Bigotry: Yes or No? Dawkins and Voting for a Mormon

[Katzpur]

So you beat Catholics and Protestants but not Jews or atheists. Looks like a 50/50 split of being 'more highly educated than other religious groups'.

You do realize that Catholics and Protestants make up a much larger number of people than Jews and atheists in this country, right?

I believe it was Marilyn vos Savant who said, "Be able to analyze statistics, which can be used to support or undercut almost any argument." But seriously, comparing the Catholic and Protestant population to the Jewish and atheist population as a 50-50 split?

 

[Sir Doom]

The statistic still shows that LDS are on average better educated than more than half of other Americans.

And more than 40% of other Mormons. What's your point? That doesn't prove the prejudicial statement that Apex made is valid.

More likely the rest of Utah is bringing the LDS average down. Two LDS I know are both highly qualified molecular biologists, and one specializes in evolution genetics.

I know a guy that can fit 2 baseballs in his mouth. Are you going to start proving the prejudicial comment that Apex made to be non-prejudicial yet?

You do realize that Catholics and Protestants make up a much larger number of people than Jews and atheists in this country, right?

So what? That still doesn't prove the prejudicial statement that Apex made is valid. It proves it false, in fact.

So, it is fine to make bigoted statements about a religious affiliation but it is biased to present data to the contrary? Who exactly is being anti-reason and anti-science here?

What are you talking about? I said in no uncertain terms from the very start, Dawkins' comments were, in fact, bigoted. Then I went on to say that Apex's comment was ALSO bigoted.

Have you been reading this thread at all? It kind of seems like you haven't been.

With friends like you ...

Yeah, no doubt.

Don't be sorry. The stats mentioned other religious groups specifically, and most were lower than the LDS.

Most eh? Well, that's a bit different than 'any other religious group'. Oops.

And just what makes you think that the LDS are "anti-science"?

I didn't say anything about Mormons being anti-science. Apex said they were 'less anti-science' than 'any other religious group'. You offered these stats here as some kind of proof that his statement is true. So you tell me where it says anything about anti-science anywhere in any of those stats. It doesn't say a thing about it. So his statement is equally false now after you posted those stats as it was when I first pointed it out. Would you like to make some more baseless accusations?

Don't worry about how to break it to me. As a Mormon living in Utah, I am well-aware of the fact that Utah is not completely Mormon. It's interesting how quick people are to forget this when pointing out some of the negatives about Utah -- the rate of anti-depressant usage, for instance. Somehow that always gets tied back to the Mormon Church.

You are the one who presented the stats. Are you saying now that it was a mistake? You probably should, since it was.

7th place out of 50 isn't exactly bad.

You're right, it isn't bad. And if Apex had said something like, "Utah is a pretty highly educated state." This stat would prove him correct. Unfortunately that isn't what he said, is it?

And again, what makes you think that Mormons are "anti-science"? That's the question I'd really like answered.

NOTHING MAKES ME THINK THAT. I DO NOT THINK THAT. WHO THE FLYING HELL TOLD YOU I THINK THAT?

Not when you consider how many Americans are either Catholic or Protestant.

Again, doesn't matter. If Apex had said, "Mormons are statistically more likely to go to college than Catholics or Protestants." This statistic would be proving him correct. But that isn't what he said.

And for the third time, what makes you think that Mormons are "anti-science"?

NOTHING AT ALL.

Since you are clearly biased against it, I'd say we just agree to drop the subject.

Stop reading things into what I'm saying. I'm not attacking Mormons AT ALL. I don't have anything against Mormons. A significant portion of my family is Mormon. I love them all and they are brilliant as any other human on this planet. Stop acting like I've said ANYTHING against the Mormon Church. I called Apex's comment prejudicial and I called you biased for thinking those stats proved his comment correct when in fact they did the opposite.

Show me anything I've said against your church. One single solitary thing. Anything at all. All of my comments have been about what Apex said and what you said in response. Stop jumping at shadows.

Be my guest.

You'll have to take a few things back first.

 

[Sir Doom]

I believe it was Marilyn vos Savant who said, "Be able to analyze statistics, which can be used to support or undercut almost any argument." But seriously, comparing the Catholic and Protestant population to the Jewish and atheist population as a 50-50 split?

2 religious groups you beat.
2 religious groups you don't beat.

Apex's comment was not about the number of people in any given group. It was about the groups themselves. Thus, my comparison was as well. 2 on either side is 50/50. It doesn't matter how many people are in each group.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, that's exactly what people are doing when they make a blanket statement or generalization that Mormons are "anti-science."

I've never made such a claim. Sure some Mormons are anti-science, some aren't. But then again what religion doesn't have people like that?

I'll be sure to point that out the next time somebody mentions that Utah supposedly has the highest internet porn usage of any state -- a fact that people just love to tie to the fact that Utah is roughly 2/3 Mormon and consequently sexually repressed. Let's keep the playing field level here. If we can draw a correlation between the high percentage of Mormons and Utah's unfavorable statistics, we ought to be able to draw a correlation between that same population and the state's favorable statistics.

If you want. I just see people as people first, everything else second. I don't know much about Utah law or how the culture is there regarding sexuality, but if it's oppressive then that would likely be why it has a high internet porn usage. Although it would have been a religious oriented community that brought upon such social disapproval or any legislation that would ban certain adult items.

 

[s2a]

A recent quote from Richard Dawkins and his twitter in reference to the Curiosity landing:



So, is it bigotry, or not, to claim that half of Americans are worthy of condemnation simply because they are considering voting for a Mormon?

Well, to be fair to Dawkins, he played few favorites in mocking any adherents of religious perspectives. Mormons weren't particularly favored targets of his... no more so than most others anyway...

...and secondly...again to be fair to Dawkins, he was not "condemning half of Americans", he was expressing his incredulous perspective that half of America would consider voting for a candidate that espoused LDS claims beliefs.

But trust me, Dawkins held nearly all religious claims in equal contempt, mockery, and ridicule...

...so try not to take it too hard personally

 

[Tbone]

A recent quote from Richard Dawkins and his twitter in reference to the Curiosity landing:



So, is it bigotry, or not, to claim that half of Americans are worthy of condemnation simply because they are considering voting for a Mormon?

Much better to vote for a Pro-American-Mormon than an Anti-American-Moron...ya think>

 

[Storm]

IF Dawkins thinks Romney is unqualified simply because he's a Mormon, that's bigotry. IF he truly believes that 'half the country' is insane because they might vote for a Mormon, it's bigotry. This is what the quote says to me.

However, the undertone is more what Father Heathen was talking about. Dawkins does harp (rightly so) on the anti-science portion of the population (though I seriously doubt it comprises 'half the country.)

In the end, I think it's bigotry founded on valid concern. I once knew a white girl who'd been raped by a black man, resulting in deep and unapologetic racism. This is much the same in my book.

Oh, and just so my feelings are absolutely clear: if ANY of the population refused to vote for a candidate purely based on religious affiliation? THAT would be bald-faced bigotry!

 

[Katzpur]

NOTHING MAKES ME THINK THAT. I DO NOT THINK THAT. WHO THE FLYING HELL TOLD YOU I THINK THAT?

I just noticed that you mentioned it three times in one post and your implication was clear. At any rate, I have no more to say to you on the subject.

 

[Sir Doom]

I just noticed that you mentioned it three times in one post and your implication was clear. At any rate, I have no more to say to you on the subject.

That's fine. I have a bit more to say to you, though.

Please follow the chain of events.

Apex said Mormons are less anti-science than other religious groups.

I said that statement is prejudicial.

You offered these stats as proof that his comment was not prejudicial.

There is nothing in those stats talking about the relative anti-science of any group at all. Thus, these stats do not support his comment.

The fact that I don't think Mormons are superior does not mean that I think they are inferior. That's a straw man argument. I never said Mormons were anti-science. I never intended to say Mormons were anti-science. I never implied Mormons were anti-science and I never intended to imply Mormons were anti-science. I do not believe Mormons are anti-science therefore it would be stupid for me to attempt to convey that message. Least of all to a couple of LDS who I was just reprimanding for being prejudiced. That would be pretty hypocritical, wouldn't it? Almost as hypocritical as making a thread about Richard Dawkins' comments against Mormons and then backing it up with prejudicial comments about the superiority of Mormons right afterwards. Good thing I'm neither stupid nor a hypocrite.

Feel free to apologize for your baseless accusations anytime. I guess I'll be waiting quite awhile though. I have high doubts you even recognize that you are in the wrong here, let alone have the guts to admit it and take it back.

 

[jasonwill2]

I've supported Dawkins many times in the past, and I agreed with his statements right up until his mentioning of "voting for a Mormon."

Mormon =/= anti-science
Mormon =/= creationism

C'mon, Dawkins. Not cool, man.

Dawkins has always been a dogmatic, ignorant, and bigoted anti-theist. Why should this be news to anyone? He hurts atheists more than helps them I would think, coming off more intense then any Fundamentalist I have ever met.

Actually, he's one of the most intensely dogmatic people I have ever had the unfortunate pleasure of reading or hearing. An old record of a 1970's Baptist preacher, and Peter H. Gilmore (High Priest of the Church of Satan) being two others to mention in fairness.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Dawkins has always been a dogmatic, ignorant, and bigoted anti-theist. Why should this be news to anyone? He hurts atheists more than helps them I would think, coming off more intense then any Fundamentalist I have ever met.

Actually, he's one of the most intensely dogmatic people I have ever had the unfortunate pleasure of reading or hearing. An old record of a 1970's Baptist preacher, and Peter H. Gilmore (High Priest of the Church of Satan) being two others to mention in fairness.

It's seems to be quite rare when someone who isn't a Christian has the same thoughts as I do regarding Dawkins.

 

[jasonwill2]

It's seems to be quite rare when someone who isn't a Christian has the same thoughts as I do regarding Dawkins.

Well I'm a Satanist, so any unfair accusation (actually slander here as it is false) is fair game to accuse

 

[Watchmen]

That's fine. I have a bit more to say to you, though.

Please follow the chain of events.

Apex said Mormons are less anti-science than other religious groups.

I said that statement is prejudicial.

You offered these stats as proof that his comment was not prejudicial.

There is nothing in those stats talking about the relative anti-science of any group at all. Thus, these stats do not support his comment.

The fact that I don't think Mormons are superior does not mean that I think they are inferior. That's a straw man argument. I never said Mormons were anti-science. I never intended to say Mormons were anti-science. I never implied Mormons were anti-science and I never intended to imply Mormons were anti-science. I do not believe Mormons are anti-science therefore it would be stupid for me to attempt to convey that message. Least of all to a couple of LDS who I was just reprimanding for being prejudiced. That would be pretty hypocritical, wouldn't it? Almost as hypocritical as making a thread about Richard Dawkins' comments against Mormons and then backing it up with prejudicial comments about the superiority of Mormons right afterwards. Good thing I'm neither stupid nor a hypocrite.

Feel free to apologize for your baseless accusations anytime. I guess I'll be waiting quite awhile though. I have high doubts you even recognize that you are in the wrong here, let alone have the guts to admit it and take it back.

Is your obtuse behavior intentional? The stats relate to education, which by implication goes to the issue of science vs anti-science. Your claim was that Apex made a prejudicial statement. Katzpur used statistics to demonstrate Apex statement was based on truth, which means it wasn't prejudiced.

 

[9Westy9]

It's seems to be quite rare when someone who isn't a Christian has the same thoughts as I do regarding Dawkins.

We should start a club

 

[Sir Doom]

Is your obtuse behavior intentional? The stats relate to education, which by implication goes to the issue of science vs anti-science.

No. They do not imply anything about science vs. anti-science at all. You are reading that into it.

Your claim was that Apex made a prejudicial statement. Katzpur used statistics to demonstrate Apex statement was based on truth, which means it wasn't prejudiced.

Sorry, no. Katzpur used statistics as propaganda. I already demonstrated why those stats do not in any way reflect Apex's comments. Then I was called bigoted against Mormons despite my vehement defense of that particular religion on numerous occasions. The fact that you are all attempting to justify your own superiority really makes me shake my head. How can you not see the obvious blunder here? How can you not see the inequity of the statement?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No. They do not imply anything about science vs. anti-science at all. You are reading that into it.



Sorry, no. Katzpur used statistics as propaganda. I already demonstrated why those stats do not in any way reflect Apex's comments. Then I was called bigoted against Mormons despite my vehement defense of that particular religion on numerous occasions. The fact that you are all attempting to justify your own superiority really makes me shake my head. How can you not see the obvious blunder here? How can you not see the inequity of the statement?

Well, try not to take it so seriously, SD. Mormons have been attacked, typically, from all angles and from various religious and non-religious groups. They've been accused of not being Christian from other Christians, and they've been accused of being the worst kind of Christian from other religious practitioners. They've been the butt of late-night talk show hosts, editorials, blogs, etc., and many times they're just showing that they're not the awful, weird, fringe element that they're accused of being.

Not to say that I'd be a Mormon by choice, but I can sympathize with the attempt to show how cool, smart, and generous they are.

Remember, though, that in no way makes me perfect. I'll still giggle at the jokes, but then again, I laugh when my family trips over their own feet when I see they're not hurt. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

 

[Sir Doom]

Haha, well it only started out as a small correction. I figured it would just be one of those, "Oh yeah, I could have worded that better." I never actually considered that Apex actually thinks Mormons are superior. I mean, I'm not even sure that he does at this point. He hasn't said anything for awhile. I can tell Katzpur certainly thinks that, though. Its so amazingly weird that their defense is not, "That isn't what I meant." it's "It's not prejudice because Mormons ARE superior." I can't let a position like that go unchallenged.

Anyway, I do understand how much persecution Mormons have to deal with. I regularly defend them against that sort of nonsense. It makes this all the more hilarious really. I combat lies against the Mormon church all the time, and yet the one time I combat a lie that goes for it, I'm treated like an enemy.

I don't really think of it as 'serious' though. It's just the internet after all. I just don't let things go until they are resolved or completely ignored. I'm sure it'll be the latter in this case.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, try not to take it so seriously, SD. Mormons have been attacked, typically, from all angles and from various religious and non-religious groups. They've been accused of not being Christian from other Christians, and they've been accused of being the worst kind of Christian from other religious practitioners. They've been the butt of late-night talk show hosts, editorials, blogs, etc., and many times they're just showing that they're not the awful, weird, fringe element that they're accused of being.

Lastly, they've been "paraphrased" so creatively that they often have a hard time even seeing the corelation between what they actually said and what they supposedly said. They're used it, though. After awhile, they just learn to ignore it.

 

[Apex]

Haha, well it only started out as a small correction. I figured it would just be one of those, "Oh yeah, I could have worded that better." I never actually considered that Apex actually thinks Mormons are superior. I mean, I'm not even sure that he does at this point. He hasn't said anything for awhile. I can tell Katzpur certainly thinks that, though. Its so amazingly weird that their defense is not, "That isn't what I meant." it's "It's not prejudice because Mormons ARE superior." I can't let a position like that go unchallenged.

Anyway, I do understand how much persecution Mormons have to deal with. I regularly defend them against that sort of nonsense. It makes this all the more hilarious really. I combat lies against the Mormon church all the time, and yet the one time I combat a lie that goes for it, I'm treated like an enemy.

I don't really think of it as 'serious' though. It's just the internet after all. I just don't let things go until they are resolved or completely ignored. I'm sure it'll be the latter in this case.

I never implied Mormons are superior. I merely said Mormons are more likely to have more education than your average person. The statistics support this. And I do not think it is too much of a stretch to say that the more education you have, the less likely you are "anti-science". The Church itself enforces this by having no official position on issues like evolution. Allowing members to decide for themselves on if they accept it or not.

 

[idav]

I never implied Mormons are superior. I merely said Mormons are more likely to have more education than your average person. The statistics support this. And I do not think it is too much of a stretch to say that the more education you have, the less likely you are "anti-science". The Church itself enforces this by having no official position on issues like evolution. Allowing members to decide for themselves on if they accept it or not.

Despite the fact that Mormons don't take an official stance, they are majority Republican which will likely reflect on issues like abortion or gay marriage, just like the current candidates.