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Big Bang Theory Primer

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Continued from first post.

Last time I provided a rough derivation of the Friedmann equation for our expanding universe as,
(a'/a) ^2 = ( 8π/3)ρG - k*(c/a) ^2

Where a(t) is the magnification factor or scale factor for the expansion of space between two points in the universe and
a' = da/dt.
So a'/a is the Rate of increase or decrease of expansion of space divided by the current expansion factor value.
ρ is the uniform mass density of the universe.
And a more rigorous derivation from General Relativity shows that the parameter k,
k= - 2U/(mc^2x^2)
Is the curvature of space, with U being the total energy of a small region with mass m at a distance x from the observer in the comoving frame that expands with space. Note that since energy is conserved and the distance x between two points in space remains the same in the comoving frame that expands with space, k is a constant.
Thus the Friedmann equation relation the expansion rate with the curvature and mass density of the universe.


Consider now that you are an observer and you are looking at a spherical region of space with unit radius in the comoving frame centered around you. Then the radius in the physical frame (which does not expand with expansion of the universe) increases with expansion of space as,
r= a(t) * 1 = a(t)
Look at the spherical region of space below and imagine you are in the middle. As space expands, this region blows up, so actual radius is increasing along with the expansion scale factor a(t).
expanding-universe.jpeg

This expansion is just like the expansion of an ideal frictionless gas. Hence for a small increase in volume dV of this spherical region of space the 1st law of thermodynamics energy conservation equation gives

dW + dE =0

Where dW = p*dV is the work done due to expansion of the spherical volume of space by an amount dV and p is the pressure inside this volume. dE is the change in the internal energy content of this volume due to expansion. In terms of rates with respect to time, we get,
dW/dt + dE/dt =0

Now volume of sphere is
V = (4/3)*πa^3
So
dW/dt = p*dV/dt = p*(4πa^2)*(da/dt)

By Einstein,
E =mc^2


The total mass inside the spherical volume is given by volume of the sphere multiplied by the mass density. Hence,
m= ρV


So
dE/dt = (ρc^2)*dV/dt + (dρ/dt) * c^2*V

Thus the 1st law equation
dE/dt + dW/dt = 0
Gives
ρ' + 3*(a'/a)*(ρ + p/c^2) = 0

where ρ' = dρ/dt is the rate of change of Mass density due to expansion
a' = da/dt is the expansion rate of space
p = pressure of matter, radiation etc. in the universe.


This equation is called the fluid equation for the universe and is the second most important relationship governing the behavior of the expanding cosmos after the Friedmann equation. It relates the mass density, expansion rate and pressure together.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
How can you speak of "conserved energy" in connection with a Big Bang idea as a beginning of the Universe? A "conserved energy" speaks of an eternal stage where everything in the Universe changes eternally and this contradicts a Big Bang formation.
Big Bang theory is the theory regarding the behavior and observable consequences of an already expanding universe. Energy is certainly conserved throughout the expansion. The cause of the expansion itself is tackled by the inflation theory. However, it is not at all the case that cosmologists believe that the energy conservation was violated or that the universe had an absolute beginning in any sense. In fact, most cosmologists believe there was a pre-existing, though very different kind of physical reality from which the current universe emerged through Big Bang and there was no singularity at all.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Big Bang theory is the theory regarding the behavior and observable consequences of an already expanding universe. Energy is certainly conserved throughout the expansion. The cause of the expansion itself is tackled by the inflation theory. However, it is not at all the case that cosmologists believe that the energy conservation was violated or that the universe had an absolute beginning in any sense. In fact, most cosmologists believe there was a pre-existing, though very different kind of physical reality from which the current universe emerged through Big Bang and there was no singularity at all.


There are two main possibilities:

I: Time existed before the Big Bang. In every theory such as this, energy also has always existed and there is no true 'singularity'.

II: Time only exists *after* the Big Bang. In these scenarios, conservation of energy only applies after the Big Bang: when there is time.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
There are two main possibilities:

I: Time existed before the BB. In every theory such as this, energy also has always existed and there is no true 'singularity'.

II: Time only exists *after* the Big Bang. In these scenarios, conservation of energy only applies after the Big Bang: when there is time.
True. But most Quantum Gravity theories seem to indicate that repulsive forces predominate as universe gets smaller and smaller. So it seems unlikely that there was ever a singularity in the sense of infinite density.
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
Whoooeee. Math is a language used to describe stuff, analyze stuff, and sometimes even to predict stuff. It doesn't create stuff. Sometimes it leads us over a cliff, but we're starting to learn about that. If a mathematician could sit down with an angel he/she could probably create some kind of mathematical model for angeldom. Not likely gonna happen though. If you don't speak math (like me) it all sounds like gibberish, if you do, it seems like a reasonable form of communication.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Whoooeee. Math is a language used to describe stuff, analyze stuff, and sometimes even to predict stuff. It doesn't create stuff. Sometimes it leads us over a cliff, but we're starting to learn about that. If a mathematician could sit down with an angel he/she could probably create some kind of mathematical model for angeldom. Not likely gonna happen though. If you don't speak math (like me) it all sounds like gibberish, if you do, it seems like a reasonable form of communication.
If this is directed at me..

I am describing the behavior of cosmos using Mathematics from the well established and well validated Big Bang theory. You have some concern?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
True. But most Quantum Gravity theories seem to indicate that repulsive forces predominate as universe gets smaller and smaller. So it seems unlikely that there was ever a singularity in the sense of infinite density.

Agreed.
 

WalterTrull

Godfella
If this is directed at me..

I am describing the behavior of cosmos using Mathematics from the well established and well validated Big Bang theory. You have some concern?
Not directed at anyone in particular, everyone in general. There are a bunch of languages used to describe the universe. All have certain drawbacks; all have certain advantages. The multitude of religions are also languages, again plus and minus. It's self defeating to try to argue the finer points of one language using another.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not directed at anyone in particular, everyone in general. There are a bunch of languages used to describe the universe. All have certain drawbacks; all have certain advantages. The multitude of religions are also languages, again plus and minus. It's self defeating to try to argue the finer points of one language using another.
Strength of science is its exactness and predictive success, something that other languages lack in describing the phenomena of the cosmos.
 

Super Universe

Defender of God

Heating atoms causing them to restructure is not life. "You start with a random clump of atoms, and if you shine light on it for long enough, it should not be so surprising that you get a plant," England said. This is beyond ridiculous.


The scientists keep trying to bring to life chemicals and minerals but they will never be successful.
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
There are two main possibilities:

I: Time existed before the Big Bang. In every theory such as this, energy also has always existed and there is no true 'singularity'.

II: Time only exists *after* the Big Bang. In these scenarios, conservation of energy only applies after the Big Bang: when there is time.

If I may ask, what is your preference of the two alternatives: Do you think that time is fundamental or emergent?
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The other key idea is based on observation that the universe is expanding. What is meant here is not that galaxies are moving through space away from each other... rather that space itself is blowing up (like a baking cake) taking the embedded galaxies (raisins) with it.


I might as well say "the resurrection is some fact, we need a theory on how that happened". There is no such thing as a free lunch, except when we talk about the cosmos and perpetual motion machines and apparently jesus!!!! . The most sound theories in science can be often times eventuall lyrics understood as crackpot at best. Easter bunnies!!!! Everywhere Easter bunnies saying "I am late I am late I am really really late" "and the Cheshire cat said to alice" everyone here is mad, and I am not all there myself".
Why is the theory of the big bang as presented DOA BEFORE ITS ARTICULATED? if you can't answer that, there is its problem
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The other key idea is based on observation that the universe is expanding. What is meant here is not that galaxies are moving through space away from each other... rather that space itself is blowing up (like a baking cake) taking the embedded galaxies (raisins) with it.


I might as well say "the resurrection is some fact, we need a theory on how that happened". There is no such thing as a free lunch, except when we talk about the cosmos and perpetual motion machines and apparently jesus!!!! . The most sound theories in science can be often times eventuall lyrics understood as crackpot at best. Easter bunnies!!!! Everywhere Easter bunnies saying "I am late I am late I am really really late" "and the Cheshire cat said to alice" everyone here is mad, and I am not all there myself".
Why is the theory of the big bang as presented DOA BEFORE ITS ARTICULATED? if you can't answer that, there is its problem
Please speak coherently.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Please speak coherently.
I said it's DEAD ON ARRIVAL, before it's articulated how hard is that? Do I need to draw stick figures? does bigger fonts help? Now you might ask how? But if you ask that then how is it possible you will understand it? I suppose I could say you have the cranium determine the cosmos. Last I checked the cranium is tiny very tiny.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I said it's DEAD ON ARRIVAL, before it's articulated how hard is that? Do I need to draw stick figures? does bigger fonts help? Now you might ask how? But if you ask that then how is it possible you will understand it? I suppose I could say you have the cranium determine the cosmos. Last I checked the cranium is tiny very tiny.
Why is it dead on arrival?
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
Continued from first post.

Last time I provided a rough derivation of the Friedmann equation for our expanding universe as,
(a'/a) ^2 = ( 8π/3)ρG - k*(c/a) ^2

Where a(t) is the magnification factor or scale factor for the expansion of space between two points in the universe and
a' = da/dt.
So a'/a is the Rate of increase or decrease of expansion of space divided by the current expansion factor value.
ρ is the uniform mass density of the universe.
And a more rigorous derivation from General Relativity shows that the parameter k,
k= - 2U/(mc^2x^2)
Is the curvature of space, with U being the total energy of a small region with mass m at a distance x from the observer in the comoving frame that expands with space. Note that since energy is conserved and the distance x between two points in space remains the same in the comoving frame that expands with space, k is a constant.
Thus the Friedmann equation relation the expansion rate with the curvature and mass density of the universe.


Consider now that you are an observer and you are looking at a spherical region of space with unit radius in the comoving frame centered around you. Then the radius in the physical frame (which does not expand with expansion of the universe) increases with expansion of space as,
r= a(t) * 1 = a(t)
Look at the spherical region of space below and imagine you are in the middle. As space expands, this region blows up, so actual radius is increasing along with the expansion scale factor a(t).
expanding-universe.jpeg

This expansion is just like the expansion of an ideal frictionless gas. Hence for a small increase in volume dV of this spherical region of space the 1st law of thermodynamics energy conservation equation gives

dW + dE =0

Where dW = p*dV is the work done due to expansion of the spherical volume of space by an amount dV and p is the pressure inside this volume. dE is the change in the internal energy content of this volume due to expansion. In terms of rates with respect to time, we get,
dW/dt + dE/dt =0

Now volume of sphere is
V = (4/3)*πa^3
So
dW/dt = p*dV/dt = p*(4πa^2)*(da/dt)

By Einstein,
E =mc^2


The total mass inside the spherical volume is given by volume of the sphere multiplied by the mass density. Hence,
m= ρV


So
dE/dt = (ρc^2)*dV/dt + (dρ/dt) * c^2*V

Thus the 1st law equation
dE/dt + dW/dt = 0
Gives
ρ' + 3*(a'/a)*(ρ + p/c^2) = 0

where ρ' = dρ/dt is the rate of change of Mass density due to expansion
a' = da/dt is the expansion rate of space
p = pressure of matter, radiation etc. in the universe.


This equation is called the fluid equation for the universe and is the second most important relationship governing the behavior of the expanding cosmos after the Friedmann equation. It relates the mass density, expansion rate and pressure together.

Can you kind of "dumb this down" for us folk who never got past college algebra?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you kind of "dumb this down" for us folk who never got past college algebra?
This post was the mathematical derivation. I provided it to show that the equations of the Big Bang theory are not just made up. Thus the first equation in big red fonts, called the Friedmann equation, is an expression giving us the relation between the curvature of space and the rate of expansion of space. It was derived based on how an observer would calculate the gravitational and kinetic energy of a region of the universe with a certain mass 'm' and a certain distance away from her as the space expands between her and the object whose energy she is calculating.this is exactly the kind of thing you would do if you want to find the energy of, say, a flying projectile in the sky... but now the object is a distant galaxy millions of light years away.


The last equation, also in big red fonts, is called the fluid equation. It relates the mass density and pressure in a region of expanding space with its rate of expansion. This relation comes from using thermodynamic energy conservation principle on a region of expanding space. It is very similar to how an engineer calculates the amount of work that could be done by hot expanding steam in, say a steam engine or a steam based coal power plant. In a steam engine, what happens is that the heat from coal vaporizes the water to hot steam. Steam wants to expand in volume and exerts pressure on the piston which is displaced outwards resulting in mechanical movement of the piston which is the available work that is converted into motion of the wheels of the steam locomotive. In such cases, the energy conservation law relates the change in internal energy of the steam as it pushes outwards and converts this energy into work. The situation for an expanding spatial region of space with a uniform mass density is also similar. As it expands, the change in the internal energy of the region is balanced by the pressure force driven work due to this expansion. This relationship provides us with the fluid equation.

In a later post, I will discuss the physical consequences of these equations on the behavior of the universe. So stay tuned. :)
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
I said it's DEAD ON ARRIVAL, before it's articulated how hard is that? Do I need to draw stick figures? does bigger fonts help? Now you might ask how? But if you ask that then how is it possible you will understand it? I suppose I could say you have the cranium determine the cosmos. Last I checked the cranium is tiny very tiny.

You claim it is dead on arrival, but fail to explain why you at is the case. I think you are wrong in this evaluation, but am willing to consider any actual argument you can make (especially if it is based on evidence).

In the OP, it is noted that we actually know that galaxies are moving away from each other. This is known through the red-shifts and how those red-shifts change with increasing distance (the red-shift is related to speed away from us).

What, precisely, is your issue with this?

Then, the proposal is made that this is actually an expansion of space itself and NOT simply the galaxies moving through space. This may be harder to grasp, but it isn't a particularly difficult thing if you ponder it a but. The analogy with a rising cake is helpful, perhaps.

Anyway, this is the basic idea that can be put into general relativity and derive equations describing how fast the universe will expand based on the amount of matter and energy in it.
 
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