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Biggest turnoff to Christianity
- Thread starter Hope
- Start date
There may be many religions but there is only one true God, Jehovah. Those who worship him must do so in spirit and truth according to his will, not theirs. Since there is only one true God, there must only be one acceptable form of worship to him--that which he has provided in his word the Bible. The Bible is a living document. Those of you who read must be able to recognize those prophecies that have already been fulfilled with those yet to be fulfilled. Some people aren't going to believe no matter what but as his Word says, The nations WILL know that he is Jehovah--soon!
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Ernestine,
First of all, welcome to the forums buddy!
Secondly, I would have to say that you outlined my biggest turnoff to Christianity in your post. t seems to me that most Christians think the same way you do--that there is one god, and one way to worship him. Coincidentally, the way that they practice is the right way.
Every major religion in the world has a written word which calims to contain fulfilled prophecies. Every major religion in the world claims that their god and their methods of worship are right and others wrong. What is it about your religion that makes it stand out from these others.
First of all, welcome to the forums buddy!
Secondly, I would have to say that you outlined my biggest turnoff to Christianity in your post. t seems to me that most Christians think the same way you do--that there is one god, and one way to worship him. Coincidentally, the way that they practice is the right way.
Every major religion in the world has a written word which calims to contain fulfilled prophecies. Every major religion in the world claims that their god and their methods of worship are right and others wrong. What is it about your religion that makes it stand out from these others.
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Hello Ernestine. Glad to see you surfed in. I'm just curious, what sect of Christianity do you practice, and, are the other sects of Christianity on the right path, or are they as wrong as the Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, etc.?Ernestine said:
Thanks,
TVOR
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
My biggest turnoff to Christianity?
Christian arrogance.Ernestine said:
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
What are the odds that this message will ring a bell with those that need it most?Maize said:
TVOR
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
I'm not holding my breath...The Voice of Reason said:
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Knowing the difference between educating and banging your head against the wall will save you a headache. 
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
For what it's worth, I put it in my "Great Replies" thread. I'm gonna keep that thread going, saving my favorite lines in it. I'd say that, over time, it'll give us some great memories.
TVOR
TVOR
Davidium
Active Member
What is it about Christianity that has caused me not to remain a follower of it... ?
Once again, this is a "where to begin" moment. I will try not to be as long as I usually am. :jiggy:
To start off with, I think you need to define what you mean by Christianity... You see, I believe in most of the teachings of that Galilean Mystic that we have come to call Jesus. Honor God, Treat others as you want to be treated, Learn from your mistakes, and avoid hypocrisy in your life.
To me, this part of my Deism. Some have called me a Christian Deist because I integrate the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth along with those of Marcus Aurelius, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Plato, and so many other philosophers.
For a great look at Christian Deism, I would recommend "Christianity as Old as the Creation" by Matthew Tindal.
http://dynamicdeism.org/library/christianity_as_old_as_the_creat.htm
Jesus of Nazareth was one of the greatest moral philosophers of all time. I simply do not accept the mythology that has been placed around his life. He was only the "Son of God" in the sense that we all are the sons and daughters of God. I do not accept the Ressurection and Ascension, as they do not pass the test of reason.
And I believe that Paul was an epileptic neurotic opportunist who hijacked what was a great religious and philosophical movement and perverted it. Today's Christians are not followers of Jesus, but followers of Paul. The true followers of Jesus became pharisees of the Temple and were the original impetus behind what is now Reformed Judeism.
I also do not accept that the Bible is the word of God. It is full of too many factual errors, contradictions, and principles that do not fit into todays world. I beleive that if God were to leave his word for us, it would be timeless, able for all to percieve (whether or not they can read) and would not be subject to centuries of mistranslation.
I believe that word does exist, and it is the one thing that we know God authored himself. I believe that the Word of God is not the Bible, but rather the creation itself.
If you want to read God's word, go look at the intricate nature of a leaf, or study the majesties of the cosmos. Science is not against the Word of God, but rather the ultimate study of that Word.
But I digress... sorry... I know, makes for long posts...
However, my biggest problem with modern Paulist Christianity is that it attempts to subjugate Reason to Faith. The Doctrine of the Corruption of Human Reason is one of the greatest trajedies to have befallen our race. Reason is the gift that God and the Creation have given us, in order that we can better understand that Creation, and through the creation better undestand God Him/it/herself.
Reason, for me, denies faith in the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurection, the ascension, hell, heaven, most of the letters of Paul, the doctrine of transubstantiation, the doctrine of the two swords (which we are seeing played out in our politics right now), the eden story, Jericho, and so much more in the factually challenged and contradiction filled Biblical "Word of God'.
Focus on the moral lessons Jesus taught, applied to daily living, and remove all the mysticism and mythology... and that is a Christianity I can (and do) believe in.
As I said, Matthew Tindal describes Christian Deism much better than I, and he did it in 1730.
Now, unlike many Deists, I still believe in the importance of faith, just not faith in the unreasonable. Not faith in that which reason denies. I have great faith in my fellow man, and the future of our race. I have great faith in my fiancee's love for me. I have great faith that, someday, reason and science will lead us to a better understanding of God and Universal purpose. And I have great faith that what is important is not necessarily the answers, but the quest in search of the answers.
All of these items of faith are not denied by my Reason. In fact, they work hand in hand toghether. Subjugating one to the other, or even going to the extreme as some Christians do and denying the validity of all human reason has cost our race the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Reformation, the Inquisition, and so many other unreasonable trajedies... all brought about by unbalenced faith.
Reason without Faith is cold.... But Faith without Reason is blind.
Reason and Respect in all you say and do,
David Pyle
Galveston Island, Republic of Texas
Once again, this is a "where to begin" moment. I will try not to be as long as I usually am. :jiggy:
To start off with, I think you need to define what you mean by Christianity... You see, I believe in most of the teachings of that Galilean Mystic that we have come to call Jesus. Honor God, Treat others as you want to be treated, Learn from your mistakes, and avoid hypocrisy in your life.
To me, this part of my Deism. Some have called me a Christian Deist because I integrate the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth along with those of Marcus Aurelius, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, Plato, and so many other philosophers.
For a great look at Christian Deism, I would recommend "Christianity as Old as the Creation" by Matthew Tindal.
http://dynamicdeism.org/library/christianity_as_old_as_the_creat.htm
Jesus of Nazareth was one of the greatest moral philosophers of all time. I simply do not accept the mythology that has been placed around his life. He was only the "Son of God" in the sense that we all are the sons and daughters of God. I do not accept the Ressurection and Ascension, as they do not pass the test of reason.
And I believe that Paul was an epileptic neurotic opportunist who hijacked what was a great religious and philosophical movement and perverted it. Today's Christians are not followers of Jesus, but followers of Paul. The true followers of Jesus became pharisees of the Temple and were the original impetus behind what is now Reformed Judeism.
I also do not accept that the Bible is the word of God. It is full of too many factual errors, contradictions, and principles that do not fit into todays world. I beleive that if God were to leave his word for us, it would be timeless, able for all to percieve (whether or not they can read) and would not be subject to centuries of mistranslation.
I believe that word does exist, and it is the one thing that we know God authored himself. I believe that the Word of God is not the Bible, but rather the creation itself.
If you want to read God's word, go look at the intricate nature of a leaf, or study the majesties of the cosmos. Science is not against the Word of God, but rather the ultimate study of that Word.
But I digress... sorry... I know, makes for long posts...
However, my biggest problem with modern Paulist Christianity is that it attempts to subjugate Reason to Faith. The Doctrine of the Corruption of Human Reason is one of the greatest trajedies to have befallen our race. Reason is the gift that God and the Creation have given us, in order that we can better understand that Creation, and through the creation better undestand God Him/it/herself.
Reason, for me, denies faith in the virgin birth, the miracles, the resurection, the ascension, hell, heaven, most of the letters of Paul, the doctrine of transubstantiation, the doctrine of the two swords (which we are seeing played out in our politics right now), the eden story, Jericho, and so much more in the factually challenged and contradiction filled Biblical "Word of God'.
Focus on the moral lessons Jesus taught, applied to daily living, and remove all the mysticism and mythology... and that is a Christianity I can (and do) believe in.
As I said, Matthew Tindal describes Christian Deism much better than I, and he did it in 1730.
Now, unlike many Deists, I still believe in the importance of faith, just not faith in the unreasonable. Not faith in that which reason denies. I have great faith in my fellow man, and the future of our race. I have great faith in my fiancee's love for me. I have great faith that, someday, reason and science will lead us to a better understanding of God and Universal purpose. And I have great faith that what is important is not necessarily the answers, but the quest in search of the answers.
All of these items of faith are not denied by my Reason. In fact, they work hand in hand toghether. Subjugating one to the other, or even going to the extreme as some Christians do and denying the validity of all human reason has cost our race the Dark Ages, the Crusades, the Reformation, the Inquisition, and so many other unreasonable trajedies... all brought about by unbalenced faith.
Reason without Faith is cold.... But Faith without Reason is blind.
Reason and Respect in all you say and do,
David Pyle
Galveston Island, Republic of Texas
The Voice of Reason
Doctor of Thinkology
Long post? Balderdash. I read every word of it, and I barely did two loads of laundry before the halfway point.
I think I like much of your eclectic view of God. Mostly the part that comes from the philosophers.
TVOR
I think I like much of your eclectic view of God. Mostly the part that comes from the philosophers.
TVOR
Hope
Princesinha
I have been away for awhile, so am just now reading all the replies to my question--thanx to everyone for your honesty. :jam: Appreciate it!
Davidium, those are some very interesting views you hold. Thanks for sharing. But if I may, I would like to disagree respectfully with some things you said. Reason is definitely important--I won't deny its worth. But I also don't think it is the end all and be all. If I sound crazy, so be it, but I believe there is much in our experience of what we call life that cannot be explained through reason alone. Or reason at all. And I think that's why faith is so key--it goes beyond reason. I'm not talking about totally ignorant, blind faith. I wouldn't jump off a building just because I have faith I can fly--that's just plain stupidity. I've said it before, but having faith does not mean leaving your brains behind in exchange. God doesn't want us to be stupid. I think there is a time and place for reason, and a time and place for faith. They don't necessarily have to cancel each other out.
I see it this way--we are beings composed in three parts: mind (or soul), body, and spirit. The mind is what we reason with. It is what we use to understand the world around us. However, the mind, no matter how brilliant it may be, is still very limited in what it can truly understand. It is meant to comprehend the physical realm--that which we see, hear, taste, smell, etc. Then we have the spirit. The spirit is always fun to talk about, because it sounds so vague, and we can't really define it. But, there we go, that's our mind talking! Our mind gets frustrated--well, at least mine does!--because it can't 'pin' the spirit down, or subject it to the comfortable areas of reason and logic. But the spirit is what we are actually exercising and using when we have faith. We tap into another whole realm and dimension that our minds alone simply cannot grasp. The more we exercise our faith, the more we are becoming spiritually alive. But, if one does not believe we are spiritual beings, then nothing I have said matters. It all depends on whether one believes in the spiritual realm in the first place.
Anyway, that is my two cents. Thanks again for sharing....
Davidium, those are some very interesting views you hold. Thanks for sharing. But if I may, I would like to disagree respectfully with some things you said. Reason is definitely important--I won't deny its worth. But I also don't think it is the end all and be all. If I sound crazy, so be it, but I believe there is much in our experience of what we call life that cannot be explained through reason alone. Or reason at all. And I think that's why faith is so key--it goes beyond reason. I'm not talking about totally ignorant, blind faith. I wouldn't jump off a building just because I have faith I can fly--that's just plain stupidity. I've said it before, but having faith does not mean leaving your brains behind in exchange. God doesn't want us to be stupid. I think there is a time and place for reason, and a time and place for faith. They don't necessarily have to cancel each other out.
I see it this way--we are beings composed in three parts: mind (or soul), body, and spirit. The mind is what we reason with. It is what we use to understand the world around us. However, the mind, no matter how brilliant it may be, is still very limited in what it can truly understand. It is meant to comprehend the physical realm--that which we see, hear, taste, smell, etc. Then we have the spirit. The spirit is always fun to talk about, because it sounds so vague, and we can't really define it. But, there we go, that's our mind talking! Our mind gets frustrated--well, at least mine does!--because it can't 'pin' the spirit down, or subject it to the comfortable areas of reason and logic. But the spirit is what we are actually exercising and using when we have faith. We tap into another whole realm and dimension that our minds alone simply cannot grasp. The more we exercise our faith, the more we are becoming spiritually alive. But, if one does not believe we are spiritual beings, then nothing I have said matters. It all depends on whether one believes in the spiritual realm in the first place.
Anyway, that is my two cents. Thanks again for sharing....
Irenicas
high overlord of sod all
My major problem with Christianity? The inability to accept that they might not be right. Just because you believe something wholeheartedly doesn't mean that it becomes absolute truth. This is one reason I am a Buddhist. For example, when European traders landed in Japan, and tried to convert the Buddhist population, the Buddhists were quite happy to say that their God existed, no worrys. In fact, the only problem the majority could find with a new testament image of Christianity was that you only got one life. Apart from that they were quite happy with it. My view is that as it stands, it's fair enough, but it hasn't really been thought through properly.
Actually, I guess that's my major problem with it. The Christian faith as a whole feels a little... well, juvanile. It's almost like a grouchy teenager mooching around and complaining about everything, whilst being absolutely sure they're right, and not really listening to what other people are saying, and occasionally going "It's not fair!" Kevin and Perry style. In my mind, all the other religions are sitting there shaking their heads going "well, they'll grow out of it, I'm sure". It just feels, undeveloped. Fair enough as far as it goes but not really devastatingly well thought out.
Actually, I guess that's my major problem with it. The Christian faith as a whole feels a little... well, juvanile. It's almost like a grouchy teenager mooching around and complaining about everything, whilst being absolutely sure they're right, and not really listening to what other people are saying, and occasionally going "It's not fair!" Kevin and Perry style. In my mind, all the other religions are sitting there shaking their heads going "well, they'll grow out of it, I'm sure". It just feels, undeveloped. Fair enough as far as it goes but not really devastatingly well thought out.
My biggest turn off to Christianity is that it is a religion that stresses that "God" is to be feared, that he is not to be questioned, and that he is perfect, yet the Bible does nothing but show that he has as weak a character as any man (that he is jealous, judgemental, controlling, etc.).Hope said:What is the biggest turnoff, to those of you who aren't Christians, to Christianity? What specifically leads you not to believe in it?
It is the religion that "got there first, and wants to capitalize on its exposure". Too many people have used Christianity for personal gain. The Christian Church is not an institution, it is a business. Christian pastors are businessmen. Out of all religions it is the one that most forgot exactly what it was preaching, and professes to be the most righteous.
Davidium
Active Member
Hope,
Thank you for your comments... and in a small way we agree. I also believe in the importance of Faith in opening the spiritual side of our nature. This is where I disagree with many of my fellow Deists...
What I do not agree with is the subjugation of Reason to Faith. Faith should never require you to believe that which simply does not make sense, as many of the mythological propositions around the life of Jesus of Nazareth simply do not make sense to me.
That does not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is much of great moral value in the teaching of Jesus. I ask this question... which is more important, that you live a moral life that accords with the basic teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or that you accept as fact the mythology behind his life?
To me, it is most important how you live, not the mythology you believe. A person who follows the teachings of Jesus, but has never heard of the ascension is (to me) just as much a follower of Jesus as the most rabid evangelical.
More to the point, how many "Christians" have you met who talk the talk, say they believe in all the mythology of Jesus, but then do not live the life? I have met many... and I would then argue that the moral man who honors God, follows the "golden rule" and avoids hypocrisy in his life is more a follower of Jesus than those who believe the mythology, but do not live the life.
In the short time that I attended a Christian Seminary, I came to realize that we are replacing the simple, pure truisms Jesus taught with the mythology that has grown up around his life. I choose the philosophy over the mythology.
It is action that is important, not belief.
Faith is important, but to me it must be subordinate to Reason. Faith is a tool that aids Reason. Reason illuminates Faith. The two are not polar opposites... and in my life I put Reason in the primary position.
Reason and Respect in all you say and do,
David Pyle
Thank you for your comments... and in a small way we agree. I also believe in the importance of Faith in opening the spiritual side of our nature. This is where I disagree with many of my fellow Deists...
What I do not agree with is the subjugation of Reason to Faith. Faith should never require you to believe that which simply does not make sense, as many of the mythological propositions around the life of Jesus of Nazareth simply do not make sense to me.
That does not mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is much of great moral value in the teaching of Jesus. I ask this question... which is more important, that you live a moral life that accords with the basic teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or that you accept as fact the mythology behind his life?
To me, it is most important how you live, not the mythology you believe. A person who follows the teachings of Jesus, but has never heard of the ascension is (to me) just as much a follower of Jesus as the most rabid evangelical.
More to the point, how many "Christians" have you met who talk the talk, say they believe in all the mythology of Jesus, but then do not live the life? I have met many... and I would then argue that the moral man who honors God, follows the "golden rule" and avoids hypocrisy in his life is more a follower of Jesus than those who believe the mythology, but do not live the life.
In the short time that I attended a Christian Seminary, I came to realize that we are replacing the simple, pure truisms Jesus taught with the mythology that has grown up around his life. I choose the philosophy over the mythology.
It is action that is important, not belief.
Faith is important, but to me it must be subordinate to Reason. Faith is a tool that aids Reason. Reason illuminates Faith. The two are not polar opposites... and in my life I put Reason in the primary position.
Reason and Respect in all you say and do,
David Pyle
Scott1
Well-Known Member
My biggest turnoff?
To quote/copy my good pal Maize:
Pax Christi,
Scott
To quote/copy my good pal Maize:
So very true, unfortunately. We live in a society that sometimes rewards you for how clever you are and not how charitable or nice one may be, and Christians tend to jump up on that high horse and start preaching before looking into someones heart and loving the person before preaching to them.
Pax Christi,
Scott
Hope
Princesinha
You know what? You are absolutely right!huajiro said:
And It saddens me to no end that this is what so many non-Christians see when they look at Christianity. It almost makes me want to cry. To me being a Christian has nothing to do with an institution or a business, and all those that make it to be so, are doing Christ a great disservice. And as far as forgetting what we're preaching--well, you hit the nail on the head. I think one of the greatest tragedies in the church as a whole these days is the lack of integrity and honesty. Why must we pretend? Who do we think we are fooling? A God-filled Christian is not one who never makes mistakes or sins--a God-filled Christian is one who is transparent and honest before God and others, even if it means admitting sins and weaknesses. I understand totally why you think as you do--can't say I blame you. But I do want to assure you at the same time, that there are some amazing Christians out there, who actually walk the walk, and live what they believe. It's these people that give me hope, and encourage me in my own walk, despite all the corruption I see in the majority of Christendom.