the son of Zippor saw all that Israel had done to the Amorites.
3 And Moab was sore afraid of the people, because they were many: and Moab was distressed because of the children of Israel.
4 And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this company lick up all that are round about us, as the ox licketh up the grass of the field. And Balak the son of Zippor was king of the Moabites at that time.
5 He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
6 Come now therefore, I pray thee, curse me this people; for they are too mighty for me: peradventure I shall prevail, that we may smite them, and that I may drive them out of the land: for I wot that he whom thou blessest is blessed, and he whom thou cursest is cursed.
7 And the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed with the rewards of divination in their hand; and they came unto Balaam, and spake unto him the words of Balak.

Num CHAPTER 25​

Israelites who worship false gods are slain—Phinehas slays adulterers and stays plague—Israel commanded to vex the Midianites who had beguiled them.

Judges CHAPTER 6​

Israel is in bondage to Midianites—An angel appears to Gideon and calls him to deliver Israel—He overthrows altar of Baal, the Spirit of the Lord rests upon him, and the Lord gives him a sign to show he is called to deliver Israel.

Judges CHAPTER 7​

Gideon's army is reduced to 300—They frighten Midianite armies with trumpets and lights—Midianites fight among themselves, flee, and are defeated by Israel.

Judges CHAPTER 8​

Gideon pursues and destroys Midianites—He frees Israel but refuses their invitation to reign as king over them—Gideon dies and Israel returns to idolatry.

9 Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison:

Isaiah 4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.

26 And the LORD of hosts shall stir up a scourge for him according to the slaughter of Midian at the rock of Oreb: and as his rod was upon the sea, so shall he lift it up after the manner of Egypt.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Death is not the end, God was preserving His people.

 

[GadFly]

Very Good. That should clear up a lot of things. It is right there to be read. Thank you.
GadFly

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Welcome to the land of the wierd.

 

[Autodidact]

In general, we tend to be people who value reason, and who are trying to cause clarity, not confusion. My goal is to spark discussion so as to lead to greater understanding, not confusion.

I have seen some of this type of honesty from atheist in this and other forums. Although I really think that among atheist, it is rather split 90% to 10% in that some (10%) have such a agenda as you describe. Very few atheist, in my opinion, have a 100% agenda to seek the truth only. As a general rule when an atheist tells me that is their only agenda, I don't believe them no more than I would believe a communist atheist that would tell me they were doing what was best for society. Than, I am a Christian and American. Before you criticize this statement, the statistics on honesty is not any better for believers. No special group seems to have cornered the market on honesty.

Nor did I claim to do so. All that I said is that my goal is clarity, not confusion. I believe, as to do the founders of this forum, that open discussion and debate regarding religious issues are beneficial. If you don't, then why come here?

Please withdraw this vicious slander immediately.

Come on now. Don't be too dramatical on us. The last time I witnessed this type of lawyer rhetoric, the lawyer was calling me an SOB while stealing $85.000 from me.
Christians have to account for good and evil. That is their theological position to say the Devil uses people and especially everybody thinks that about lawyers; even lawyers joke about other lawyers. That statement about the Devil no more hurt your feelings than the man in the moon. It is a well designed tactic to change the jury's opinion of you opponent. It will not help is this debate. Nobody likes flies anyway.

So I take it that you stand by your lie then? You want to continue to assert that I am advocating for a being in whose existence I don't believe? (btw, it's not about my feelings, it's about the facts. I value the truth. You?) And further, that it's because you are a Christian that you lie and refuse to withdraw your lies? Interesting position.

Or maybe it's only you, GadFly, who cannot argue without resorting to the fallacy ad hominim? (ad feminem?)

I strongly disagree with this. There is no way I swallowed her chewing gum while kissing her. Don't ever bring that up again.

Then, just for a refreshing change of pace, how about addressing the issues instead of my motivations, O.K.?

If you disagree with any of my reasoning, please respond and show how it is erreneous. If not, then it stands. Well, if you advocate infanticide, what does that make you? It's not a tactic, it's the truth, isn't it?

I could have overlooked this last closing statement of yours but it was too funny. You did mean it as a joke, didn't you? How could I disagree with your reasoning? Next your reasoning leads to me practicing infanticide. Now why would I be offended by being called such a name like that from a person that does not call names. Good reasoning. You know why you are so wrong? It's because in Kentucky we don't even use fertilizer on our crops. So, you can keep all the infanticide for yourself. Are you having fun yet?
GadFly

[/QUOTE] I fail to see the humor. Can we get back to the issues? Do you advocate infanticide, or don't you? If not, then what do you make of God commanding his followers to commit it? If so, what do you think that makes you?

 

[Autodidact]

Thank you, idea, now assuming that we have the full context, which should help anyone who wants to draw on it, can we now turn from a fascinating analysis of my motivations and back to the substance of the discussion? My motivations are the same as yours: to represent and advocate for my position in an open discussion that uses reason, courtesy, logic and evidence.

As I recall before this annoying de-rail, Scott thought that this passage condemned the actions described. Sola thinks they tell us that God rewards those who follow his commandments and are faithful to him. I basically agree with this and will expand in a separate post.I think Ratiocinative thinks these killings were justified by the actions of previous generations of Midianites. GadFly thinks these verses serve as a warning to all who fail to follow God, that they should and will be killed, just like the Midianites. IIRC, a couple of other Christians agreed with GadFly. Did I state everyone's positions correctly? Can we now proceed to actually discuss them?

btw, is there anyone here who wants to argue that stabbing babies to death with swords is morally good or permissible in any situation?

 

[McBell]

btw, is there anyone here who wants to argue that stabbing babies to death with swords is morally good or permissible in any situation?

Yes, Me.
When God says to do something, regardless of how rediculous, immoral, unethical, wrong, evil, bad, negative, etc. we mere mortal men think it is, it is by very nature of God moral.
Because God cannot commit evil, immoral, unethical, bad, wrong, negative, etc. actions.

So in a nutshell, if God says to do it or if God does do it, or if God commands it be done, it is perfect and moral and good and positive and ethical etc.