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Birmingham University manuscript of Quran: Who could have written/dictated the following verses?

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I give below seven verses 20:1-7 from:
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
[al-Qurʼān]Two leavesfrom a Hijazi Qurʼān containing verses from Surah 18 (Al-Kahf, ‘The Cave’), verses 17–23; Surah 19 (Maryam, ‘Mary’), verses 91–98; and Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–40. Probably mid-7th century.
http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/M...na_Islamic_Arabic_1572a_folio_1_verso/viewer/

[20:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[20:2]Ta Ha.
[20:3]We have not sent down the Qur’an to thee that thou shouldst be distressed,
[20:4]But as an exhortation for him who fears God,
[20:5]And a revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens.
[20:6]He is the Gracious God Who has settled Himself on the Throne.
[20:7]To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and whatsoever is between them, and whatsoever is beneath the moist subsoil.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=20

Who could have written/dictated the above verses?
Whether a Jew, a Christian, a Meccan idolatrous, a Zoroastrian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an Atheist etc.? Please name the religion/sect/denomination and quote from such religion’s basic books for an evidence.

Regards
 
Last edited:
I give below seven verses 20:1-7 from:
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
[al-Qurʼān]Two leavesfrom a Hijazi Qurʼān containing verses from Surah 18 (Al-Kahf, ‘The Cave’), verses 17–23; Surah 19 (Maryam, ‘Mary’), verses 91–98; and Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–40. Probably mid-7th century.
http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/M...na_Islamic_Arabic_1572a_folio_1_verso/viewer/

[20:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[20:2]Ta Ha.
[20:3]We have not sent down the Qur’an to thee that thou shouldst be distressed,
[20:4]But as an exhortation for him who fears God,
[20:5]And a revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens.
[20:6]He is the Gracious God Who has settled Himself on the Throne.
[20:7]To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and whatsoever is between them, and whatsoever is beneath the moist subsoil.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=20

Who could have written/dictated the above verses?
Whether a Jew, a Christian, a Meccan idolatrous, a Zoroastrian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an Atheist etc.? Please name the religion/sect/denomination and quote from such religion’s basic books for an evidence.

Regards

Whether the Quran is the word of God or not can never be 'proved' for or against, and I have no desire to attempt to 'prove' anything as regards the nature of the Quran. I'm more interested in the historical nature of Arabia in late antiquity. So please don't interpret anything I say as an 'attack'. Even if it is all true, it doesn't rule out Divine revelation as the source of the Quran, and discussions about the ultimate source of the message don't lead anywhere anyway so I will avoid discussing it. I'm more interested in the audience, rather than the author.

Hopefully what we can agree on though is: Muhammed was a historical person, he lived in a real place, this place had a reality, his message, direct from God or otherwise, likely reflected this environment. God would have sent a message that the audience could understand and relate to, so it would likely reflect the environment even if it came from God. Outside of the Quran, much of Islamic history is the work of men, men are fallible, therefore, outside of the Quran, Islamic History is open to revision based on evidence.

Can you agree with this?

Anyway, onto the topic

Surat Ta Ha, as you know, is a commentary on the story of Moses and, to a lesser extent, Adam. Their stories are used to promote the greatness of God, and what happens to those who disbelieve or disobey God. It is not simply telling the story of Moses, it is making a theological argument using the story of Moses and Adam as an example

The start, which you quote is like the 'introduction' and it reflects the 'conclusion' of the Surat:

"So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing. (130)Stretch not thine eyes to that We have given pairs of them to enjoy - the flower of the present life, that We may try them therein and thy Lord's provision is better, and more enduring.(131)And bid thy family to pray, and be thou patient in it; We ask of thee no provision, but it is We who provide thee and the issue ultimate is to godfearing.(132)They say, 'Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?' Has there not come to them the clear sign of what is in the former scrolls? (133)Had We destroyed them with a chastisement aforetime, they would have said, 'Our Lord, why didst Thou not send us a Messenger, so that we might have followed Thy signs before that we were humiliated and degraded?'(134)Say: 'Everyone is waiting; so wait, and assuredly you shall know who are the travellers on the even path, and who is guided.' (135)"

The Surat is clearly aimed at an audience who are familiar with the Biblical stories, rather than an audience of isolated pagans unfamiliar with Christian/Jewish scripture.

As regards the context, the following passage is relevant:

"From a literary point of view, we should talk of Qur’ānic Psalms, as well as Qur’ānic madrāšē, memrē, and soḡiyāthā72. I don’t mean that the texts I am inclined to call Qur’ānic Psalms, madrāšē, and so on, are a servile borrowing of Syriac literary traditions – far from that: they are adapted, not without creativity, to the context of Arabic language and literature (e.g. Syriac verse is based on syllabic count, contrary to Arabic poetry and Arabic saǧ‘). But – and this is crucial –, they share compositional features with their Syriac/Aramaic homologs, they draw from them a good part of their verbal, phraseological and thematic repertoire, and, also, they play a similar role: they are suited for narrative or paraenetic compositions, and they are used in homiletic or liturgical settings. Indeed, a good number of Qur’ānic pericopes look like Arabic ingenious patchworks of Biblical and para- Biblical texts, designed to comment passages or aspects of the Scripture, whereas others look like Arabic translations of liturgical formulas.

This is not unexpected if we have in mind some Late Antique religious practices, namely the well-known fact that Christian Churches followed the Jewish custom of reading publicly the Scriptures, according to the lectionary principle. In other words, people did not read the whole of the Scripture to the assembly, but lectionaries (Syriac qǝryānā, “reading of Scripture in Divine Service”, etymon of Arabic qur’ān), containing selected passages of the Scripture, to be read in the community. Therefore, many of the texts which constitute the Qur’ān should not be seen (at least if we are interested in their original Sitz im Leben) as substitutes for the (Jewish or Christian) Scripture, but rather as a (putatively divinely inspired) commentary of Scripture. And since this Scripture was not in Arabic, we understand better the role of the Qur’ān, and we also understand better why it insists so much on Arabic (Q 12:2; 13:37; 14:41; 16:103; 26:195; 39:28; 41:3, 44; 42:7; 43:3; 46:12): stressing that there is an Arabic qur’ān supposes that there might be non-Arabic scriptures." Guillaume Dye - Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in Qur’ānic Arabic

And as regards the rest of the Birmingham Quran, al-Kahf and Maryam also reflect a commentary on Christian/Jewish scripture and non-scriptural mythology.

As I said, I have no desire to comment on whether the Quran is the word of God, the Islamic tradition clearly argues that the Quran was needed to correct distortions in scripture anyway, so none of this should be problematic from an Islamic perspective.

When looking at the Quran in its historical context, it clearly reflects an environment in which Abrahamic monotheism was present and known. Who the author was can never be 'proved', but the audience of the author is a group familiar with Christian and Jewish stories and theology.
 

Shad

Veteran Member
I give below seven verses 20:1-7 from:
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
[al-Qurʼān]Two leavesfrom a Hijazi Qurʼān containing verses from Surah 18 (Al-Kahf, ‘The Cave’), verses 17–23; Surah 19 (Maryam, ‘Mary’), verses 91–98; and Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–40. Probably mid-7th century.
http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/M...na_Islamic_Arabic_1572a_folio_1_verso/viewer/

[20:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[20:2]Ta Ha.
[20:3]We have not sent down the Qur’an to thee that thou shouldst be distressed,
[20:4]But as an exhortation for him who fears God,
[20:5]And a revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens.
[20:6]He is the Gracious God Who has settled Himself on the Throne.
[20:7]To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and whatsoever is between them, and whatsoever is beneath the moist subsoil.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=20

Who could have written/dictated the above verses?
Whether a Jew, a Christian, a Meccan idolatrous, a Zoroastrian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an Atheist etc.? Please name the religion/sect/denomination and quote from such religion’s basic books for an evidence.

Regards

Anyone could of as the verse is simply reinforcing it's claims with circular reasoning.

"The above sentence is true for FSM send down this sentence to correct flawed thinking,
For the FGM is gracious and the truth"
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Whether the Quran is the word of God or not can never be 'proved' for or against, and I have no desire to attempt to 'prove' anything as regards the nature of the Quran. I'm more interested in the historical nature of Arabia in late antiquity. So please don't interpret anything I say as an 'attack'. Even if it is all true, it doesn't rule out Divine revelation as the source of the Quran, and discussions about the ultimate source of the message don't lead anywhere anyway so I will avoid discussing it. I'm more interested in the audience, rather than the author.

Hopefully what we can agree on though is: Muhammed was a historical person, he lived in a real place, this place had a reality, his message, direct from God or otherwise, likely reflected this environment. God would have sent a message that the audience could understand and relate to, so it would likely reflect the environment even if it came from God. Outside of the Quran, much of Islamic history is the work of men, men are fallible, therefore, outside of the Quran, Islamic History is open to revision based on evidence.

Can you agree with this?
  • I'm more interested in the historical nature of Arabia in late antiquity.
I am not much interested in that, yet I may read from some links provided by you, and the others I learnt bout while reading one of them.When I am finished reading them, I may comment on them, like:
https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Quranic_Deities.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic
God and Man in the Koran- T. Izutsu
https://deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/izutsu-god-man-quran.pdf

Hawting Gerald R., The Idea of Idolatry and the Emergence of Islam. From Polemic to History. Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization
The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'ān
By Jane Dammen McAuliff
  • I'm more interested in the audience, rather than the author
I am interested in the message in Quran for me, and not much about the audience.
  • Hopefully what we can agree on though is: Muhammed was a historical person, he lived in a real place, this place had a reality, his message, direct from God or otherwise, likely reflected this environment. God would have sent a message that the audience could understand and relate to, so it would likely reflect the environment even if it came from God. Outside of the Quran, much of Islamic history is the work of men, men are fallible, therefore, outside of the Quran, Islamic History is open to revision based on evidence.
I agree with the points coloured by me in red above.
Regards
 
  • I'm more interested in the historical nature of Arabia in late antiquity.
I am not much interested in that, yet I may read from some links provided by you, and the others I learnt bout while reading one of them.When I am finished reading them, I may comment on them, like:
https://www.hs.ias.edu/files/Crone_Articles/Crone_Quranic_Deities.pdf
https://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic
God and Man in the Koran- T. Izutsu
https://deenrc.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/izutsu-god-man-quran.pdf

Hawting Gerald R., The Idea of Idolatry and the Emergence of Islam. From Polemic to History. Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization
The Cambridge Companion to the Qur'ān
By Jane Dammen McAuliff



    • I'm more interested in the audience, rather than the author
I am interested in the message in Quran for me, and not much about the audience.
  • Hopefully what we can agree on though is: Muhammed was a historical person, he lived in a real place, this place had a reality, his message, direct from God or otherwise, likely reflected this environment. God would have sent a message that the audience could understand and relate to, so it would likely reflect the environment even if it came from God. Outside of the Quran, much of Islamic history is the work of men, men are fallible, therefore, outside of the Quran, Islamic History is open to revision based on evidence.
I agree with the points coloured by me in red above.
Regards


Do you think the Surahs in question reflect a commentary on existing religious traditions and were delivered to an audience of people who already knew these traditions?

I've never understood why some Muslims try to make out that the Arabs were far more ignorant, backward and isolated than they actually were. They were far more integrated into the region than they are given credit for, and large numbers of them belonged to Christian or Jewish sects.

You say you aren't interested in the history, but don't you think that understanding the history helps you to better understand the message? If the message reflects the environment, then understanding the environment is important to understand the message.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–7

[20:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[20:2]Ta Ha.
[20:3]We have not sent down the Qur’an to thee that thou shouldst be distressed,
[20:4]But as an exhortation for him who fears God,
[20:5]And a revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens.
[20:6]He is the Gracious God Who has settled Himself on the Throne.
[20:7]To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and whatsoever is between them, and whatsoever is beneath the moist subsoil.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=20

David Thomas, professor of Christianity and Islam at the University of Birmingham, said:
“The manuscript must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Qur’an read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed.”

Regards
 
Last edited:

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
  1. Do you think the Surahs in question reflect a commentary on existing religious traditions and were delivered to an audience of people who already knew these traditions?
  2. I've never understood why some Muslims try to make out that the Arabs were far more ignorant, backward and isolated than they actually were. They were far more integrated into the region than they are given credit for, and large numbers of them belonged to Christian or Jewish sects.
  3. You say you aren't interested in the history, but don't you think that understanding the history helps you to better understand the message? If the message reflects the environment,
  4. then understanding the environment is important to understand the message.
  1. They might have known them to different levels, from being ignorant to having some knowledge.
  2. In Mecca very few of the Christian or Jews.
  3. I am not a professional historian, my interest is that of a lay man, an ordinary human being in the street in search of truth of life.
  4. It is for that that I intend to read the treatises/books as mentioned in post #5.
Regards
 
In Mecca very few of the Christian or Jews.

But they were the audience for the Surahs in question.

If there were few Christians or Jews then they wouldn't understand the commentary on religious scripture that exists in these verses. The stories wouldn't make any sense to them.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
But they were the audience for the Surahs in question.
If there were few Christians or Jews then they wouldn't understand the commentary on religious scripture that exists in these verses. The stories wouldn't make any sense to them.
Muhammad was the prophet to the whole world and for all times to come. His message was for everybody, and the whole world was/is audience of Quran.
Regards
 

MD

qualiaphile
Muhammad was the prophet to the whole world and for all times to come. His message was for everybody, and the whole world was/is audience of Quran.
Regards

How can you believe that something was sent directly from God, when the information in the Quran contradicts science, is a copy of earlier Greek works? Can God, the architect of existence be wrong?
 
Muhammad was the prophet to the whole world and for all times to come. His message was for everybody, and the whole world was/is audience of Quran.

But for his message to be successful, he first had to persuade those closest to him. The message may be eternal, but it also must relate to the time and place of revelation.

How would the Surahs work if the audience didn't know about the companions in the cave, Mary, Moses and Adam?
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
But for his message to be successful, he first had to persuade those closest to him. The message may be eternal, but it also must relate to the time and place of revelation.
How would the Surahs work if the audience didn't know about the companions in the cave, Mary, Moses and Adam?
There were enough arguments for the Meccans and the people around to convince them of the Revelation.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
How can you believe that something was sent directly from God, when the information in the Quran contradicts science, is a copy of earlier Greek works? Can God, the architect of existence be wrong?
We are presently dicussing in this thread seven verses of Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–7 from:
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
[al-Qurʼān]Two leaves from a Hijazi Qurʼān.

Is there a science issue in these seven verses mentioned in the OP?
Regards
 

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–7

[20:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[20:2]Ta Ha.
[20:3]We have not sent down the Qur’an to thee that thou shouldst be distressed,
[20:4]But as an exhortation for him who fears God,
[20:5]And a revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens.
[20:6]He is the Gracious God Who has settled Himself on the Throne.
[20:7]To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and whatsoever is between them, and whatsoever is beneath the moist subsoil.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=20

David Thomas, professor of Christianity and Islam at the University of Birmingham, said:
“The manuscript must have been in a form that is very close to the form of the Qur’an read today, supporting the view that the text has undergone little or no alteration and that it can be dated to a point very close to the time it was believed to be revealed.”

Regards

I am more interested in whatever evidence your author used to support his conclusion. The world is crawling with religious crackpots. A mere quote from some author means very little. Just a weak argument from authority.

I realize that quoting from books is the favourite religious mode of argument, but I find that it cuts no ice with me.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
I am more interested in whatever evidence your author used to support his conclusion. The world is crawling with religious crackpots. A mere quote from some author means very little. Just a weak argument from authority.
I realize that quoting from books is the favourite religious mode of argument, but I find that it cuts no ice with me.
Sorry, I could not get you exactly. Please elaborate and express yourself fully.
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
How can you believe that something was sent directly from God, when the information in the Quran contradicts science, is a copy of earlier Greek works? Can God, the architect of existence be wrong?
Then please quote from the Greek works where from the seven verse mentioned in the OP have been copied from.
Can you?
Impossible to do it. Right?
Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
How can you believe that something was sent directly from God, when the information in the Quran contradicts science, is a copy of earlier Greek works? Can God, the architect of existence be wrong?

G-d cannot be wrong, for sure, but our understanding could be wrong.
Regards
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
I give below seven verses 20:1-7 from:
Collections:Mingana-Islamic Arabic-Islamic Arabic 1572a
[al-Qurʼān]Two leavesfrom a Hijazi Qurʼān containing verses from Surah 18 (Al-Kahf, ‘The Cave’), verses 17–23; Surah 19 (Maryam, ‘Mary’), verses 91–98; and Surah 20 (Ta-Ha, 'Ta-Ha'), verses 1–40. Probably mid-7th century.
http://vmr.bham.ac.uk/Collections/M...na_Islamic_Arabic_1572a_folio_1_verso/viewer/

[20:1]In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[20:2]Ta Ha.
[20:3]We have not sent down the Qur’an to thee that thou shouldst be distressed,
[20:4]But as an exhortation for him who fears God,
[20:5]And a revelation from Him Who created the earth and the high heavens.
[20:6]He is the Gracious God Who has settled Himself on the Throne.
[20:7]To Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth, and whatsoever is between them, and whatsoever is beneath the moist subsoil.

http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?ch=20

Who could have written/dictated the above verses?
Whether a Jew, a Christian, a Meccan idolatrous, a Zoroastrian, a Hindu, a Buddhist, an Atheist etc.? Please name the religion/sect/denomination and quote from such religion’s basic books for an evidence.

Regards



OMG, Surah Taha makes me emotional always. It gives me spiritual strength.
 
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