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Big bang theory dismissed

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Just to let you know that I did not read the above simply because of the volume, as my long experience is that there's no way to respond to such an essay. If you want to dramatically shorten it and get to the point, I'll read it.

BTW, I'm a retired scientist (anthropologist).

"And I know people here (atheists) will read about half of the first sentence of what I've typed, ignore the rest, and then chime in about how I've allegedly got something wrong with me, etc., etc. I couldn't care less."

My friend is offended that you equated anthropology with science.
 

VioletVortex

Well-Known Member
If no big bang then:
Universe has existed forever (and you'll have to account for the observed expansion).
Universe appeared by magic, sans understandable mechanism.
Other, unknown mechanism.

If the universe were expanding, we would have no way of knowing. The idea of an expanding universe would also involve the movement of Earth outward from the center of the universe, practically at the same rate as every other cosmic body. There would be no observable "stretching of the space between galaxies. Nothing would encounter any resistance, because everything from the stars to pieces of dust would be moving at the exact same speed to begin with. Therefore, nothing would slow down.

If some galaxies are actually getting further apart, it would more than like be the of drifting caused by the gravitational pull of other objects in space.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
First of all, it's no less difficult to find someone who has a PhD in any field of science who isn't also wrong about much or even most of what they believe, who is simultaneously unaware that what he believes is not a matter of fact but of what he believes. You wouldn't believe what kind of truly uninspired people pass for scientists these days, or how little proactive effort it takes to get the top grades in the most difficult university science courses. I won't explain why this is the case, but it is, and there are institutional protections which ensure that it remains so. What really matters at the end of the day is not what people believe or accept, but what the truth is. You've probably seen quotes from famous scientists like Maxwell and Planck and Bohr to that end. I would remind you that such people are rare not because there are few scientist capable of thinking outside the box, but that the more genius it takes to comprehend an idea, the less people will comprehend it, and the more isolated such people are from other such people, the less likely you'll know they ever existed. Based on the few of your statements I read, I would know you're an American (infer what you wil from this), without your having self-identified as a Yooper.

Secondly, it's not actually hard; it's just that "scientists" are actually human beings, so it is very uncommon for someone who is both intelligent and ambitious enough to put in the effort to get through grad school, essentially locking himself into the career track of either teaching or conducting research according to the very strict parameters of an extremely dogmatic groupthink paradigm which makes no tolerance or allowance for progressing thinking or inquiry, who will then throw away the career he has chosen and experience the adverse consequences to his family by simply stating that his private beliefs don't match his public acceptance. My brother (who teaches chemistry at a university in the Midwest) and I used to joke about how any "educated" person could put any stock in the Big Bang Theory, or in the Theory of Evolution. Yet neither of us would discuss our misgivings about bad science with colleagues, on account of having much to lose and nothing to gain from it. This is a common characteristic of individual adherence to propaganda and groupthink; social psychological research has shown that a wide gap exists between private acceptance and public overtures in many areas. In my experience there is no issue more divisive among thinking people than the one in question. That the new scientific paradigm, being a human endeavor, and humans being subject to all kinds of passions and extrinsic interests, is not the only exception to the rule that every attempt which humans have made to understand nature has been wrought with fallibility and errors, ought to be clearly understood by anyone objective enough to fancy himself a proper scientist. Yet in spite of this, the paradigm is not without is share of vocal critics, who are evidently never met with reasonable responses to their serious objections, and who have historically been vindicated again and again by experimentation and no less acceptance of their positions than the hostility they incurred. I know the mentality of these rogue pioneers, and the vast majority of them would have scoffed at the BBT not for its attempt at answering a difficult problem (that of--forgive me for being overly simplistic here, but--reducing existence to effect without cause, i.e. philosophical naturalism, atheism), but for the acceptance which it has gained in spite of having had its underlying assumptions shot to pieces again and again. Some less capable scientists aren't even recognized as such because they do take the hard road and forfeit their careers, and wind up on the creationism lecture circuit or wherever, where they continue to have their credentials put into question and other such ad hominem attacks. I'm reminded of Kent Hovind, who, being innocent of his charges and they being trumped up because he was recognized as an enemy of the establishment (a heretic), had a judge tell him, on the public record, that what he was teaching was the reason she was sending him to prison. In other words, we haven't made much progress since Socrates drank the hemlock. I don't know about you, but that's not exactly the kind of world I want to live in. It is, however, the consensus which you're appealing to. I would also add that while such a consensus generally does exist, there is no consensus as to the how we know what we claim to know. Case in point: how many Darwin-loving biologists do you know that would call On the Origin of Species a scientific reference manual? And you've also got to realize that the consensus was artificially induced in academia and the public consciousness in the early 60s as Cold War scare tactic, that every since then there has been a deliberate and routine cover-up as well as willful ignorance of research conducted outside the US and UK or without government funding because it doesn't fit the government paradigm (do some investigation of the safety of GMOs or of the neurotoxicity of vaccines and you'll see what I mean), and of such things as scientists reneging on positions which they have popularized due to widely disseminated and politically motivated agendas driven by financial interests (e.g. Out of Africa hypothesis). Again, this has always been the case since the dawn of Man, and yet those of the new scientific paradigm pretend like all that's changed since the speed of light was last officially changed in 1972. Really, guys?

Either you don't understand the first principles of science (the philosophical assumptions that go into the composition of laws, not the secondary principles, which are the laws themselves), or else you're misinformed by someone who has tried to explain them away in a vain attempt to outwit them and rewrite the matter-of-fact history of the universe, presumably in order to justify an irrational and rather absurd religious sentiment (atheism), which itself is the mere rejection of another religious sentiment and not actually anything rooted in empirical observation. I imagine the explanation goes like this: "BBT isn't rejected by these laws because it doesn't claim anything came into existence," while failing to remark on the inevitable implication that it hasn't answered anything relevant to the origin of the matter/energy, and has only therefore complicated the matter and thus rendered itself an unscientific as well as unsubstantiated hypothesis. Simple question: If the BBT isn't being tauted as a valid alternative to the view that the universe was created by an intelligent being or other outside mechanism, as is its original and sole purpose, then what good is it? And I know people here (atheists) will read about half of the first sentence of what I've typed, ignore the rest, and then chime in about how I've allegedly got something wrong with me, etc., etc. I couldn't care less. In any case, it's remarks like this, bare assertions in response to valid objections or refutations, and unwillingness to provide references for unsubstantiated claims, which make scientists generally unwilling and uninterested in arguing with laymen, or listening to whatever they have to say. And while you might reasonably infer that you don't need to care about their views to any extent or engage them in such discourse, according to their terms or the universal rules of logic and argumentation, it is a bit hypocritical to obliquely cite an unnamed cosmologist you might have once read as a means of persuasion in support of a hypothesis you have about something which is pertinent to scientific investigation.
There's a lot of words in what you say. . . unfortunately. And while I wasn't about to plow through them all---your self-conscious, rambling prose is far too tiresome---I did dip into to it a few times and noted some amusing comments and ridiculous assertions. Normally I'd respond, pointing them out, but I'm not a fan of the affected palaver you seem to favor and wouldn't bother reading any reply you might post. I only say this to let you know that not everyone is impressed by your wall of words or buys its content. In fact, its content is somewhat sad and even silly at times, and in more ways than one.


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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"And I know people here (atheists) will read about half of the first sentence of what I've typed, ignore the rest, and then chime in about how I've allegedly got something wrong with me, etc., etc. I couldn't care less."

My friend is offended that you equated anthropology with science.
It's obvious you really do not understand what anthropology is. Nor did I say or imply that "something is wrong" with you, so now you resort to telling a lie.

We're done as I'd rather discuss things with people who do not lie and demean a generally well-respected profession that clearly is science-based, which is why there are so many anthropology articles found in publications like "Scientific American".
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
If the universe were expanding, we would have no way of knowing.
Actually through something called "red-shift", we actually do know. There literally is no doubt amongst cosmologists that the BB occurred, so the real questions are how and why?
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
It's obvious you really do not understand what anthropology is. Nor did I say or imply that "something is wrong" with you, so now you resort to telling a lie.

We're done as I'd rather discuss things with people who do not lie and demean a generally well-respected profession that clearly is science-based, which is why there are so many anthropology articles found in publications like "Scientific American".

I'm not lying, just quoted a sentence from the long post which you didn't read, and since you refused to read it, you've lost the argument.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
or how little proactive effort it takes to get the top grades in the most difficult university science courses.
Then by all means go get yourself a Ph.D. in science if it's that easy. Go spend several years learning advanced mathematics, complicated formulas, and dozens of books worth of the workings of natural sciences. Sacrifice your weekends and evenings and social life, get stiff pains in your neck, and sore wrists from all the writing/typing and other homework.
essentially locking himself into the career track of either teaching or conducting research according to the very strict parameters of an extremely dogmatic groupthink paradigm which makes no tolerance or allowance for progressing thinking or inquiry
That is blatantly false.
My brother (who teaches chemistry at a university in the Midwest) and I used to joke about how any "educated" person could put any stock in the Big Bang Theory, or in the Theory of Evolution.
It's easy to put stock into evolution because there is an abundance of evidence to support it piled high as a mountain.
My friend is offended that you equated anthropology with science.
Your friend apparently doesn't know what anthropology is, or that anthropologists frequently have a background in medicine, biology, osteology, and some other fields. And then there is the forensic anthropologist who is schooled in all the plus physics, chemistry, criminal justice, and paleontology. Anthropology is a fine blending of social sciences, humanities, and hard sciences, and it's not unusual for them to have to be a "jack of all trades" if they do more than teach and field studies.
 

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
Quick question.

How could the big bang theory....
Be considered as a possible explanation for "existence" , when in order for the BB to occurr, It , itself would have had to existed, whether it "existed" solely as itself,within itself, Somewhere else, nowhere else, Or not.

And to make it clear,
How could " whatever it's component are made of come to be? Were they always there? Or were they "born" ?
How were they born? A sexually perhaps?

But
How could they have created themselves when "what was created", before it's creation hadn't "existed"

If it always "existed", why would "it" after a seemingly eternal "existence" not be able to contain itself suddenly...and explode creating the universe and everything in it which obviously is Never going to not existt?..and which obviously goes on forever.

Not that I should even touch on this...
When it's the eternal itself that causes people to create a creation theorry to begin with....and ironically also proove how existence was made possible...

Whats the matter? Doesn't make sense?


If matter cannot be created or destroyed.....

How did the matter get there?

Ohhh it was always there......and it'll always be there .....

Using a freaking scientists therum to show how funny we are... Lol
So" it" will always be there in one form or another...
And the non physical heavens....are not going anywhere...and will always exist...
Expounding infinitly ..

So basically the heavens, or the universe,..according to human logic...as you can see...demonstrate to us.... by the power God has..the existence of the unfathomable...explainable only by the way of God....eternal power that is proof and sign that God is real.....

Oh and if you read the book of Romans chapter one....verses 19 and 20....

Along with Psalm 19:1

You will see that I am not the only one who's thought about this....

Amen?
......

Hope I didn't get sidetracked and that this made sense.

Because I'm eager to proceed to my next lesson....

"The "nature" of God"
The singularity existed "before" the big bang. The big bang explains how it came to be as it is.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
You need stars before you can have planets. Where do you think the heavy elements that comprise them came from?
The mass accretes by universal gravitation, any masses not spinning would simply fall into the star.

The Seed (singularity) contains enough pressure to form the heavy elements, but it did not have to be like that. It could have all started as a single atom
with atomic mass of all the particles in the Universe.

The only remaining masses were those revolving around the star.
If this were so, then the planets would be orbiting in various directions.

So why do physicists believe in the Big Bang?
Because they have either not read my thesis, or they have a vested financial interest in not accepting it.

Watch this short looped animation to see how the seed or singularity must have split.

big%20unwind.gif


http://www.flight-light-and-spin.com/big-unwind.htm
 
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