Bigotry: Yes or No? Dawkins and Voting for a Mormon

[DeepShadow]

I'm wondering how this topic got into debating what is Mormon Doctrine and what isn't. I still maintain that not voting for someone just because of his faith, personal beliefs, lack of faith in any god, and so on and so forth isn't fair to the candidate. It is just as bad as not voting for someone because of ethnic group or sexual orientation. As I said earlier, it's how you agree with the person on various issues that matters.

I believe the two issues are, in fact, deeply related: people justify their bigotry based on the idea that all Mormons believe absurd things. If those things are not things that all Mormons believe, then it becomes apparent that this is merely an excuse for closed-mindedness.

 

[DeepShadow]

Someone's faith says something about their knowledge about the world around them. For example a Young Earth creationist or literalist for president could be very bad if he quoted scripture to show that after the great flood, Earth would no longer be cursed by God, therefore we have nothing to fear from climate change.

Agreed. This is an example of what I was talking about earlier--wait and see how his beliefs affect his actions, and then vote. Under your example above, I would vote against such a person.

You may find this example unrealistic or ridiculous, but an actual congress member said this! In a hearing about climate change!! He got his Bible out and quoted it and nobody had him restrained and put in a mental institution!!! Nobody even laughed out loud!!!!

I certainly would have laughed. Putting him in a mental institution is a little extreme, but I would have laughed my head off.

The western world, and especially the U.S.A., is in deep crisis. I'm not talking about the financial one, but the theological one. It is so politically correct to believe in religion, and so politically incorrect to criticize such beliefs. Some beliefs are of course exempt from that political correctness - a presidential candidate claiming to believe in the Prophed Muhammad being God's true prophet, or a candidate admitting he's an atheist, can just forget running for president.

Agreed. As I said earlier, I'd vote for an atheist if I agreed with his policies, and I'll speak out against every state in the nation that would forbid an atheist from holding public office.

I think that a president actually believing in magical underwear, and that Jesus will run his new kingdom from U.S. mainland, and that they will get a planet when they die, is a major problem!

Indeed. Fortunately, these are not canonical LDS beliefs, but caricatures. What a relief!

As long as delusion is defined as "a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary", then all religious beliefs are, per definition delusions.

Wow, way to bait and switch. You have successfully proven that the medical health diagnosis for delusions is not taken from a dictionary. For which we are all grateful.

And I think that having a delusional president is a big problem, and their delusions should be called out and discussed and ridiculed whenever possible.

Tell me, do you believe the U.S. has ever had a great leader? Because this test for a "delusional president" would reject every great leader that I can think of.

 

[ChristineES]

Someone's faith says something about their knowledge about the world around them. For example a Young Earth creationist or literalist for president could be very bad if he quoted scripture to show that after the great flood, Earth would no longer be cursed by God, therefore we have nothing to fear from climate change. You may find this example unrealistic or ridiculous, but an actual congress member said this! In a hearing about climate change!! He got his Bible out and quoted it and nobody had him restrained and put in a mental institution!!! Nobody even laughed out loud!!!!

The western world, and especially the U.S.A., is in deep crisis. I'm not talking about the financial one, but the theological one. It is so politically correct to believe in religion, and so politically incorrect to criticize such beliefs. Some beliefs are of course exempt from that political correctness - a presidential candidate claiming to believe in the Prophed Muhammad being God's true prophet, or a candidate admitting he's an atheist, can just forget running for president.

I think that a president actually believing in magical underwear, and that Jesus will run his new kingdom from U.S. mainland, and that they will get a planet when they die, is a major problem!

As long as delusion is defined as "a belief held with strong conviction despite superior evidence to the contrary", then all religious beliefs are, per definition delusions.

And I think that having a delusional president is a big problem, and their delusions should be called out and discussed and ridiculed whenever possible.

Someone believing in YEC doesn't really determine how they will fix the budget, how they will stimulate the economy and many other issues like that. On top of that, if I were to say that a Mormon is delusional, then what does that say about me? I am a Christian as well, and although I don't believe everything Mormons believe, some people might see me as delusional as well. If I were to say a different religion, such as Hinduism, is delusional, that would make me a hypocrite, as well. If I were to say that an atheist isn't a good candidate, that would also make me a hypocrite especially if I agree with the person on many issues. If a person agrees with most of what I believe in as far as issues go, what they believe or don't believe, regarding God, has no bearing on how I vote.

Theists are more than just their faith and atheists are more than just their non-belief in God. We all have many facets. I don't see a candidate having faith as a problem unless they start proselytizing their faith at the podium, and none of that candidates have done so, that I've seen (outside of a few quips here and there and when they do that, they don't get away with it).

 

[DeepShadow]

Mormonism 101: FAQ

Mormon newsroom has a great answer to the "get your own planet" nonsense.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

A recent quote from Richard Dawkins and his twitter in reference to the Curiosity landing:



So, is it bigotry, or not, to claim that half of Americans are worthy of condemnation simply because they are considering voting for a Mormon?

I can see where he is coming from. I don't know if I would call it pure bigotry because he has logical reasons behind it.

1) He has found that Mormon beliefs are so laughably incorrect that it is only possible for idiots or those with poor judgement to believe in them.

2) He wants his elected officials to be intelligent with good judgement.

3) Ergo a Mormon wouldn't fit his description of intelligent or having good judgement.

I suppose the assumption that it would require a lack of intelligence to believe something would be a form of prejudice or bigotry. But beyond that base assumption no.

Also just because something is bigotry doesn't mean that the opinion is unfounded or wrong.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It's not a good sign when people don't care whether or not their leader is actually knowledgeable and intellectually honest, but is it really bigoted to not want someone so woefully ignorant to be in such a high position of power and responsibility?

Sorry for the snip.

 

[shawn001]

Is religious intolerance bigotry?

 

[LuisDantas]

Is religious intolerance bigotry?

Yes. Or at least they are closely related, don't you think?

 

[shawn001]

Yes and just pointing that out.

 

[Katzpur]

I can see where he is coming from. I don't know if I would call it pure bigotry because he has logical reasons behind it.

1) He has found that Mormon beliefs are so laughably incorrect that it is only possible for idiots or those with poor judgement to believe in them.

2) He wants his elected officials to be intelligent with good judgement.

3) Ergo a Mormon wouldn't fit his description of intelligent or having good judgement.

And his whole premise falls flat on its face when you look at the number of Mormons who have been extremely successful in politics and business. How do you get to be the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation by being stupid and lacking in good judgment? How do you become a tenured faculty member at an Ivy League university if you're an idiot?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And his whole premise falls flat on its face when you look at the number of Mormons who have been extremely successful in politics and business. How do you get to be the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation by being stupid and lacking in good judgment? How do you become a tenured faculty member at an Ivy League university if you're an idiot?

In the case of Romney, you're talking about the guy who drove cross-country with his dog on the roof of his car, so it may be justified to say that he doesn't exercise good judgement consistently... though for reasons unrelated to his religion.

 

[Revoltingest]

In the case of Romney, you're talking about the guy who drove cross-country with his dog on the roof of his car, so it may be justified to say that he doesn't exercise good judgement consistently... though for reasons unrelated to his religion.

For reference....
Mitt Romney dog incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've done far more things which are at least as dumb as that.
(I didn't become perfect overnite.)
This seems hollow criticism, but if you believe it significant,
would Obama's & Biden's personal histories survive such scrutiny?

 

[LuisDantas]

For reference....
Mitt Romney dog incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've done far more things which are at least as dumb as that.
(I didn't become perfect overnite.)
This seems hollow criticism, but if you believe it significant,
would Obama's & Biden's personal histories survive such scrutiny?

Actually I do, although it is probably hollow criticism.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually I do, although it is probably hollow criticism.

Woo hoo....partial detente!

 

[LuisDantas]

To clarify, I do believe Obama and Biden would survive such scrutinity (heck, I think they did already). Not necessarily that it is a significant thing that they do.

 

[Revoltingest]

To clarify, I do believe Obama and Biden would survive such scrutinity (heck, I think they did already). Not necessarily that it is a significant thing that they do.

Biden has his numerous gaffes, & Obama has his illegal drug buying.
But just as with the Romney dog's rooftop ride, none of those things affect my vote.

 

[LuisDantas]

Biden has his numerous gaffes,

Can't say I heard a lot about them. Then again, I never heard of Mitt Romney's dog before this thread either.

& Obama has his illegal drug buying.

Never heard of that, which is surprising, seeing how I keep hearing about his being a secret Kenyan Muslim that somehow made Muslim prayer mandatory in Washington.

But just as with the Romney dog's rooftop ride, none of those things affect my vote.

Illegal drug buying would affect mine. If the opponent were not a Rep, at least.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can't say I heard a lot about them. Then again, I never heard of Mitt Romney's dog before this thread either.

Perhaps that's cuz you're too wise to pay attention to all the niggling little criticisms candidates launch at each other.

Never heard of that, which is surprising, seeing how I keep hearing about his being a secret Kenyan Muslim that somehow made Muslim prayer mandatory in Washington.

Perhaps because illegal drug use is so widespread, that criticism of it carries little weight.
So they made up something more fun & inflammatory.

Illegal drug buying would affect mine.

Really? We, here in USAistan, generally aren't bothered by someone buying a little boo for personal use.

 

[LuisDantas]

Really? We, here in USAistan, generally aren't bothered by someone buying a little boo for personal use.

I know. I learned of that last year. I am busy enough accepting that it is so. I will not be easily convinced to emulate that example.

In my mind, anyone who uses recreational drugs is not to be considered as a manager of any kind. Or as a close relationship of any kind, really.

Edited to add: and that is one of the reasons why I often describe myself as "nearly an atheistic Mormon"... what a sincronicity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

For reference....
Mitt Romney dog incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I've done far more things which are at least as dumb as that.
(I didn't become perfect overnite.)
This seems hollow criticism, but if you believe it significant,
would Obama's & Biden's personal histories survive such scrutiny?

Certainly not. For instance, Obama's complicit in many extra-judicial killings of criminal suspects (in the best cases) and innocent people (in the worst). I consider even a single murder by drone to be much worse that strapping a dog to the roof of a car.

Anyhow, we aren't playing the "is Romney worse than Obama?" game, we're playing the "can someone rational enough to be a successful CEO be irrational in other areas of his life?" game.