Biden, Pence and Trump.... the tale of the classified documents

[We Never Know]

I made this post on a thread yesterday but its seems my post fell victim to the groundhog day disappearance. So I thought I would make it into a thread.....

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc.


Now Biden and Pence when compared to Trump don't look bad..... Maybe Trumps actions even helped them look better.

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?

 

[SomeRandom]

Well doesn’t intent play a part in the severity of legal offences?
I know it usually does in my country.
So if I understand correctly (and I’m not American so forgive me if I don’t) Pence and Biden rectified their admittedly awful blunder rather quickly. So their defence could be easily understood as simple human error.
It sounds like Trump went out of his way not to return these documents and even did so purposefully. Making his alleged crime far worse by default.
Is that correct?
Like I said, not American. But damn the fall out from this has been……interesting to watch. Let’s just put it that way
Seriously guys. Running out of popcorn over here

 

[We Never Know]

Well doesn’t intent play a part in the severity of legal offences?
I know it usually does in my country.
So if I understand correctly (and I’m not American so forgive me if I don’t) Pence and Biden rectified their admittedly awful blunder rather quickly. So their defence could be easily understood as simple human error.
It sounds like Trump went out of his way not to return these documents and even did so purposefully. Making his alleged crime far worse by default.
Is that correct?
Like I said, not American. But damn the fall out from this has been……interesting to watch. Let’s just put it that way
Seriously guys. Running out of popcorn over here

Yes intent does play a part but even nonintentional doesn't erase the offense, it lessens it.

 

[SomeRandom]

Yes intent does play a part but even nonintentional doesn't erase the offense, it lessens it.

True enough.
But not returning documents, even classified ones, simply by mistake still sounds a hell of a lot better than going out of one’s way not to.
I don’t know how your laws work with regards to this sort of instance. So I don’t know if Pence and Biden even broke your laws or not. I genuinely don’t know.
Either way, Trump looks far worse by comparison
Like I swear. If I was a conspiracy theorist I would legitimately think he did this on purpose because he wanted to get indicted, just so he could play the victim to his extreme followers. And you know, maybe there’s some truth to that. I don’t know
The whole thing is bizarre, tbh

 

[Windwalker]

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?

Fun Fact! Trump was only charged for those he kept, not charged for those he returned! Therefore, neither Biden, Pence, nor Trump were charged for documents they had, yet returned after being asked to. Didn't know that did you?

What Trump is being charged for is obstruction, lying, hiding, and a list of other overt criminal behaviors. Therefore they need not be charged. Trump would not have been charged either, had he returned the other ones. He is only being charged for the ones he kept, lied about, and tried to hide. Neither Biden nor Pence acted criminally. Trump acted with criminal intent. End of argument.

 

[We Never Know]

Fun Fact! Trump was only charged for those he kept, not charged for those he returned! Therefore, neither Biden, Pence, nor Trump were charged for documents they had, yet returned after being asked to. Didn't know that did you?

What Trump is being charged for is obstruction, lying, hiding, and a list of other overt criminal behaviors. Neither Biden nor Pence acted criminally. Therefore they need not be charged. Trump would not have been charged either, had he returned the other ones. He is only being charged for the ones he kept, lied about, and tried to hide. End of argument.

Fun fact. Having them was illegal for all three of them(especially in unsecure area's).

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Windwalker]

Fun fact. Having them was illegal for all three of them.

18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

www.law.cornell.edu

The indictment is only listing the ones he kept. The ones he returned are not in the indictment. BTW, even though some things may be illegal, they only charge you if you show criminal intent. Having something inadvertently in your possession, and then returned it immediately once recognizing it is not showing criminal intent. Period.

 

[We Never Know]

The indictment is only listing the ones he kept. The ones he returned are not in the indictment. BTW, even though some things may be illegal, they only charge you if you show criminal intent. Having something inadvertently in your possession, and then returned it immediately once recognizing it is not showing criminal intent. Period.

Where is the criminal intent when you accidently kill someone(say in a car wreck due to bad roads)? People are charged even for accidents that have no intent.

 

[The Hammer]

Yes intent does play a part but even nonintentional doesn't erase the offense, it lessens it.

But the returning of the items, before it was made an issue, does lessen it a lot.

I've accidentally walked off the ship with classified stuff. Nad I returned them when I realized. Should I also have been arrested? I had a TS clearance at the time.

Not according to my security chief.

 

[The Hammer]

Where is the criminal intent when you accidently kill someone(say in a car wreck due to bad roads)? People are charged even for accidents that have no intent.

It's called criminal negligence

 

[We Never Know]

But the returning of the items, before it was made an issue, does lessen it a lot.

I've accidentally walked off the ship with classified stuff. Nad I returned them when I realized. Should I also have been arrested? I had a TS clearance at the time.

Not according to my security chief.

You returned them. They didnt find them at your house and you said "Oh my bad. You can have them back"

 

[Windwalker]

Where is the criminal intent when you accidently kill someone(say in a car wreck due to bad roads)? People are charged even for accidents that have no intent.

Whatever.

 

[We Never Know]

It's called criminal negligence

Icy roads really don't have criminal negligence IMO

 

[The Hammer]

Icy roads really don't have criminal negligence IMO

Depends on how one is driving. And whether they took all the proper winter precautions. But I'm no lawyer and it's not my area of expertise.

 

[The Hammer]

You returned them. They didnt find them at your house and you said "Oh my bad. You can have them back"

Afaik that isn't how Biden or Pence's documents were found either though.

I think they initiated the search and return themselves, which is similar to me walking the stuff back. IMO

 

[F1fan]

I made this post on a thread yesterday but its seems my post fell victim to the groundhog day disappearance. So I thought I would make it into a thread.....

Biden, Pence and Trump all three had classified documents in unsecure ares that they shouldn't have had.

Biden and Pence claimed they didn't know, stuck to that, cooperated and the records were returned/retrieved (some through a consent to search) with no problem.

Trump knew he had some, denied/lied he had them, tried to get others to lie about them, didn't cooperate, had to have search warrants served to retrieve them, etc.


Now Biden and Pence when compared to Trump don't look bad..... Maybe Trumps actions even helped them look better.

Bottom line is they all three had classified documents in unsecure area's that they shouldn't have had.... Therefore they all three, in reality, commited the same offense.

Should Biden and Pence be given a pass?

It's not an issue of a pass. It's an issue of what crime did they commit. As has been explained there has to be intent to commit crimes. There is no evidence that Biden or pence intended to take and possess these documents. The Trump case is about intent on multiple levels.

 

[We Never Know]

Afaik that isn't how Biden or Pence's documents were found either though.

I think they initiated the search and return themselves, which is similar to me walking the stuff back. IMO

I think they(others) searched and found some at each of their houses. But I could be wrong.
I want to say a search turned up some in the garage of one of them.

 

[The Hammer]

I think they(others) searched and found some at each of their houses. But I could be wrong.
I want to say a search turned up some in the garage of one of them.

*Informative

 

[We Never Know]

It's not an issue of a pass. It's an issue of what crime did they commit. As has been explained there has to be intent to commit crimes. There is no evidence that Biden or pence intended to take and possess these documents. The Trump case is about intent on multiple levels.

"There is no evidence that Biden or pence intended to take and possess these documents"

How do you think they ended up possessing them if they didnt take and keep them?

 

[F1fan]

"There is no evidence that Biden or pence intended to take and possess these documents"

How do you think they ended up possessing them if they didnt take and keep them?

Both men were not aware they were there. For a person to be held accountable for a crime they have to be the one that did it, or were part of a conspiracy. There's no evidence of either being responsible for the documents. Is it a crime to not going through boxes to check for government documents? As far as the reporting says neither know how they ended up in personal documents. And they certainly were not highly classified documents like what is reported to be in Trump's possession.

The same was for the Clinton email issue. She was not aware there were classified materials attached to the emails, as all classified materials were sent to het by others. She forwarded some of those documents. At the time there was no law that government officials couldn't use private servers. That law came after her case.