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[IndigoChild5559]

In Alexandria, Aleppo, Damascus, Persia and Elephantine Island?

Your point is taken that I am overgeneralizing. However, the typical Jew in second temple diaspora was not the scholar in Babylon or Alexandria. They were Greek speaking Hellenized Jews.

 

[sooda]

Your point is taken that I am overgeneralizing. However, the typical Jew in second temple diaspora was not the scholar in Babylon or Alexandria. They were Greek speaking Hellenized Jews.

Isn't that too early for the Jews to have been Hellenized?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Isn't that too early for the Jews to have been Hellenized?

What years do you think we are talking about? The whole Roman empire is hellenized. These are Jews that are already in diaspora BEFORE the Jewish Roman wars.

 

[sooda]

What years do you think we are talking about? The whole Roman empire is hellenized. These are Jews that are already in diaspora BEFORE the Jewish Roman wars.

Oh I know.. The Diaspora was in full swing from 500 BC on..

But, Alexander the Great didn't conquer Palestine until 330 BC ... and I am thinking the Decapolis cities didn't exist before 200 BC.

 

[Prim969]

I'm so pleased that you are considering looking into the Stone Edition Tanakh. You can always order it online at Artscroll.com and many other places online.

I would argue that Paul was a hellenized Jew. He was born outside of Judea, aka Saul of Tarsus.

The Tanakh is simply the Hebrew manuscripts of the canon of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. The Masoretic manuscript is one example of a Tanakh manuscript copied and edited during the 7th to 10th centuries CE.

As I said in my previous post, the theory is that with the exception of the Torah (the first five books) the Septuagint was NOT translated "hundreds of years prior to christian influence" but was indeed translated by Christians, directly influenced by their theology, in some cases mistranslated for reasons of theology.

Israel always went back and forth, having good kings and bad kings, times of obedience and times of unfaithfulness, you will get no argument from me. However, the prophets were very clear that while unfaithfulness would bring discipline, God would restore Israel, things would be better than ever, the wolf would lie down with the lamb, etc. There has never , ever been a time where God has rejected Israel. Ever.

I know you are sincere in your beliefs, but you have to understand that to me, it is just so ridiculous to read in the Tanakh that God has made an everlasting covenant with Israel, and then to turn around and say that God has abrogated that covenant. You just can't have it both ways without God being some kind of liar. I think both you and I agree that God is not a liar.

Indigochild yes I did find. So very big and so very thick I do like very much. And it is hardback with a most splendid cover as well, having over 2000 pages, that’s more than the old and the new put together so there must be much commentary in the Taneka as well. And the price is very fair as well I shall order soon. As to Paul being a hellenised Jew he certainly was. But not a apostate Jew to begin with by Jewish standards. No that reputation was given to him later after a deep and meaningful one on one discussion with Jesus on the road to Damascus : ) Actually many Jews still lived in other lands from the ist dispora and they were always most welcome when they returned to Jerusalem to partake in the temple rituals and celebrations of the Jewish ones. As to Paul being influenced by Hellenistic thought as some of the Jewish people were. Well I’m sure he certainly enjoyed reading the many works of Socrates, Aristotle and Plato to broaden his horizons. You know like ( Beauty is in the eye of Beholder ) and all those other gems of wisdom. But did Paul seek after their gods. No he remained true to his Jewish Faith A true Pharisee and a true believer iwho believed in the Israel of God, the God the of living and not of the dead. I mean was it Paul that greeted Alexander the Great with open arms all those centuries ago nearly knocking off his horse with the book of Daniel: Here you do read this. Even if I think it was very diplomatically well done : ) you say I can’t have it both ways. But I surly can and I surely do. For the seed of Israel is a spiritual one and that is the true Israel of God, Be that past, present and future. Indigochild I absolutely agree you that God does never lie. And that’s like a breathe of fresh air around here. I’m really glad to hear. Yours Prim

 

[sooda]

View attachment 37295
Indigochild yes I did find. So very big and so very thick I do like very much. And it is hardback with with a most splendid cover as well, having over 2000 pages that’s more than the old and the new put together so there must be much commentary in the Taneka as well. And the price is very fair as well I shall order soon. As to Paul being a hellenised Jew he certainly was: but not a apostate Jew to begin with by Jewish standards that reputation was given to him later after a deep and meaningful one on one discussion with Jesus on the road to Damascus : ) actually many Jews still lived in many lands from the ist dispora and they were always most welcome when they returned to Jerusalem to partake in the temple rituals and celebrations of the Jewish ones. As to Paul being influenced by Hellenistic thought as some of the Jewish people were. Well I’m sure he certainly enjoyed reading the many works of Socrates, Aristotle and Plato to broaden his horizons. You know ( Beauty is in the eye of Beholder ) and all those gems of wisdom. But did Paul seek after their gods. No he remained true to his Jewish Faith A true Pharisee and a true believer in who believed in the God of Israel, the God the of living and not of the dead. I mean was it Paul that greeted Alexander the Great with open arms all those centuries ago nearly knocking off his horse with the book of Daniel: Here you do read this. Even if I think it was very diplomatically well done : ) you say I can’t have it both ways. But I surly can and I surely do. For the seed of Israel is a spiritual one and that is the true Israel of God, Be that past, present and future. Indigochild I absolutely agree you that God does never lie. And that’s like a breathe of fresh air around here. I’m really glad to hear. Yours Prim

Paul wasn't around for Alexander the Great.

 

[Prim969]

Paul wasn't around for Alexander the Great.

That’s right read my post a little deeper. Was it Paul that greeted Alexander the Great with open arms.

 

[sooda]

That’s right read my post a little deeper. Was it Paul that greeted Alexander the Great with open arms.

Paul wasn't around in167 BC when Daniel wrote about Antiochus IV Epiphanes either.

 

[Prim969]

Snoda the apostle Paul wasn’t born until very close to the beginning of the common era. I can’t remember Daniel writing so late .Your talking about Antiochus who perished the same year in the jewish revolt against the Greeks in 167 BC. Daniel wrote around the 6th century BC Ezekiel also mentions Daniel in Ezekiel 14:14 he was also a writer from the 6th century BC period who came to Babylon a little latter than Daniel.. And what of the Prophecy of Daniel that Alexander the Great had read to him in 322BC

 

[sooda]

Snoda the apostle Paul wasn’t born until very close to the beginning of the common era. I can’t remember Daniel writing so late .Your talking about Antiochus who perished the same year in the jewish revolt against the Greeks in 167 BC. Daniel wrote around the 6th century BC Ezekiel also mentions Daniel in Ezekiel 14:14 he was also a writer from the 6th century BC period who came to Babylon a little latter than Daniel.. And what of the Prophecy of Daniel that Alexander the Great had read to him in 322BC

I know he mentions Ezekiel but he didn't write the book of Daniel until the Maccabean Revolt.

The book is history not prophecy... that's why Daniel is not a prophet in Judaism.

 

[Harel13]

that's why Daniel is not a prophet in Judaism.

That's not the reason.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Oh I know.. The Diaspora was in full swing from 500 BC on..

But, Alexander the Great didn't conquer Palestine until 330 BC ... and I am thinking the Decapolis cities didn't exist before 200 BC.

And we are talking about the period of time when Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity were forming, which began about 250 years or so later.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

View attachment 37295
Indigochild yes I did find. So very big and so very thick I do like very much. And it is hardback with a most splendid cover as well, having over 2000 pages, that’s more than the old and the new put together so there must be much commentary in the Taneka as well. And the price is very fair as well I shall order soon. As to Paul being a hellenised Jew he certainly was. But not a apostate Jew to begin with by Jewish standards. No that reputation was given to him later after a deep and meaningful one on one discussion with Jesus on the road to Damascus : ) Actually many Jews still lived in other lands from the ist dispora and they were always most welcome when they returned to Jerusalem to partake in the temple rituals and celebrations of the Jewish ones. As to Paul being influenced by Hellenistic thought as some of the Jewish people were. Well I’m sure he certainly enjoyed reading the many works of Socrates, Aristotle and Plato to broaden his horizons. You know like ( Beauty is in the eye of Beholder ) and all those other gems of wisdom. But did Paul seek after their gods. No he remained true to his Jewish Faith A true Pharisee and a true believer iwho believed in the Israel of God, the God the of living and not of the dead. I mean was it Paul that greeted Alexander the Great with open arms all those centuries ago nearly knocking off his horse with the book of Daniel: Here you do read this. Even if I think it was very diplomatically well done : ) you say I can’t have it both ways. But I surly can and I surely do. For the seed of Israel is a spiritual one and that is the true Israel of God, Be that past, present and future. Indigochild I absolutely agree you that God does never lie. And that’s like a breathe of fresh air around here. I’m really glad to hear. Yours Prim

Well you can see both influences in Paul. On the one hand, in Paul's writings, he quotes pagan sources.

But then he goes and claims to be a Pharisee and even a student of Gamaliel's.

If you look at his actions, how he acted as a temple guard to persecute Christians on behalf of the Saducees, that's a third different direction.

 

[Prim969]

I know he mentions Ezekiel but he didn't write the book of Daniel until the Maccabean Revolt.

The book is history not prophecy... that's why Daniel is not a prophet in Judaism.

It be the Ezekiel that speaks of Daniel, Noah and Job and not Daniel that makes the quote. As mentioned in my previous post. Daniel and Ezekiel were the 6th century BC people not the 167BC people : ) And what of the reading of Daniel given to Alexander in 322 BC seems to me that the book of Daniel had been around for quite a awhile.. As to the book of Daniel only being historical and not prophetic. Sooda I think the book has always been read as prophetic and not only as history.

 

[Prim969]

Well you can see both influences in Paul. On the one hand, in Paul's writings, he quotes pagan sources.

But then he goes and claims to be a Pharisee and even a student of Gamaliel's.

If you look at his actions, how he acted as a temple guard to persecute Christians on behalf of the Saducees, that's a third different direction.

Indigochild do we not read books and study source materials from many varying beliefs. Do we not come into contact with many different cultures of the world as well. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we change our beliefs but sometimes we do. As to the Apostle Paul he makes no apologies for his Pharisee status and makes that’s clear when he perceives the Sadducees at his trial Acts 23:6.. The Pharisees and Sadducee’s were never on good terms at the best of times anyway. The Sadducee’s never believed in the a afterlife. So I’m not sure why would you prefer Paul to be doing the Sadducee’s bidding especially when he was clearly a Pharisee and why would you not believe that he was once a student of Gamaliel. Indigochild yes Paul does often quote pagan sources and why wouldn’t he do so with himself now being a ambassador for Jesus Christ unto the entire world testifying about the newly founded Christian Faith that he himself was once a enemy of. We can see one of those examples of Paul doing this whilst in Greece observing the many gods in Athens. Using the alter of the unknown God which the Greeks did pay homage to as well. I guess they did very much like to have all gods covered. I dare say for a rainy day. And what does Paul do with the alter to the unknown God of the Greek one’s . He uses it to point them to the one true God in Acts 17:23. Or Acts 17:61-34 for a more fuller reading. And it’s another reason why we know that Paul like many others though hellenised by conquest were not following after their gods though there were others that were doing exactly that . The temptations and pleasures of the dark side are never too far away from any of us I guess.

 

[sooda]

It be the Ezekiel that speaks of Daniel, Noah and Job and not Daniel that makes the quote. As mentioned in my previous post. Daniel and Ezekiel were the 6th century BC people not the 167BC people : ) And what of the reading of Daniel given to Alexander in 322 BC seems to me that the book of Daniel had been around for quite a awhile.. As to the book of Daniel only being historical and not prophetic. Sooda I think the book has always been read as prophetic and not only as history.

Either this is an instance where the scripture was redacted and amended or Ezekiel is writing about Danel from the Ugaritic texts.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

From (The Scofield Study Bible, Editor C.I. Scofield, Oxford, 2003, p. 1112)

"Daniel was written in 6th century B.C.

The book of Daniel,like Revelation in the New Testament, is called an apocalypse,as are also Isaiah 24-27 (the Isaiah Apocalypse), and the visions in Zechariah. 'Apoccalypse' means unveiling. When wickedness seemed supreme in the world, and evil powers were dominant, an apocalypse was given to show the real situation behind that which was apparent, and to indicate the eventual victory of righteousness upon the earth. Apocalyptic writing uses many figures and symbols. God used this literary form to convey His truth to His people.

The author of this book, Daniel,whose name means God is my judge, was taken in his youth to Babylon in the first deportation under Nebuchanezzar. He soon excelled in wisdom in this land famous for its wise men, and ultimately rose to become first among the three highest officers of the Medo-Persian Empire (5:29; 6:1-3). His life in Bablon extended to at least 530 B.C.

Daniel is a book of kings and kingdoms, of thrones and dominions. While including a number of historical records, it embodies prophecies of the sequence of kingdoms in 'the times of the Gentiles' (Luke 21:24; see Revelation 16:19, note) and portrays the end of this period. It voices the only prophecy in the Old Testament (9:24-27) that sets the time of Christ's first advent.

The historical events in Daniel, occurring at the beginning of the times of the Gentiles, illustrate events prophetically set forth in the book as taking place at the end of this period and culminating catastrophically in the termination of Gentile world rule at the return of Christ, the Messiah. Thus, the persecution of the children of God in chapters 3 and 6 foreshadows the more severe and universal persecution of God's people to take place at the end of this age (7:25; 8:24; 12:1);likewise, the blasphemous repudiation of the God of Israel, as in 5:1-4; 6:5-12, will appear in a more universal form and even greater intensity at the end of the age (7:25; 9:26; 11:37,38).

This book is referred to or quoted many times in the New Testament (compare especially our Lord's reference to Daniel in Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14) and is the key to Revelation. It exercised a great influlence upon the early church; its scheme of four successive empires dominated European historiography until the middle of the eighteenth century. "

From C.I. Scofield

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[sooda]

From (The Scofield Study Bible, Editor C.I. Scofield, Oxford, 2003, p. 1112)

"Daniel was written in 6th century B.C.

The book of Daniel,like Revelation in the New Testament, is called an apocalypse,as are also Isaiah 24-27 (the Isaiah Apocalypse), and the visions in Zechariah. 'Apoccalypse' means unveiling. When wickedness seemed supreme in the world, and evil powers were dominant, an apocalypse was given to show the real situation behind that which was apparent, and to indicate the eventual victory of righteousness upon the earth. Apocalyptic writing uses many figures and symbols. God used this literary form to convey His truth to His people.

The author of this book, Daniel,whose name means God is my judge, was taken in his youth to Babylon in the first deportation under Nebuchanezzar. He soon excelled in wisdom in this land famous for its wise men, and ultimately rose to become first among the three highest officers of the Medo-Persian Empire (5:29; 6:1-3). His life in Bablon extended to at least 530 B.C.

Daniel is a book of kings and kingdoms, of thrones and dominions. While including a number of historical records, it embodies prophecies of the sequence of kingdoms in 'the times of the Gentiles' (Luke 21:24; see Revelation 16:19, note) and portrays the end of this period. It voices the only prophecy in the Old Testament (9:24-27) that sets the time of Christ's first advent.

The historical events in Daniel, occurring at the beginning of the times of the Gentiles, illustrate events prophetically set forth in the book as taking place at the end of this period and culminating catastrophically in the termination of Gentile world rule at the return of Christ, the Messiah. Thus, the persecution of the children of God in chapters 3 and 6 foreshadows the more severe and universal persecution of God's people to take place at the end of this age (7:25; 8:24; 12:1);likewise, the blasphemous repudiation of the God of Israel, as in 5:1-4; 6:5-12, will appear in a more universal form and even greater intensity at the end of the age (7:25; 9:26; 11:37,38).

This book is referred to or quoted many times in the New Testament (compare especially our Lord's reference to Daniel in Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14) and is the key to Revelation. It exercised a great influlence upon the early church; its scheme of fours successive empires dominated European historiography until the middle of the eighteenth century. "

From C.I. Scofield

Good-Ole-Rebel

Scofield has poisoned a lot of evangelicals and fundamentalists to include SDA and Baptists.

Daniel was written in 167 BC during the persecutions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes and his defilement of the Temple with the Abomination of Desolation.. That's why Jesus referred to it as past tense.

 

[Prim969]

Either this is an instance where the scripture was redacted and amended or Ezekiel is writing about Danel from the Ugaritic texts.

Sooda the Ugaritic texts were certainly a wonderful discovery very similar to ancient Hebrew which has helped scholars very much with linguistics along with other wonderful discoveries such as the epic story of Gilgamesh and the flood. They do date back past 1200 BC I’m not sure what you are referring to about Daniel in those texts As to Ezekiel being redacted that’s usually a single document produced from many other documents and clauses such as law and agreements to give all parties a outline and overall veiw of what’s on the table. Ezekiel is rather large nearly 70 pages being some 48 chapters. .

 

[sooda]

Sooda the Ugaritic texts were certainly a wonderful discovery very similar to ancient Hebrew which has helped scholars very much with linguistics along with other wonderful discoveries such as the epic story of Gilgamesh and the flood. They do date back past 1200 BC I’m not sure what you are referring to about Daniel in those texts As to Ezekiel being redacted that’s usually a single document produced from many other documents and clauses such as law and agreements to give all parties a outline and overall veiw of what’s on the table. Ezekiel is rather large nearly 70 pages being some 48 chapters. .

Danel is a character in the Ugaritic texts.

Danel | West Semitic mythological figure | Britannica
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Danel
Other articles where Danel is discussed: Aqhat Epic: The epic records that Danel, a sage and king of the Haranamites, had no son until the god El, in response to Danel’s many prayers and offerings, finally granted him a child, whom Danel named Aqhat. Some time later Danel offered hospitality to the divine craftsman Kothar, who in…