IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It's been tweaked. But the evidence that more than one author wrote the Torah remains undisputed.
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Biblical Literary criticism: valid?
- Thread starter an anarchist
- Start date
LeftyLen
Active Member
One book read years ago on this was 'THE BOOK OF J' by Harold Bloom.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I have not read that one, but it seems like a really good read.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
I hate the term "pagan" but I understand what you are saying.
What I find interesting is the concept of a personal God of creation, or Brahma in the Vedas, was a later addition and as I believe a "result of monotheism" rather than the cause. Personally, I believe the ancestors of the Ancient Israelites, or Abraham specifically, was from this "schism" between the belief in a Creator God, symbolizing possessiveness, versus the worship of a Universal God that personified detachment.
The irony being all of Abraham's descendents are the "lost tribe" of Brahma, the Creator God, the worship of whom was shunned by the so called detached Vedic establishment.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I don't think I really understand what you mean by "lost tribe of Brahma." If you are one of those who claim that the Israelites were from India or similar, I really don't want to discuss the idea that every good thing must have its roots in India. Now if that's NOT what you mean, then I'm fine. I would only need you to clarify what you mean. So, exactly what did you mean?
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
I'm saying when the scriptures refer to Abraham being a "foreigner", yes this was in the Indus Valley yes.
I am a firm believer of it, why? Logic and history. When I tried to describe my car crash example to you before, it was to show that Ancient Hebrews existed, they had their own belief system, they "clashed" with another belief system, and then moved away from it. The experience created resolve and further understanding of "denying other Gods" and the belief in the one God.
Why was Abraham in the Indus Valley in the first place? History. You should read about the 4.2kiloyear event and see what was happening around the world, and how a peoples in Mesopotamia could have ended up in the Indus Valley. Perhaps you can understand like I do what the meaning of Peleg and "when the Earth was divided" truly was describing.
See above. History. Relativity.
NOT SUPREMACY. THIS IS REALITY. YOU CANNOT DENY ANOTHER GOD IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE DENYING!
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Okay, then our discussion is over. I'm sorry, but I just don't have conversations with Supremacists of any sort. The fact is, not every good thing comes from India. It is pretty offensive that you want to take credit for something that others did. I'm very sorry you are taken by this notion. Be well.
GoodAttention
Well-Known Member
I think it is clear who the bigot is.
You find comfort in your Babylonian roots, but God-forbid there should be any hint of relations with an Eastern belief system.
All the best to you.
Lisa Sims
Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
Greetings!
The Baal Shem Tov (Israel ben Eliezer), is now a contributor to Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to present. He says he discovered the gift of God's Love (that Jesus taught as the Re-birth in Divinity and Immortality, showing evidence of it in his own person) and taught it to the people of his town primarily through prayer, simple living and dance. It helped them through a tough time in their history as well as fitting them for habitation in the Kingdom of God in the heavens.
Make every day a New One!
"...I am known throughout the Jewish world as the founder of the Hassidic tradition although to some extent it existed before my time. I lived in Eastern Europe and my village, and the surrounding area was very poor. But I also realized that the body seeks out material things and soul seeks spiritual things. So, I encouraged my people to live a simple life, to bring prayer into every moment, and to infuse each life with the Divine. I told them that the purpose of prayer was At-One-Ment with God. And we celebrated, and we sang, and we made a joyful noise unto the Lord and we danced, and we forgot our material poverty as we embraced the riches of the Presence of God and His great love..." 9/26/2022
Let your Prayers go Deep
"...In my time we danced, and we prayed, and we celebrated. We felt the fire, the glow of God’s love, whether in times of poverty or abundance as we had the wealth of the Heavenly Father’s love...What matters is that you have arrived at the doorway to the Kingdom with the keys of prayer, the longings of your souls, to which God responds opening the door of His soul and touching each one of you with Grace. If even for a moment you can be lifted up above your concerns, all the troubles, trials and tribulations of this world in the balm of His love, in the Joy, then you know you are on your Way to a Divine destination..." 1/4/2021
Every Religious Tradition can Receive this Divine Love
"...I was known as Baal Shem Tov and I was a reformer in my community amongst the Hassidic Jews in Eastern Europe. I had experienced the light and love of God through my prayers and I experienced this as being everywhere and accessible to all.
In every action there could be a connection with God and I preached this. At first there was quite a negative reaction - not what I expected. But as we prayed and danced and celebrated more and more experienced this truth I had received and it reached many - into the thousands..." 2/7/2020
Stay Awake in Divine Love
"...For you have sought the essence of the teachings of the Master as the real Sufis did and do, and as the great rabbis Hillel and Baal Shem Tov in the Judaic tradition, as Francis and many others in the Christian tradition, and as Yogananda and (Shirdi) Sai Baba and others in the Hindu tradition. All had found the essence of true religion in God’s love and the souls’ journey of transformation..." George Gurdjieff, Papa G., 7/24/2023
Blessings...
From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Present. soultruth.ca, new-birth.net
John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."
"God is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him”
"God is Love, and Love is something we can pray for”
"God is Love..."
Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...The time grows short and the work is great..." 4/21/2024
1 John 3:9 “...Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God..." John, disciple of Jesus, date unknown.
Luke 13:28-29 "...There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourself are being "cast out" (excluded). And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline in the Kingdom of God..." Jesus, 29 AD
Matthew 26:40 "...Could you not WATCH with me one hour?..." Jesus, 29 AD
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I love the Baal Shem Tov, and your quotes of him were wonderful!
You wrote:
"The Baal Shem Tov (Israel ben Eliezer), is now a contributor to Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to present. He says he discovered the gift of God's Love (that Jesus taught as the Re-birth in Divinity and Immortality, showing evidence of it in his own person) and taught it to the people of his town "
I tried my best to research this claim , looking to find anything he wrote that commented on Jesus and found nothing. Apparently he did not specifically comment on Jesus Christ in a detailed or direct manner.
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Lisa Sims
Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
Thank you for your comments!
Whether the Baal had heard Jesus' message or not, God's Love has been available to all mankind following his bringing the Good News of its re-bestowal (after its withdrawal because of the default of the first parents). Many people around the world would have been able to stumble onto it with soul-longings and a hunger for spiritual food even if they had never heard of Jesus.
Blessings...
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I not here to dis you or your faith in Jesus. I'm fine if you are a Christian.
The one point I would like to make is this: You don't have to be a Christian to believe in and receive God's love. It doesn't make any sense to think that someone like the Baal Shem Tov who has a wonderful relationship with God isn't really their own religion, but somehow supportive of Jesus.
Verses on God's love from the Jewish Tanakh:
- Psalm 136:1
"Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His love endures forever." - Jeremiah 31:3
"The Lord appeared to us in the past, saying: 'I have loved you with an everlasting love; I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.'" - Isaiah 54:10
"'Though the mountains be shaken and the hills be removed, yet my unfailing love for you will not be shaken nor my covenant of peace be removed,' says the Lord, who has compassion on you." - Psalm 63:3
"Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you." - Hosea 11:4
"I led them with cords of human kindness, with ties of love; I lifted the yoke from their neck and bent down to feed them." - Exodus 34:6
"And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, 'The Lord, the Lord, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness.'" - Psalm 103:11
"For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him."
Lisa Sims
Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
Thank you for this.
Most Christians are Christians in name only, and do not understand the message that Jesus brought. He did not want to change Judaism, he loved it.
I love your quotes from the Tanakh about God's Love for us. There are also many quotes in the Tanakh about "seeking" God, and "waiting" upon the Lord (Jesus called it "watching"). The prophets of the Tanakh had developed that kind of rapport with God that enabled them to know His Will, speak His Word, perform miracles, and benefit from His providence and care.
They did not however have the possibility of obtaining His Divine Essence into their souls as did Hillel and the Baal Shem Tov. Jesus in his Hebrew schooling in both Egypt and Palestine understood the meaning of the prophecies related to the "new covenant" and brought the news of its fulfillment by God, calling it a Re-birth and showing the results of it in his own person. It is a transformation, a metamorphosis into Divinity and Immortality, making us fit to enter the Kingdom of God in the heavens, making us perfect as God is perfect. It is what we were created to do...but we have to seek it.
Daniel adds more information about the availability of the Divine Nature then and now
"...I was, before... (Jesus') coming, a spirit who enjoyed the favor of the Father to the extent that my natural love was developed to the highest degree, and in that love I was comparatively happy. I also possessed great intellectual development but as to the Divine Love, which I now possess, I knew nothing of, nor did any spirit then living...
Never did I know the reality of what the Divine Love was, or that I was not in the position that I might have been, had not that Love been taken from mankind when our great earthly father committed his fatal act of disobedience (choosing independence over One-ness with God.) No spirit in those times before the coming of Jesus, could possibly progress higher than the sphere where this natural love and intellectual development existed in their greatest degree of perfection (the sixth spiritual heaven or "paradise")...
I was a prophet, as it is written, and God spoke to me through His spirits the things which I declared to the people, and also enabled me to foretell many things which would and did happen. But this great favor and gift did not bring to me the possession of the Divine Love or Nature of the Father; and when I came to die, I passed to the spirit world a spirit possessed only of the natural love and the great moral development which my communications from my associations with the spirits of the Father had given me...
Abraham, Moses or Elias never possessed this Divine Nature, although they were the specially chosen of God to do His work...So that, when the Master came into the spirit world and preached the great truth of the re-bestowal of the Divine Love, the spirits were as much surprised as were mortals; and there was just as much unbelief among them as among mortals... Well, at the time Moses and Elias met Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, they had received a portion of this Divine Love, because they had learned previous to that date (through Jesus' public ministry on Earth) of its re-bestowal on mankind. And as they were very spiritual beings in the sense that they had developed their natural love to its supreme excellence and were very near the Father in their soul development, so they were ready recipients of this Divine Love when it came again to man and spirits... the Transfiguration... was to show to the disciples of the Master, that while Jesus was the possessor and embodiment of this Divine Love in the mortal world, so Moses and Elias were the possessors of it in the spirit world. In other words, Jesus’ appearance (illumination) showed that it had been bestowed on mortal man, and the appearance (illumination) of Moses and Elias showed that it had also been bestowed on the spirits..." Daniel, the Prophet of the Tanakh, 7/21/1915
John 3:3 "...Jesus answered and said to... (Nicodemus), “Truly, truly, I say to you, except anyone be born from above, he is not able to see the Kingdom of God.” Nicodemus, 7/30/1915
1 John 3:9 "...Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God..."
Matthew 5:48 "...You shall be perfect, therefore, as your Heavenly Father is perfect..."
I hope this clears up my position. God's Love is available to all people to receive, and they don't have to change their religion. They may however, as they progress in God's Love through prayer and meditation, realize that not all of the tenets of their religion are true and not all of the requirements are necessary... and that Jesus is not such a bad guy.
Blessings...
Luke 13:28-30 "...There will be weeping and gnashing of the teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the Kingdom of God, but you yourself are being... (excluded.) And they will come from east and west, and from north and south, and will recline in the Kingdom of God. And behold, there are last who will be first, and there are first who will be last...”
From Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Present. soultruth.ca, new-birth.net
John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."
"God is Love, and His Love is something we can pray for every day and it will flow into us and transform us and make us One with Him”
"God is Love, and Love is something we can pray for”
"God is Love..."
Tell everyone for as Ezekiel says, "...The time grows short and the work is great..." 4/21/2024
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^ I find this stitched drivel to be more than inane
"Most Christians are Christians in name only, and do not understand the message that Jesus brought" is arrogant nonsense. How did you get "insight" to make such a pride-filled, judgmental attitude?
I strongly suggest that you read Jesus' parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14.
Lisa Sims
Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
Thank you for your comments, J__
I now get all of my insights from Jesus' Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to Present, soultruth.ca and newbirth.net, but always backed up by the Bible. There are many passages supporting the idea that most Christians do not understand Jesus message of the Rebirth in Divinity and Immortality, and the verse that comes to my mind immediately is Mark 7:14 "...Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it..."
Also: 1 John 3:9 "...Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God..."
I'm sure others could name quite a few also.
My favorite answer from the Messages is from Nicodemus to whom Jesus' vouched safe his most precious message to mankind.
"A master in Israel, and yet I did not understand this New Birth! How few understood it then, and how few now. Oh, the long years that have gone by since Jesus told me that I must be born again to inherit eternal life, and how comparatively seldom this great truth is taught by the churches and the teachers of religious matters..." Nicodemus, 7/30/1915
And to link the Messages to the Bible:
John 16:25 "...Thus far I have spoken to you only in parables...but a time is coming when I will tell you plainly about the Father..."
Blessings...
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Beautifully said
I'm so glad we can connect on this.Here we will have to part ways. It's okay with me that we disagree. You are a Christian and I really have no problem with that. But allow me to share with you my own take on this.
I don't think anything has changed. I don't think things worked one way a long time ago, and somehow work a different way now. I don't think that's what the New Covenant, when it finally comes, will mean. I think it means a deeper understanding, but not that earlier people didn't have it right. It is my assumption that the prophets believed this New Covenant would come in the World to Come. At that time, after the resurrection, human nature would literally be different. Anyhow, that's my own personal take on it. I'm sure there are a gazillion people, including fellow Jews, that think different.
And with all due respect, I can't agree that Christians understand the prophets. For one thing, they make a whole bunch of things into "prophecies" that are not prophetic at all. For example, when Hosea says, “When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son,” he is clearly talking about the exodus from egypt, not the messianic era.
Now let's talk about rebirth. Best I can make of it from talking to many Christians, being born again refers, as you yourself say, to a transformative experience. For example, Chuck Colson was a criminal, and even went to jail. But in jail, he went through an incredible religious experience, and changed his whole life. He formed a prison ministry to reach out to others. I would agree that something like that is a "born again" experience.
My problem therefore is not the Christian idea of born again. It is the Christian claim that we MUST be born again that I don't care for. Because quite frankly a lot of people have no need. Most people are not evil people. They are nominally good people that slip up, and then feel bad and repent. And of course there are a few people who are so exceptionally virtuous that others stand up and take notice. Those sort of people have no need to be transformed.
Proverbs says that a RIGHTEOUS person is not one who is perfect, but one who repents.
"The righteous man stumbles seven times and rises up again."
You are not the judge of other Christians' faith. Did you read the parable about the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18:9-14?
You should get your insights from the Bible and prayer, not from other books and web sites!
You write this..."There are many passages supporting the idea that most Christians do not understand Jesus message of the Rebirth in Divinity and Immortality, and the verse that comes to my mind immediately is Mark 7:14 "...Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it..." and interpret it to apply to Christians (other than yourself, of course).
Your out-of-context quote is from Matthew 7:13-14. You might want to continue reading Matthew 7! Verses 15-16 say, “Watch out for false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are voracious wolves. You will recognize them by their fruit. Grapes are not gathered from thorns or figs from thistles, are they?
BTW, you quote "Mark 7:14" incorrectly. Here is that verse: "Then he called the crowd again and said to them, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand." That quote comes from Matthew' gospel!
Here are some of Jesus' other words from that gospel...
“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. For by the standard you judge you will be judged, and the measure you use will be the measure you receive. Why do you see the speck in your brother’s eye, but fail to see the beam of wood in your own? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye,’ while there is a beam in your own? You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Matthew 7:1-5
I could go on, but my point should be clear: self-righteousness and critical judgement of others, especially by Christians, is self-deception and foolishness. Here is something to contemplate: Love your neighbor as yourself. (A phrase which appears in both Testaments!)
Muffled
Jesus in me
All one has to do to earn a BA is learn the teaching whether it is right or wrong and all one has to do to earn a Masters is to write a thesis which can be right or wrong.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe they are two different creations so they don't have to be consistent.