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Biology, Politics, and the Left

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Of course we are, but can you name one species in which both sexes (for example) perform identical roles? And there are now, much more so in the last few decades, emerging examples of social culture, learned (and taught) behaviors etc...in many species of non-human animals. My point is that "equity" (rather than equality) has to take into account the reality of our biology and the manner in which our socio-cultural "norms" have evolved in response to our various socio-ecological environments...otherwise it becomes unrealistic and unachievable. Denying the real biological differences between male and female athletes (for example) doesn't make women more "equal" - for most of them it would simply deny them the opportunity for sporting success.

I consider sports to be more in the realm of entertainment, where nothing is equal. It's not a matter of life or death, nor is it even biological or "natural." It's a man-made spectacle. I was thinking more in terms of basic human rights.

But as a species we are still a very, very long way from that. I'm not saying we should abandon that goal, I'm just saying we have to be very realistic about where we are starting from...and also, we obviously cannot legislate against biology and should not legislate against cultural diversity...so we have to be very realistic about exactly what "equal rights before the law" means.

And with all that in mind, the point of the OP linked article was that the "political left" still seems to have its ideological roots in pre-Darwinian thought. I agree with that (at least to some degree). I think it is time for a re-evaluation of the foundations of a more realistic "socialism" that genuinely elevates the dignity (not just the economic fortunes) of the human family in all its glorious biological and cultural diversity.

Perhaps the left is thinking more in post-Darwinian terms, not pre-Darwinian. If we, as a society, wish to live according to a natural philosophy, then it's extremely problematic and complicated if we seek to pick and choose where we're going to be "natural" and where we're going to accept "artificiality." The real problem is in the ideological and moral contradictions inherent in attempting to embrace both social Darwinism and liberal humanism at the same time. We can't really have it both ways, as exemplified by what appears to be growing, widespread resistance to liberal humanism and progressivism. As a society, we either have to move forward or move backward, but maintaining the current status quo for its own sake is no longer a tenable position. That's obvious from the widespread political dissension we've been seeing lately.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It depends on what constitutes a "right", and which rights are adopted and protected by the political system at play. For example, if all have an equal right to the same quality educational environment, yet not all have equal potential to maximize that right to the same extent, there will still be a measurable inequity in education attained despite equal access.

To your example, equal rights under the law may be meaningless if there is not an equal ability in advocating for one's rights under the law.

Ultimately, a right is really just a claim which is generally agreed upon by members of a given society. As a result of the devastation caused by the World Wars, certain harsh lessons were learned which compelled the leaders of the world to agree upon a concept of "universal" human rights which have been used as the defining standard for differentiating "free" societies from those deemed "authoritarian" or "tyrannical."

For the nations which consider themselves part of the "free world," this is worn as a badge of honor and a source of enormous national pride. It's a boost to our shared national ego to consider ourselves more advanced, more progressive, and more enlightened than most other areas of the world considered "not free" or socially/technologically "backward."

I wouldn't say it's "meaningless," but words and phrases like "free," "equal," "democracy," "liberty and justice for all," etc. are mere approximations. They may exist in a figurative sense, but they can't be viewed as literally true. There are no "absolute" rights. There is no absolute freedom of speech, no absolute equality, no absolute democracy, and so on.

I just don't think that it's right that people be left on the streets to languish in homelessness and starve to death just because someone feels the need to prove a point about "biology" or natural law.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ultimately, a right is really just a claim which is generally agreed upon by members of a given society. As a result of the devastation caused by the World Wars, certain harsh lessons were learned which compelled the leaders of the world to agree upon a concept of "universal" human rights which have been used as the defining standard for differentiating "free" societies from those deemed "authoritarian" or "tyrannical."

For the nations which consider themselves part of the "free world," this is worn as a badge of honor and a source of enormous national pride. It's a boost to our shared national ego to consider ourselves more advanced, more progressive, and more enlightened than most other areas of the world considered "not free" or socially/technologically "backward."

I wouldn't say it's "meaningless," but words and phrases like "free," "equal," "democracy," "liberty and justice for all," etc. are mere approximations. They may exist in a figurative sense, but they can't be viewed as literally true. There are no "absolute" rights. There is no absolute freedom of speech, no absolute equality, no absolute democracy, and so on.

Well spoken. I agree.

I just don't think that it's right that people be left on the streets to languish in homelessness and starve to death just because someone feels the need to prove a point about "biology" or natural law.

Here I would ask whether acknowledging and admitting to biological facts or natural law leads one inexorably to think that people should be left on the streets to languish in homelessness and starve to death? Is it your position that denying, masking, or in some way obscuring facts regarding biology and natural law will prevent homelessness and starvation on the streets?
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Equal rights is similar to playing sports, where we all play by the same set of rules. In organized sports there are referees whose job it is to penalize violations so the rules are the fair and the same for all. In the rat race of life, we all play our best and on any given day there are winners and losers, with every dog having his day. Not everyone is going to be the MVP, since sports is only not a function of equal rights for all; one set of rules, but it is also a function of natural talent, hard work, and desire. In life it is more about the variable or those individuals that appear among the herd animals and rise above. In nature this equal but different is called the call of the wild and natural selection. After the mating Olympics the herds once again walks as allies.

Neither systemic racism or affirmative action had one set of rules for all. Equal rights were stolen from some people. In the sport of social life, natural talent, hard work and desire do not matter as much, when rights are stolen; two sets of rules. Luckily this is being corrected so we have equal rights and therefore one set of rules for all. Although one political leadership team still cheats and maintains a dual justice system; two sets of rules.

For example, one side is brought to trial for sexual assault and is fined, while the other side uses his buddies in the FBI to target and harass his accuser; operation Casandra, so she becomes the victim again and again; FBI gang bang with two sets of rules. It appears one side does not believe in equal rights, but rather two sets of rules with their binary rule system more favorable to their side and agenda.

This is slowly being corrected, but lingers since rights are still misunderstood by one party, due to the subjectivity of language and language games. I am try to clarify these games with simple neutral examples, that are not politically charged, since that can result in emotional thinking clouding reason, so the subjective language games, seem to make sense.

Using terms like 'stolen', 'cheating', 'gang bang' hardly seem like non-emotional and neutral terms though.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Here I would ask whether acknowledging and admitting to biological facts or natural law leads one inexorably to think that people should be left on the streets to languish in homelessness and starve to death? Is it your position that denying, masking, or in some way obscuring facts regarding biology and natural law will prevent homelessness and starvation on the streets?

That's not my position. It's the position of those who embrace natural law and insist upon political systems which extol "human nature" over more "artificial" concepts like social justice, fairness, and equality.

I never said anything about obscuring or denying biological facts, but if we, as a society, insist on embracing that as some kind of political treatise, then that will have consequences.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
I consider sports to be more in the realm of entertainment, where nothing is equal. It's not a matter of life or death, nor is it even biological or "natural." It's a man-made spectacle.
Not a matter of life and death? Nobody told these guys that...

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But seriously, as if that were not serious enough...in what sense are you suggesting that sport is not biological or natural?
Perhaps the left is thinking more in post-Darwinian terms, not pre-Darwinian. If we, as a society, wish to live according to a natural philosophy, then it's extremely problematic and complicated if we seek to pick and choose where we're going to be "natural" and where we're going to accept "artificiality."
Well of course you are conflating two common uses of the term "natural" here...in reality there is nothing "artificial" that does not conform to the "natural" laws by which the universe functions...
The real problem is in the ideological and moral contradictions inherent in attempting to embrace both social Darwinism and liberal humanism at the same time.
No, the real problem is the assumption that all social conventions are purely ideological and artificial (per Marx), designed by the powerful to subjugate the weak...the real problem is the failure to acknowledge that some of those conventions have grown out of our natural instinctive inclination to form groups and group hierarchies (just as many of our non-human evolutionary cousins do) and were not deliberately invented by some mythical "founder of civil society" and his ideological "progeny" to gain and preserve hegemony over his naïve and otherwise isolated and unpropertied "noble savage" contemporaries (per Rousseau).

We ARE a territorial animal - like many other territorial animals we are naturally inclined to defend our "territory" in order to protect the resources that are important to our survival (and the propagation of our genes)...our food, our mates, our "nest"...and we are especially vigorous in defending it against other members of our own species because, guess what, we all need the same things (more or less).

We ARE a "pack animal" and some of the hierarchical structures we so despise in our ultra-egalitarian 21st century sensibilities, unquestionably have their roots in the Darwinian naturally selective processes that have brought our species from hunter-gatherer to industrialization and beyond...they have their roots in the biological reality that for the vast majority of our 200,000 years as a species (not to mention the millions of years of our pre-human ancestry), life consisted of a daily struggle to survive that required us to work together in relatively small, tightknit, exclusive, territorial and mutually antagonistic groups in which social hierarchy was crucial to success.
We can't really have it both ways
We have to have it both ways at the same time because it IS both ways at the same time...that's the point...we (our societies) are a product of both natural selection and learned behavior...there is no "choosing" which one to "embrace" - we have to acknowledge both.
As a society, we either have to move forward or move backward, but maintaining the current status quo for its own sake is no longer a tenable position. That's obvious from the widespread political dissension we've been seeing lately
And moving forward, in the direction of progressive, liberal humanism, depends critically on an honest appraisal of why we are not already there yet. It is not (as Rousseau imagined a century before Darwin and Marx after him) because our egalitarian "paradise lost" was subverted by the deliberate intent of the political elite (though that might slow the process) - the reality is, we (our species) were never in that "paradise" in the first place. And unless we properly understand why not, we might never get there at all.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Not a matter of life and death? Nobody told these guys that...

View attachment 88655View attachment 88656
But seriously, as if that were not serious enough...in what sense are you suggesting that sport is not biological or natural?

Sports is an organized, human-conceived activity, which operates according to man-made rules. I wasn't really referring to death sports, but modern sports as practiced in today's society. It's not a matter of life and death in the sense that it's not really a vital necessity for society to function. Its value is more of intangible, like entertainment.

Well of course you are conflating two common uses of the term "natural" here...in reality there is nothing "artificial" that does not conform to the "natural" laws by which the universe functions...

Well, if nothing is artificial, then what is everyone complaining about?

No, the real problem is the assumption that all social conventions are purely ideological and artificial (per Marx), designed by the powerful to subjugate the weak...the real problem is the failure to acknowledge that some of those conventions have grown out of our natural instinctive inclination to form groups and group hierarchies (just as many of our non-human evolutionary cousins do) and were not deliberately invented by some mythical "founder of civil society" and his ideological "progeny" to gain and preserve hegemony over his naïve and otherwise isolated and unpropertied "noble savage" contemporaries (per Rousseau).

Social conventions are conceived by humans and a reflection of human thought, although I never suggested anything about a mythical "founder of civil society." I don't suggest that it's "designed" either, but more likely the result of millennia of trial and error. I suppose one can consider it "natural," inasmuch as humans are a social animal, but that being the case, human nature itself can be mutable and malleable within the construct of the group of which they are part. The ability to adapt is a key component of survival. That's also natural.

We ARE a territorial animal - like many other territorial animals we are naturally inclined to defend our "territory" in order to protect the resources that are important to our survival (and the propagation of our genes)...our food, our mates, our "nest"...and we are especially vigorous in defending it against other members of our own species because, guess what, we all need the same things (more or less).

We ARE a "pack animal" and some of the hierarchical structures we so despise in our ultra-egalitarian 21st century sensibilities, unquestionably have their roots in the Darwinian naturally selective processes that have brought our species from hunter-gatherer to industrialization and beyond...they have their roots in the biological reality that for the vast majority of our 200,000 years as a species (not to mention the millions of years of our pre-human ancestry), life consisted of a daily struggle to survive that required us to work together in relatively small, tightknit, exclusive, territorial and mutually antagonistic groups in which social hierarchy was crucial to success.

The past 200 years have seen monumental changes which were largely unseen and unprecedented compared to the previous 200,000 years of humanity's existence on Earth (and the millions of years of pre-human ancestry, as you say). We moved from hunter-gathers to industrial societies. Throughout that time, we have had to contend with the "natural" aspects of who and what we are, as a species, such as our territorialism and the social hierarchies, which became more and more complex as cities became larger and nations became more populated and unified as singular political units. Underlying it all was language, both written and oral, which also became more and more complex (and diversified).

Interestingly, much of the time, human society has been an exercise in conditioning people against being their more wild, natural, animalistic selves - and it has often been done in very cruel and vicious ways to drive the point home to the general public about what they're not supposed to be doing, natural or not. It may be natural for humans to want to kill, but if they do, they might suffer some penalty for doing so. It may be natural for humans to want to steal, but that, too, carries a penalty. Humans are also a sexual species, naturally speaking, but many societies have tried to keep that under control. Sometimes it might go a bit too far.

But the whole idea is that humans have learned to curb the baser aspects of their nature, largely out of a sense of shared survival. In the nuclear era, we've had to find ways to curb certain territorial instincts pretty quickly (although even then, we humans still can't seem to totally behave in that regard). People can learn to curb their natural instincts when they are aware and knowledgeable of that the fact that failing to do so could lead to a devastating outcome.


We have to have it both ways at the same time because it IS both ways at the same time...that's the point...we (our societies) are a product of both natural selection and learned behavior...there is no "choosing" which one to "embrace" - we have to acknowledge both.

That's what we've already been doing. We're trying to have it both ways, but there are some worrisome signs of late that it might not go on indefinitely. Even nature has certain limits. Sometimes there are natural consequences which may be unforeseen.

And moving forward, in the direction of progressive, liberal humanism, depends critically on an honest appraisal of why we are not already there yet. It is not (as Rousseau imagined a century before Darwin and Marx after him) because our egalitarian "paradise lost" was subverted by the deliberate intent of the political elite (though that might slow the process) - the reality is, we (our species) were never in that "paradise" in the first place. And unless we properly understand why not, we might never get there at all.

Well, we're not there yet because we're not really trying. Some might argue that many aspects of liberal humanism are impractical on a global scale. Some people worry about economics and matters of physical/material necessity. Scarcity and the fights over the world's resources are just as natural as rival animal packs fighting over food. If someone feels they're getting the short end of the stick, then it's within the same parameters of nature for them to react with anger and possibly violence. That's how wars can get started. And, in the context of this discussion, that's where the rubber meets the road.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Social conventions are conceived by humans and a reflection of human thought, although I never suggested anything about a mythical "founder of civil society."
I know you didn't, that was a quote from Rousseau who imagined that the notion of property ownership (and thereby civil society) was invented by the first man who put up a fence around a piece of land and said "that's mine"...

...but not all social conventions - or better, norms - are the result of human thought - that's my point. If that were true, then there would be no socially-reinforced normative behaviors in other animals and that, it seems increasingly apparent, is not the case...

...and its much more likely (in the light of Darwin) that the notion of "property ownership" in some rudimentary form, predates human society by millions of years...our cat might not erect fences, but he does mark the boundary of "his" territory...

...so, contrary to Rousseau (and Marx), I reckon its clear by now that no humans generally, or any particular individual or subset thereof, really did concoct the notion of property ownership at all - and certainly not with the deliberate intent of defrauding their more naturally ingenuous neighbors...rather, we grew or evolved into a "property-owning" species as a natural development of the more naïve instinctual but nevertheless socially-mediated imperative to defend a territory in order to ensure our survival.
human nature itself can be mutable and malleable
Yes, but not infinitely so...as you say...
within the construct of the group of which they are part.
...which construct is inescapably the product of both natural instinct and learned behavior...or what? Are we going to stretch the roots of socialism even further back - beyond Rousseau to Locke's tabula rasa? I think not. As you said earlier, we need to move, we must move...preferably "forward"...but with the with the full recognition that a lot of what we are, a lot of what we least admire in ourselves (as a species) is in large part, a natural consequence of the process that has brought us from scurrying around between the legs of the dinosaurs to the age of the smart phone.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I consider sports to be more in the realm of entertainment, where nothing is equal. It's not a matter of life or death, nor is it even biological or "natural." It's a man-made spectacle. I was thinking more in terms of basic human rights.

First off, great OP.

I think another way to think about this is that we are human animals. We are not separate from our bodies, we ARE our bodies. Every day scientists learn more and more about how our brains are not limited to what's inside our skulls, but that we have to consider the entire nervous system as a CRUCIAL part of our brains.

So as far as sports go, Jaak Panksepp discovered that ALL mammals have a strong "play drive". (Some birds too!). And play does not stop when animals mature. The healthiest mammals play up until the very end. Play really IS a matter of life and death.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I know you didn't, that was a quote from Rousseau who imagined that the notion of property ownership (and thereby civil society) was invented by the first man who put up a fence around a piece of land and said "that's mine"...

Or maybe a group of people claimed an area of land and said "that's ours." It probably didn't really mean much until people started to farm.

...but not all social conventions - or better, norms - are the result of human thought - that's my point. If that were true, then there would be no socially-reinforced normative behaviors in other animals and that, it seems increasingly apparent, is not the case...

...and its much more likely (in the light of Darwin) that the notion of "property ownership" in some rudimentary form, predates human society by millions of years...our cat might not erect fences, but he does mark the boundary of "his" territory...

...so, contrary to Rousseau (and Marx), I reckon its clear by now that no humans generally, or any particular individual or subset thereof, really did concoct the notion of property ownership at all - and certainly not with the deliberate intent of defrauding their more naturally ingenuous neighbors...rather, we grew or evolved into a "property-owning" species as a natural development of the more naïve instinctual but nevertheless socially-mediated imperative to defend a territory in order to ensure our survival.

I think the basic concept has evolved over the centuries. In the present era, questions regarding property ownership and disputes involving property owners appears to be in the domain of lawyers, courts, politicians, and the government. These were also derived from the same social conventions we're speaking of.

Yes, but not infinitely so...as you say...

...which construct is inescapably the product of both natural instinct and learned behavior...or what? Are we going to stretch the roots of socialism even further back - beyond Rousseau to Locke's tabula rasa? I think not. As you said earlier, we need to move, we must move...preferably "forward"...but with the with the full recognition that a lot of what we are, a lot of what we least admire in ourselves (as a species) is in large part, a natural consequence of the process that has brought us from scurrying around between the legs of the dinosaurs to the age of the smart phone.

Well, we do have the ability to learn from our mistakes, regardless of what one's politics might be. That was one of the features of the US Constitution and the original design of the US government, in that, if something doesn't work out or if the government makes a mistake, there are provisions for fixing it. While there are enough buffers to prevent anything too whimsical or reflective of "mobocracy," it does remain at least reasonably flexible to the point where flaws in the system can be corrected - if enough people want them to be corrected.

That's where part of the problem may lie. It seems to be a recurring theme in past civilizations and empires which failed, in that they seemingly reach a plateau where they're at the peak of their power, but they don't know where to go next and they become oblivious to what the next challenge might be. It leads to a certain sense of complacency and a false sense of security where "all is right with the world."
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
I know you didn't, that was a quote from Rousseau who imagined that the notion of property ownership (and thereby civil society) was invented by the first man who put up a fence around a piece of land and said "that's mine"...
Owning land is a human right. It is a key part of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you own a home or even rent an apartment, this becomes a private sanctuary, where you can do your own thing; pursuit of happiness. Others are not allowed, including the State, to invade your privacy. You are on neutral ground where you can even be above the law in terms of victimless crime; drink privately during Prohibition. Owning property, beyond the house, also allows for this right to security and individual happiness, to extend beyond the walls of your home. In my town you cannot drink on a city side walk, but you can drink inside your fence two feet away; social respect for extra property rights.

The political Left fixates on the Billionaire who owns a square mile, but not the middle class family who lives safe, within their modest home, with a fenced year that has a little garden, children's swing set and pet dog. Their home is their castle and sanctuary; own a little country of family rules and private enjoyment.

Say nobody could own land, what is the incentive to build your house and farm your land, if the predators and parasites can just wait at the fence, for you to finish building your house, and harvest your farm, so they can freely enter your house, rip off your winter food, and make you leave without any possession? Wouldn't it be easier for Farmer Joe to become a predator and/or parasite?

If we have too many predators and parasites, this is a recipe for total social decline. The Political Left sides with the predators; criminals and parasites; on the dole. They fail to see if this POV reaches a critical level, there will be a decline, for even them. This is finally been seen, by the Left, in crime tolerant Lefty cities; too many legal predators reaches the critical point.

The right to own land, gives the home owner peace of mind, since he knows culture, by law ands law enforcement, will not tolerate or favor the predators and parasites invading private santuary space. This social acceptance of owning property, will also create a line in the sand, to help default more social behavior toward being productive; own your own sanctuary. The political Right is more about productivity and rights, many which need private property; safe home haven that will not be stolen or commandeered even by the State.

Culture would be better off if the productive taught the predators and parasites how to own land and be productive. By owning a piece of land they will feel the joy and security of their sanctuary, and learn to empathize with the productive, since they could become a target of predators and parasites, if not protected.

What I would like to see is two American experiments, side by side. We can have the Left, with all its predators and parasites, and the Right with is higher ratio of productive. Then we can see how each life style progresses, without the other to complain about, or supplement the other. The Right would find it easier to function without the drag of the Left, while the Left would find it harder without the forced supplements by the Right. The right does it by charity, which is a way to do the same thing while allowing property rights; money is property.
 
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siti

Well-Known Member
It's a human right to not have one's land stolen.
Well that assumes the land is "one's" in the first place...so again, says who?

I'm guessing you are not an indigenous inhabitant of "one's" land? So if you are declaring this as a fundamental and universal "human right", who stole what from whom really just depends on how far you go back...and your Scottish ancestors might well have only been where "one's" land now is because the Sassenachs stole theirs.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Well that assumes the land is "one's" in the first place...so again, says who?
Think of it as a premise, rather than "true"
every time someone claims ownership.
I'm guessing you are not an indigenous inhabitant of "one's" land?
Indigent...not indigenous.
So if you are declaring this as a fundamental and universal "human right", who stole what from whom really just depends on how far you go back...and your Scottish ancestors might well have only been where "one's" land now is because the Sassenachs stole theirs.
This is a complex issue that I've considered at length.
I'd actually been considering making a thread about it.
So it won't happen here.
Suffice to say.....most people will hate my approach.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
Think of it as a premise, rather than "true"
A false premise then...that's a refreshingly straightforward way of conceding an argument
I thought you hated redefinition of words...how can a property-owning bacon-eater be described as "indigent"...you're probably confusing it for indigestion...a common enough complaint for people in our age group.
Suffice to say.....most people will hate my approach.
I suppose that depends on exactly how your indigestion manifests...
 
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