Tough call. I don't trust either. Big government is usually in bed with big business. Where does one end and the other begin?
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Big Government or Big Business?
- Thread starter MysticSang'ha
- Start date
Tough call. I don't trust either. Big government is usually in bed with big business. Where does one end and the other begin?
Alceste
Vagabond
Government should be powerful enough to counter the worst side effects of powerful business interests (i.e. Pollution, labour exploitation, corruption, intimidation, etc.) and no more.
We don't allow corporate donations at all in Canada and have a cap on private donations. That makes our politicians a little more accountable to the public and less likely to be bought. In the US, there is no point trying to distinguish between big business and big government. They are on the same team, working toward a shared vision of outrageous profits for the top 0.1% at the expense of everything and everyone else.
We don't allow corporate donations at all in Canada and have a cap on private donations. That makes our politicians a little more accountable to the public and less likely to be bought. In the US, there is no point trying to distinguish between big business and big government. They are on the same team, working toward a shared vision of outrageous profits for the top 0.1% at the expense of everything and everyone else.
Nah...it means yours was just a silly repetition of Mercy's post, ie, counter-examples unrelated to the big-vs-small-gov issue.
I'm perfectly willing to discuss the issue, but not join in on such pointless bickering. (I'm not Canuckistanian, you know.)
Nowhere did I say that market forces are all we need to secure rights. I believe in government....small government.
A basic tenet of my party (Libertarian) is that small government (lacking big spending on the nanny state & foreign
adventurism) can ensure our rights by courts & police powers. You'll disagree with our approach, but we still favor
rights & liberties. That is not changed with my preference for big business over big government.
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WyattDerp
Active Member
A government by the people and for the people, would be exactly the right size. It is, in theory how people organize things like maintaining roads, or taking care of the young, sick and elderly, and those who have fallen on hard times.
There are sectors of society who don't care much for that. They have their their contractors, they would not be caught using public transportation or healthcare dead -- so of course the push is to dismantle government where it can't be bought. Luckily, most of it *can* be bought, that's why there is still so much of it ^^
Government keeps getting blamed for stuff corporations bribe it to do, but is (supposed to be) invisible where it works in lockstep with them.
As for other big things, I personally hate the fact that Twitter and Facebook are so heavily used, though I don't mean those specifically, they just represent the disease. Even this forum is owned by some faceless random corporation. I'm sick of a web where not every single user has their own webspace with their own email, and where everything is run for ads and data mining. I call it "The Big Noob", it's like the big sleep, but with zombies.
I generally hate Big Media, Big Gaming, in one word, Big Distraction. What I would love is Big Journalism, with "journalism" being something that actually deserves the name. I would LOVE to live in a world where critical thought is breathing down the neck of everyone, instead of this foul odor of idiocy and greed. And, you know, BIG DEMOCRACY.
There are sectors of society who don't care much for that. They have their their contractors, they would not be caught using public transportation or healthcare dead -- so of course the push is to dismantle government where it can't be bought. Luckily, most of it *can* be bought, that's why there is still so much of it ^^
Government keeps getting blamed for stuff corporations bribe it to do, but is (supposed to be) invisible where it works in lockstep with them.
As for other big things, I personally hate the fact that Twitter and Facebook are so heavily used, though I don't mean those specifically, they just represent the disease. Even this forum is owned by some faceless random corporation. I'm sick of a web where not every single user has their own webspace with their own email, and where everything is run for ads and data mining. I call it "The Big Noob", it's like the big sleep, but with zombies.
I generally hate Big Media, Big Gaming, in one word, Big Distraction. What I would love is Big Journalism, with "journalism" being something that actually deserves the name. I would LOVE to live in a world where critical thought is breathing down the neck of everyone, instead of this foul odor of idiocy and greed. And, you know, BIG DEMOCRACY.
Here is something else which big government does, but big business cannot....
As economy flails, debtors' prisons thrive - CBS News
As economy flails, debtors' prisons thrive - CBS News
WyattDerp
Active Member
If you have big business and no government, what exactly protects you against big business? "Competition"? Really? When it's much more profitable to conspire against the customers? If you take competition for granted, you kinda are taking for granted a government big enough to recognize and split up monopolies. I say we don't even have that. We have poodles in shirt pockets. But even those are still too powerful and annoying for some, go figure.
And it's not like anyone workers in the corporation get to vote. When your boss starts asking for your facebook password, it's courts that (fail to) protect you, not the fact that you can just quit, because hey, **** feeding your kids, right? You are taking for granted a landscape of competition and and choices that the very same big corporations are working hard, and successfully, into the opposite direction of.
WyattDerp
Active Member
All (corrupt) government is a business. Not all business is a government.
Who builds the prisons? Who is doing the catering? And so on. Yes, this is a favour only criminal government ******** can do for criminal business ********, you got that much right.
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
Denying reality doesn't make that reality go away. Having a stream of someone else's crude oil pouring across one's front yard is a violation of that homeowner's property rights. This is not a difficult concept, Revolting.
What we need is an end to virtually unlimited corporate power. Unfortunately, only the government can--and should--make that happen. And that is where you and I disagree.
I can see why you got the Jester award.
LOL, you really think a Halliburton boycott would have done a damn thing? And last time I checked, Barack Obama was a senator, years removed from the presidency, when the Iraq War began.
Like I said, we can have the discussion about why two parties dominate the landscape in another thread.
Strawmen, distorting what I said, throwing the discussion off-topic, etc.
Feel free to stop lying about my beliefs.
Once you do, we can actually engage in a rational discussion. But that's the problem--way too many of you libertarian/conservatives go a step beyond simply insulting your opponents: You blatantly distort their positions. Truth for you (plural) is a commodity to be seized, not a value to be shared.But keep at it, Revolting. Let's see how well that worked for you in the last election.
This is where I'm at too. But it's certainly fun to watch the debates on which is considered preferable.
WyattDerp
Active Member
This is where I'm at too. But it's certainly fun to watch the debates on which is considered preferable.
It's a false dichotomy, so what's there to debate, where could it possibly lead to other than wasted time?
I've pointed out differences, but yes....the unholy relationship between the two is problematic.
This is irrelevant to my post about government being the sole user of debtors' prisons for debts to themselves.
But to address your post, government is the one who takes our money to hire the construction & operation of
prisons filled by the criminal justice system....run by guess who....government!
If I find a business with hateful practices, I can avoid them. But if the fed gov perpetrates evil, the alternative
is emigration. So I am more wary of my leaders.
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Sounds awful. But the Iraq & Afghan wars are worse.
So I'll continue to face the reality of gov being the more dangerous.
They don't have "virtually unlimited power".
If you want one too, then try being clever & mirthful.
To you it matters which of The Big Two dominates.
To me it matters only that The Big Two dominate.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
But please don't elaborate.
Didn't you see the prefix, "Perhaps"?
You're too quick to take offense & become petulant.
This isn't interesting.
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This is where I'm at too. But it's certainly fun to watch the debates on which is considered preferable.
Well, in that case, I'll play along.
There is more opportunity for the abuse of power through the instrument of government. Big government seeks to control people whereas big business primarily seeks to maximize profits. Big bizz only seeks to control people in order to max out profit so, in some ways, they're more predictable than big govt, with its many different competing agendas and ways of manipulating people. At least most corporations are just after my money and not my body or soul.
WyattDerp
Active Member
Right. Influencing your choices to be able to sell you stuff that's bad for you is just not something that would even occur to a corporation. Or something like making debt seem tempting to people. Nu-uh! And of course, you can get all the money you want without *any* detriment to body and soul, and stuff like slavery has always been heavily resisted by industrialists. Corporations also don't ever have anything to do with using the government to send people into war! And even if they maybe did a while ago, like some communist pinko general claimed -- something like "putting your grandchildren in debt to control oil that's nutty to be addicted to in the first place", or forcing you to pay for bankes ******* up, is just not something that would occur recently. That's all the past, this is a brave new world :yes:
I think the Libertarian view is short-sighted and naively assumes that the government is the only threat to our freedom.
I'm in favour of freedom myself, but I recognize that part of ensuring freedom involves limiting the ability of individuals to infringe on the freedom of others.
The Sum of Awe
Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Big Business can be a burden - an example is Google. Google is a big business due to its popularity, and it is a great search engine, has it's own unique things like Docs, Gmail, etc. which are fine. The burden comes with buying off other businesses (Google bought youtube), and they don't always buy something and make it worse, some businesses were successful at buying something and renewing it. But sometimes, very often, such as Google buying youtube, they make a hell of a mess.
Also, there comes a burden when Big Businesses become too big other than buying off other businesses: they eat other businesses alive, wipe them out dry, which makes a horror in the economy.
Big government is a burden... No explanation needed.
But, to be quite honest with you, I'm a Capitalist, not a Corporatist. So if I were to choose one, it'd be big government. Big businesses are way too messy, and big government can at least be cleaned up.
Also, there comes a burden when Big Businesses become too big other than buying off other businesses: they eat other businesses alive, wipe them out dry, which makes a horror in the economy.
Big government is a burden... No explanation needed.
But, to be quite honest with you, I'm a Capitalist, not a Corporatist. So if I were to choose one, it'd be big government. Big businesses are way too messy, and big government can at least be cleaned up.
Yeah, it is probably useless to argue as if big govt and bizz are seperate. I was just trying to humor Mystic, but don't actually see much benefit in generalizing about which is better or worse than the other. It doesn't even really make sense until we get down to specific cases of power abuse and corruption, but then the causes and solutions are situational and multifaceted.