Biblical coersion

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes, God gave the freedom to reject Him, and freedom to turn back to Him. Obviously rejecting God is not good for well being, because people were originally with God, not separated from God.

I don't see why that option of rejection is needed. It doesn't give the person an alternative good option for his or her well-being, thereby coercing him or her to choose an option that he has to consider it is for his own benefit. If there were more choices, that would leave the person to choose something positive for his or her well-being. It's no longer coercion but a love for the person to make his or her own decisions even If it doesn't align with the one who gave those choices.

 

[1213]

I don't see why that option of rejection is needed. It doesn't give the person an alternative good option for his or her well-being...

I wouldn’t say it is needed, I think it is good and loving to give freedom, unlike world leaders would want to do.

I think it would be wrong to force people to choose good. And if people would be forced to choose good, would it really be good? If something is good, people choose it freely. And if people don’t like it, it would be painful to force them to accept it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I wouldn’t say it is needed, I think it is good and loving to give freedom, unlike world leaders would want to do.

I think it would be wrong to force people to choose good. And if people would be forced to choose good, would it really be good? If something is good, people choose it freely. And if people don’t like it, it would be painful to force them to accept it.

It there were good alternatives that doesn't include god, that would make sense. However, there isn't. It's saying your mother will no longer provide for you if you "decide" that you don't love her and/or never had.

What mother would do that; and, how is it love?

 

[1213]

... It's saying your mother will no longer provide for you if you "decide" that you don't love her and/or never had.

What mother would do that; and, how is it love?

Perhaps that is why it is said:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Perhaps that is why it is said:

But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat. 5:44-45

I see. This doesn't answer my question though.

If a person does not love god, there should be no consequences for this decision. Free will should have no strings attached.

Who are the enemies?

Is it those who do not love god or "reject" god?

It's alright to love these enemies, but it isn't love insofar that you may support god's decision by the consequence of his rejection. When you love someone, there are no strings attached.

What mother would not provide anything for her child if her child does not or never loved her?

In this question, there are no enemies.

That, and not all children choose not to love their parents. Sometimes its upbringing and things that go on that make them loose trust in their caretakers.

 

[1213]

I see. This doesn't answer my question though.

If a person does not love god, there should be no consequences for this decision. Free will should have no strings attached....

I don’t think there is. But, every action still has consequence. If you would for example choose freely to put your hand on fire, it would burn. If you choose to reject God, why would you expect God to save you?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

I think it is about love, not coercion. Real love, true love must involve free will and free choice. God desires people to freely choose His love and goodness. The other thing to consider is that the reality presented in the biblical scriptures is that humans are not autonomous nor self-sustaining. That means that we are totally dependent on God for life and existence. It is not something we are capable of providing or sustaining in and of ourselves. So when a person rejects God, they reject not only His love, but the Source of life itself. Therefore, that is the choice life or death, eternal life with God or separation forever.

Oh yes that's love. You better love me or I will eternally torment you. It sounds no different from when someone holds a gun to person and tells them if they don't have sex the person holding the gun will shoot them.

 

[InChrist]

Oh yes that's love. You better love me or I will eternally torment you. It sounds no different from when someone holds a gun to person and tells them if they don't have sex the person holding the gun will shoot them.

It’s not like that at all. The scriptures are clear that God desires all and has provided a way for everyone to have an eternal life of love, joy, beauty, creativity, peace and free of pain or sadness.
The problem arises when one rejects God’s love and goodness the only alternative is misery... self- induced misery because God is the ONLY Source of love and goodness. Humans were created to exist in loving joyful relationships with their Creator for eternity. Rejection and separation from God simply cannot bring satisfaction and it will result in agony to be separated from the Source of life and all that is good.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

It’s not like that at all. The scriptures are clear that God desires all and has provided a way for everyone to have an eternal life of love, joy, beauty, creativity, peace and free of pain or sadness.
The problem arises when one rejects God’s love and goodness the only alternative is misery... self- induced misery because God is the ONLY Source of love and goodness. Humans were created to exist in loving joyful relationships with their Creator for eternity. Rejection and separation from God simply cannot bring satisfaction and it will result in agony to be separated from the Source of life and all that is good.

Utter nonsense you can't call it love when there's threat of violence.

 

[InChrist]

Utter nonsense you can't call it love when there's threat of violence.

Not nonsense and I do call it love because the scriptures give important information and warnings intended for protection and our good.
There is no threat of violence.
There is warning of DANGER.

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

Not nonsense and I do call it love because the scriptures give important information and warnings intended for protection and our good.
There is no threat of violence.
There is warning of DANGER.

Ether you love god or he eternally torments. It's an ultimatum implied with a threat of violence, If God was a real person you would call him an abusive jerk.

But no continue to make excuses for you abusive God where everyone can see this abusive relationship.

 

[InChrist]

Ether you love god or he eternally torments. It's an ultimatum implied with a threat of violence, If God was a real person you would call him an abusive jerk.

But no continue to make excuses for you abusive God where everyone can see this abusive relationship.

You don’t have to educate me about abusive relationships or people. I have had personal experience with a physical and emotional abuser... and escaped that situation to real freedom. God the Creator of heaven and earth whose very Nature is love, holiness, righteousness and justice is in no way abusive.

I suppose if you came upon a sign which said “Danger Bridge Washed Out!- Do Not Attempt to Drive Across Creek”, you would consider it an abusive ultimatum. If you disregarded the warning and proceeded to cross through the rushing torrent, bringing catastrophic harm or maybe death to yourself, from your perspective would the authority who installed the sign is at fault and abusive?

Or if a judge in a courtroom sentences a child molester to prison and the other inmates beat him up everyday, is it the judge who is responsible?

If God is offering forgiveness and the free gift of a pardon to everyone from the penalty of their sins, and eternal life... who is responsible if that gift is refused?

 

[TheBannerofHomuraAkemi]

You don’t have to educate me about abusive relationships or people. I have had personal experience with a physical and emotional abuser... and escaped that situation to real freedom. God the Creator of heaven and earth whose very Nature is love, holiness, righteousness and justice is in no way abusive.

I suppose if you came upon a sign which said “Danger Bridge Washed Out!- Do Not Attempt to Drive Across Creek”, you would consider it an abusive ultimatum. If you disregarded the warning and proceeded to cross through the rushing torrent, bringing catastrophic harm or maybe death to yourself, from your perspective would the authority who installed the sign is at fault and abusive?

Or if a judge in a courtroom sentences a child molester to prison and the other inmates beat him up everyday, is it the judge who is responsible?

If God is offering forgiveness and the free gift of a pardon to everyone from the penalty of their sins, and eternal life... who is responsible if that gift is refused?

Your analogy doesn't fit the situation. It would be more akin to say the bridge is destroyed. God want you to fix the bridge and cross it, but you don't know how to fix bridges and the instructions he leaves is vague and often contradicts itself. If you don't do what he says he promises to kill you or send someone else to slice your children apart and rape your wife(Isaiah 13:16)

And your absurd prison analogy is wrong as well. God created the concept of sin. God created the place of Hell. God decides who does and doesn't got to hell. God sends people to hell. You ether love and worship the monster that is the god of the Christian faith or he utter torments you forever. But you know if this god was actually loving creature he could go and say. "Bob I'm disappointed in you, You didn't believe in me. But that's okay It's not like I sent you undeniable evidence of my existence or anything. So you get to go to moderate Heaven. There's no ice cream, but only popsicles." But instead he chooses the most inhumane option. Torturing them forever.

 

[InChrist]

Your analogy doesn't fit the situation. It would be more akin to say the bridge is destroyed. God want you to fix the bridge and cross it, but you don't know how to fix bridges and the instructions he leaves is vague and often contradicts itself. If you don't do what he says he promises to kill you or send someone else to slice your children apart and rape your wife(Isaiah 13:16)

And your absurd prison analogy is wrong as well. God created the concept of sin. God created the place of Hell. God decides who does and doesn't got to hell. God sends people to hell. You ether love and worship the monster that is the god of the Christian faith or he utter torments you forever. But you know if this god was actually loving creature he could go and say. "Bob I'm disappointed in you, You didn't believe in me. But that's okay It's not like I sent you undeniable evidence of my existence or anything. So you get to go to moderate Heaven. There's no ice cream, but only popsicles." But instead he chooses the most inhumane option. Torturing them forever.

What is it that you find so vague and difficult to understand? The gospel message in the Bible is simple and straightforward enough that a child may grasp it. All people sin, Jesus Christ paid for all the sins of the world, He conquered death and offers forgiveness, freedom from sin and eternal life. He is the bridge between humans and God. It’s not that complicated.
You can accuse God all you like of being a monster, but you do so against the scriptures and I think against truth & reality. The fact is you or any created being is not autonomous or self- existent. We cannot sustain our own life even now and certainly not for eternity. The torment will be the...
“state of separation” from the only source of life, love, joy, and beauty. God created you for an abundant, beautiful eternal life with Himself. If you don’t want it, that’s your choice.

For years as long as I can remember, I used to periodically have dreams of falling, falling down a long tunnel into complete darkness, all alone. After being saved by Jesus Christ I never had another one of those dreams. I think the reference in the Bible to “outer darkness” is a description of a lonely eternity without God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don’t think there is. But, every action still has consequence. If you would for example choose freely to put your hand on fire, it would burn. If you choose to reject God, why would you expect God to save you?

This is more like someone inviting you to stay over his house. You say no, thank you for the offer. You leave with your own roof over your head, food, and clothing because you had the free will to say no. Then you're told that having your own food/water/clothes is wrong; and, many denominations interpret that perceived consequence as justifiable for punishment.

Both options are positive. Free will (the choice you make for the best of your well-being) should give you the choice between positive options-his house, your house, a friend's house, etc.

It's coercion by definition if the "only" other option is negative.

 

[sojourner]

This is faulty theology born from faulty reading.