Birthright Exceptions To The 14th Amendment Is Fundamentally Un-American

[Kathryn]

.

Not how it works with the 14th amendment.

I didn't say that's how it works with the 14th amendment - I was making SUGGESTIONS. I clarified my suggestions in my next post. As I've stated, I am against repealing the 14th amendment, and all in favor of making the road to legal citizenship easier for people who are not security risks and are willing and able to be productive, law abiding members of US society.

And I believe ESPECIALLY in the case of parents of children born here, that the process should be expidited and simplified. I also believe that it could be optional IF the parents were unwilling or unable to qualify as US citizens, that their child could be given the option of retaining US citizenship while still living abroad with the parents till he/she was able to move here independently.

Parents who are unwilling or unable to gain citizenship should not be moving here illegally just so they can pop out a baby to secure their "right" to be here. Personally, I think that's a pretty repulsive reason to have a child - don't you?

Oh and people can't be illegal. The more proper term is undocumented citizen's.

The commonly used term is "illegal alien." They are not "undocumented citizens" - unless by that you mean "undocumented citizens of some other country." But that wouldn't be accurate either, because they probably ARE documented citizens of another country - just not THIS country. They are not legally here. Their premeditated decision to move here outside the law means they are here ILLEGALLY.

So - maybe we can start a new phrase - Illegally here people. Or, Peeps Abiding Not By Immigration Laws- we can call them PANBILs - damn, that's pretty nifty. Or - People Having A Baby To Anchor Themselves - PHABTATs!

Before you demonize me, please keep in mind that I am 100 percent in favor of easing the process to legally immigrate here - and I also lean in the direction of some sort of controlled amnesty for those who have been here peacefully and legally (other than citizenship issues) for a long time.

My point though is that we MUST know who is here - and we must not have a system that allows itself to be manipulated by people who would actually GET PREGNANT and have a baby just to use that child as a tool to live here legally. That's disgusting.

Undocumented immigrants pay just as much in taxes as anyone else both federal and local.

Source, please. And how can they be paying federal taxes if they don't have a Tax ID number?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Source, please. And how can they be paying federal taxes if they don't have a Tax ID number?

If you get a job with a Social Security number that's fake or belongs to someone else, you still get your income taxes taken off your paycheque; you just can't claim many of the benefits those taxes pay for.

 

[LittlePinky82]

I didn't say that's how it works with the 14th amendment - I was making SUGGESTIONS. I clarified my suggestions in my next post. As I've stated, I am against repealing the 14th amendment, and all in favor of making the road to legal citizenship easier for people who are not security risks and are willing and able to be productive, law abiding members of US society.

You can suggest it all day long. It still doesn't work like that and there is precedent as well with this as I already mentioned with the Chinese man case. And who defines "security risks"? You? Did you know the U.S. is protecting a terrorist? Look up the Cuban 5 ordeal. There's a man (Italian maybe? Been a while since I read up on all of that) that is being protected by the U.S. government because he's being useful. So please. Who defines "security risks"?

And I believe ESPECIALLY in the case of parents of children born here, that the process should be expidited and simplified. I also believe that it could be optional IF the parents were unwilling or unable to qualify as US citizens, that their child could be given the option of retaining US citizenship while still living abroad with the parents till he/she was able to move here independently.

Why should the child have to go anywhere or their parents? Because you don't like it?

Parents who are unwilling or unable to gain citizenship should not be moving here illegally just so they can pop out a baby to secure their "right" to be here. Personally, I think that's a pretty repulsive reason to have a child - don't you?

Nope. Because I'm not claiming people are doing that. That's just a disgusting thing to assume about other people. You haven't asked them have you? Of course not. You're more than happy to make disgusting assumptions about individual's you know nothing about. That's what is repulsive.

The commonly used term is "illegal alien." They are not "undocumented citizens" - unless by that you mean "undocumented citizens of some other country." But that wouldn't be accurate either, because they probably ARE documented citizens of another country - just not THIS country. They are not legally here. Their premeditated decision to move here outside the law means they are here ILLEGALLY.

Yes they are undocumented citizens (and it's automatically assumed you're talking about as the country you're residing in doy). People can't be illegal. Period. Only actions can be. One of the first things you learn in criminal law or any law.

So - maybe we can start a new phrase - Illegally here people. Or, Peeps Abiding Not By Immigration Laws- we can call them PANBILs - damn, that's pretty nifty. Or - People Having A Baby To Anchor Themselves - PHABTATs!

No because that's disgusting. It's undocumented immigrants.

Before you demonize me, please keep in mind that I am 100 percent in favor of easing the process to legally immigrate here - and I also lean in the direction of some sort of controlled amnesty for those who have been here peacefully and legally (other than citizenship issues) for a long time.

You're more than happy to demonize other people and make disgusting comments about them. So please spare me the holier than thou nonsense.

My point though is that we MUST know who is here - and we must not have a system that allows itself to be manipulated by people who would actually GET PREGNANT and have a baby just to use that child as a tool to live here legally. That's disgusting.

Once again what's disgusting to assume something of people. You haven't asked them about that have you? Of course not. And what about people who are here on vacation and they happen to be pregnant and their baby comes early? It happens you know. I came a month early and was supposed to be born in August but came in mid July. You're making disgusting comments, and as I said, are more than happy to demonize other people. Hypocrisy!

Source, please. And how can they be paying federal taxes if they don't have a Tax ID number?

It's called the IRS.

Links- http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=129431,00.html

http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/llr/vol9/lipman.php

 

[Kathryn]

If you get a job with a Social Security number that's fake or belongs to someone else, you still get your income taxes taken off your paycheque; you just can't claim many of the benefits those taxes pay for.

You're assuming that most illegals are working at established companies who are reporting their salaries to the government. Around here (Texas) most illegals are working in menial jobs at companies managed or owned by other Hispanics - lawn care, nurseries, tree services, maid services, restaurants, etc. They are working for cash only. Thus not only are they not paying federal taxes, they are not working toward their own Social Security and Medicare benefits. They are disenfranchised.

When it comes to local taxes - yes, they do pay sales tax, as would anyone, including visitors from other countries or states. Property taxes are another matter entirely. Though of course property taxes are computed in rent, illegals tend to live in very poor areas, and a large number of people live together in typically very tight quarters. Rent in these places usually runs about $200 - $400 a month. Not much of that is going toward property taxes - which pay for the bulk of a community's infrastructure and school system.

They have a difficult time moving from these extremely poor areas with very low rent, to better housing and certainly to home ownership, because when you get to the higher rent or mortgage level, owners and bankers require a valid SS number - and often run a check on that number. If the number is invalid, or the name/birthdate doesn't match, the application is denied.

Illegals can never hope to own a home - and this is sad. I am not opposed to illegal immigration simply out of a concern for national security (though that does play a large part in my opposition). I am also opposed to illegal immigration because it disenfranchises the illegal immigrant. Because they live "under the radar," their best interests are usually not represented. They are very vulnerable to predators and to exploitation.

I am not only concerned with the rights and protection of legal citizens. I am also concerned with the rights and protection of those who move here illegally. I don't believe that most illegal immigrants move here for any reason other than to better their lives and the lives of their loved ones. I empathize with those goals and applaud their hard work. I want to see them fully integrated into our society.

I also believe that as a matter of national security, we need to be able to better track those who cross our border, and we can't do that if we simply open the floodgates and reward illegal behaviors.

 

[Kathryn]

Why should the child have to go anywhere or their parents? Because you don't like it?

No, because in my philosophy and world view, children belong to the parents, not the state.

Nope. Because I'm not claiming people are doing that. That's just a disgusting thing to assume about other people. You haven't asked them have you? Of course not. You're more than happy to make disgusting assumptions about individual's you know nothing about. That's what is repulsive.

sigh. Oh, Pinky, have you always been this naive? I didn't say or claim (nor do I believe) that all pregnant illegal immigrants get pregnant JUST SO they can live here legally. However, it DOES happen. By the way, the Hispanic birthrate (of legal and illegal immigrants, and US citizens) is twice that of other races here in the US. Not saying that's a bad thing - just pointing out a fact.

By the way, living in Texas, I know quite a number of both legal and illegal immigrants. No, I haven't asked them if they used their babies as "anchors," but I do notice a very high birth rate. I also work at a bank, and many of my Hispanic customers come to me with questions about their illegal friends and relatives' options (which when it comes to banking, are zero - because they have to have a VALID tax ID number, not a fake one, in order to do any banking). Sad, really - no loans, no mortgage options - heck, they can't even have a debit card or savings account in their own name. This is truly pitiful. THEY NEED TO BECOME LEGAL CITIZENS in order to be able to enjoy the full benefits of living in the United States.

Yes they are undocumented citizens (and it's automatically assumed you're talking about as the country you're residing in doy). People can't be illegal. Period. Only actions can be. One of the first things you learn in criminal law or any law.

No because that's disgusting. It's undocumented immigrants.

Come on - which is it - undocumented CITIZENS or undocumented IMMIGRANTS? I could go with the phrase "undocumented immigrants" but they are most definitely NOT US citizens.

And while you're at it - spare me the unsolicited lessons in law. I know and understand the concept you're trying to get across. However, I am using the common vernacular and actual legal TERM in place - which is illegal aliens or illegal immigrants. I didn't pull that term out of my *** - it's legal terminology on the books. You wanna call them something else - go right ahead. You can call them Puddin'Heads if you want. Doesn't matter to me.

You're more than happy to demonize other people and make disgusting comments about them. So please spare me the holier than thou nonsense.

I do believe this is a bona fide case of the pot calling the kettle black! Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle - Pot.

And what about people who are here on vacation and they happen to be pregnant and their baby comes early? It happens you know. I came a month early and was supposed to be born in August but came in mid July. You're making disgusting comments, and as I said, are more than happy to demonize other people. Hypocrisy!

OH THE OUTRAGE!

What's all this about people on vacation? Most people on vacation don't come here crammed 100 to a trailer, or trek across 30 miles of desert in a pair of flip flops.

As for those lucky little babies who happen to be born a month early to vacationing mothers shrug, who do those little preciouses belong to - the parents, or the state?

What does this scenario have to do with the discussion at hand, by the way?

I am not demonizing anyone. I am calling ******** on those who would immigrate here illegally and have a baby here in order to obtain rights to live here. Do you honestly believe this doesn't happen? It does. When it does, it's wrong. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not assuming that every single pregnant illegal IMMIGRANT got pregnant strictly for the purpose of obtaining US benefits - but I also am not so naive that I don't know it happens. Do you agree that this is the case sometimes? When it is the case, do you believe it's OK, or that it's wrong?

It's called the IRS.

Links- Introduction to Residency Under U.S. Tax Law

The Taxation of Undocumented Immigrants: Separate, Unequal, and Without Representation

I addressed this in my post above this one. I AGREE that illegal immigrants are not represented and are disenfranchised. If you read my posts objectively rather than with your overactive knee jerking spasmodically beneath the desk, you will see that I:

1. Am empathetic toward immigrants who move here to work and live and better their lives and the lives of their loved ones

2. Want to simplify the citizenship process so that they can become fully represented by our government

3. Want them to enjoy the full rights and responsibilities of legal citizenship

4. Want a better system in place in order to keep better track of who is entering, and remaining in, our country - FOR NATIONAL SECURITY PURPOSES.

For the life of me, I can't see how this position is intolerant or bigoted. Like I've said, I live in Texas - where white, non hispanic people are the minority. I love it here. I love the local Hispanic culture - the people are for the most part hard working, polite, family oriented and law abiding. Great food, and a vibrant, colorful culture. I want them here - I just want them here legally.

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Kathryn,
I think you're wrong about home ownership, paying tax and illegals.
Many (if not most?) of the Irish currently in the US are illegal, I am friends with and related to such scoundrels myself.
They own houses and businesses and are fine until picked up by the police for something else or until they are caught by immagration. Then they lose everything and are fired out.
AFAIK most 'buy' the numbers they need.

 

[Kathryn]

Hi Kathryn,
I think you're wrong about home ownership, paying tax and illegals.
Many (if not most?) of the Irish currently in the US are illegal, I am friends with and related to such scoundrels myself.
They own houses and businesses and are fine until picked up by the police for something else or until they are caught by immagration. Then they lose everything and are fired out.
AFAIK most 'buy' the numbers they need.

Do you see though, that they are disenfranchised?

If you "buy" a Social Security number, you are perpetually at risk of being "found out" and losing everything.

Here in Texas, buying a Social Security number is very expensive, and out of reach of many illegal immigrants.

With better technology and sources, these fraudulent tax ID numbers are more easily identified. Nearly every day at the bank I work at, we identify fraudulent tax ID numbers being used by people - both prospective and current customers. This is because of better systems and technology. They are given a short amount of time to validate their tax ID number, and then, if they can't, their accounts are shut down. When their accounts are shut down, their employers are notified (if they have direct deposit, which most larger and better quality companies around here have made mandatory).

This means that they have to find work elsewhere - usually losing a good benefits package and higher pay that they have previously earned.

Also, before I worked in banking, I worked at a professional placement firm. We ran all applicants through an ID system which verified their legal right to work in the US. On a DAILY basis, we identified illegal immigrants and were unable to help them find employment.

It's sad. I want to simplify the process of citizenship so that they are not in this perilous position.

 

[sandandfoam]

Do you see though, that they are disenfranchised?

Yes I do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You're assuming that most illegals are working at established companies who are reporting their salaries to the government.

No, I'm not. You asked how it would be impossible for illegal immigrants to pay taxes; I pointed out one way in which it's possible.

When it comes to local taxes - yes, they do pay sales tax, as would anyone, including visitors from other countries or states. Property taxes are another matter entirely. Though of course property taxes are computed in rent, illegals tend to live in very poor areas, and a large number of people live together in typically very tight quarters. Rent in these places usually runs about $200 - $400 a month. Not much of that is going toward property taxes - which pay for the bulk of a community's infrastructure and school system.

So indirectly (in the same way I did when I was renting), they do pay property taxes. You just don't think they pay their fair share.

I realize that your original question was about federal taxes specifically, but as you point out, many taxes are at the state and local level, and with many of these, people still pay them irrespective of whether they have valid Social Security numbers or not.

 

[Mister_T]

You're assuming that most illegals are working at established companies who are reporting their salaries to the government. Around here (Texas) most illegals are working in menial jobs at companies managed or owned by other Hispanics - lawn care, nurseries, tree services, maid services, restaurants, etc. They are working for cash only. Thus not only are they not paying federal taxes, they are not working toward their own Social Security and Medicare benefits.

Maybe it's different down in Texas. I know plently of illegal immigrants who work these and other menial jobs here in L.A. and almost all of them pay income taxes.

 

[Kathryn]

Maybe it's different down in Texas. I know plently of illegal immigrants who work these and other menial jobs here in L.A. and almost all of them pay income taxes.

So are you saying that their employers have hordes of illegal immigrants on their payroll and that's how they are paying income taxes?

If so - yes, it's different here, because in northeast Texas, most employers make a definite effort NOT to hire illegal aliens.

I would still say to you that those illegal aliens who are employed illegally in your area are at great risk of losing all the "benefits" of their illegal employment. All it would take is one raid for them to be off the payroll, their fake social security numbers inactivated, and the complete and sudden loss of all the future benefits (not to mention current ones) that they have been working so hard for.

With better technology forthcoming every day, it is easier and easier for employers to determine the immigration status of applicants and employees - and easier for the government to determine which employers (and employees) are circumventing the law.

 

[Smoke]

I would still say to you that those illegal aliens who are employed illegally in your area are at great risk of losing all the "benefits" of their illegal employment. All it would take is one raid for them to be off the payroll, their fake social security numbers inactivated, and the complete and sudden loss of all the future benefits (not to mention current ones) that they have been working so hard for.

Certainly, but the point they were making was that illegals pay taxes, not that they can collect the benefits.

 

[Darkness]

My point though is that we MUST know who is here - and we must not have a system that allows itself to be manipulated by people who would actually GET PREGNANT and have a baby just to use that child as a tool to live here legally. That's disgusting.

Doesn't the child have to be 21, or something, to get his or her parents citizenship? I remember Colbert doing a segment on it.

 

[LittlePinky82]

No, because in my philosophy and world view, children belong to the parents, not the state.

The U.S. Supreme Court case from 1941 with the Chinese man proved other wise. In the 14th amendment it mentions nothing about an individual's parents status. When the Chinese man's parents went back to China the Supreme Court said he could stay since he was a citizen since he was born here. His parents had nothing to do with him.

sigh. Oh, Pinky, have you always been this naive? I didn't say or claim (nor do I believe) that all pregnant illegal immigrants get pregnant JUST SO they can live here legally. However, it DOES happen. By the way, the Hispanic birthrate (of legal and illegal immigrants, and US citizens) is twice that of other races here in the US. Not saying that's a bad thing - just pointing out a fact.

Please don't insult my intelligence. And don't insult people who you don't know and don't know anything about. That's a disgusting assumptions about people. I'm sure you'd be screaming if they were making an assumption (right or wrong) about you. Uh why mention it about the hispanics? What does that have to do with anything? Hmm makes me wonder.

By the way, living in Texas, I know quite a number of both legal and illegal immigrants. No, I haven't asked them if they used their babies as "anchors," but I do notice a very high birth rate. I also work at a bank, and many of my Hispanic customers come to me with questions about their illegal friends and relatives' options (which when it comes to banking, are zero - because they have to have a VALID tax ID number, not a fake one, in order to do any banking). Sad, really - no loans, no mortgage options - heck, they can't even have a debit card or savings account in their own name. This is truly pitiful. THEY NEED TO BECOME LEGAL CITIZENS in order to be able to enjoy the full benefits of living in the United States.

I don't care who you supposedly know. Means nothing to me. So? Do you want me to give you a gold star or something? All of that rambling about your supposed life means nothing to me. So you just wasted time and space honestly.

Come on - which is it - undocumented CITIZENS or undocumented IMMIGRANTS? I could go with the phrase "undocumented immigrants" but they are most definitely NOT US citizens.

What's the difference? Yes they are citizen's. They live here. They pay taxes. They have jobs. Give me a break.

And while you're at it - spare me the unsolicited lessons in law. I know and understand the concept you're trying to get across. However, I am using the common vernacular and actual legal TERM in place - which is illegal aliens or illegal immigrants. I didn't pull that term out of my *** - it's legal terminology on the books. You wanna call them something else - go right ahead. You can call them Puddin'Heads if you want. Doesn't matter to me.

Sure fooled me since you didn't even know that undocumented immigrants pay taxes. No you're just using a disgusting term. You're demonizing a fellow human being. That's what you're doing.

I do believe this is a bona fide case of the pot calling the kettle black! Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle - Pot.

Spare me.

OH THE OUTRAGE!

What's all this about people on vacation? Most people on vacation don't come here crammed 100 to a trailer, or trek across 30 miles of desert in a pair of flip flops.

Way to miss the point. And yet again you being disgusting to people. I hope you don't use that mouth infront of the supposed immigrants you know. I know if that was me you were talking about I'd want nothing to do with someone who demonized me and was disgusting.

As for those lucky little babies who happen to be born a month early to vacationing mothers shrug, who do those little preciouses belong to - the parents, or the state?

Read the 14th amendment. Simple enough.

What does this scenario have to do with the discussion at hand, by the way?

I guess it went over your head.

I am not demonizing anyone. I am calling ******** on those who would immigrate here illegally and have a baby here in order to obtain rights to live here. Do you honestly believe this doesn't happen? It does. When it does, it's wrong. That's all I'm saying.

Are you reading the same comments I am? You definitely are being demonizing to people making disgusting comments about them. Just in this post I'm responding to a lone.

I'm not assuming that every single pregnant illegal IMMIGRANT got pregnant strictly for the purpose of obtaining US benefits - but I also am not so naive that I don't know it happens. Do you agree that this is the case sometimes? When it is the case, do you believe it's OK, or that it's wrong?

Yes you are. And the 14th amendment speaks for itself.

I addressed this in my post above this one. I AGREE that illegal immigrants are not represented and are disenfranchised. If you read my posts objectively rather than with your overactive knee jerking spasmodically beneath the desk, you will see that I:

Yeah I'm sure you believe that when you aren't demonizing them and making disgusting comments like about flip-flops and all that gross stuff. As I said above: please don't insult my intelligence. I think you're just fooling yourself into thinking you're empathetic. You aren't. At least not by your words here and throughout this discussion in this thread.

1. Am empathetic toward immigrants who move here to work and live and better their lives and the lives of their loved ones

Please don't insult me.

2. Want to simplify the citizenship process so that they can become fully represented by our government

Funny how you've spoken more with demonizing immigrants instead of showing that proof.

3. Want them to enjoy the full rights and responsibilities of legal citizenship

Sure sure. When you aren't making disgusting comments about them.

4. Want a better system in place in order to keep better track of who is entering, and remaining in, our country - FOR NATIONAL SECURITY PURPOSES.

Oh please. Are you still insulting my intelligence?

For the life of me, I can't see how this position is intolerant or bigoted. Like I've said, I live in Texas - where white, non hispanic people are the minority. I love it here. I love the local Hispanic culture - the people are for the most part hard working, polite, family oriented and law abiding. Great food, and a vibrant, colorful culture. I want them here - I just want them here legally.

You want to know how? Your comments above about immigrants. Your disgusting assumptions that people just get pregnant to come here and to leave everything they know and love behind. To leave other family members. Have you ever had to move? Even just to another side of town? I have and let me tell you it's not easy to give up what you had. Your friends and possibly family around. You sure are happy to demonize people. So again please spare the insults to my intelligence.

 

[LittlePinky82]

Do you see though, that they are disenfranchised?

If you "buy" a Social Security number, you are perpetually at risk of being "found out" and losing everything.

Do you think people are that stupid? You claim to know undocumented immigrants so I really wonder if you do. People who are here like that are at risk by ICE. ICE isn't kind and let things go. Especially if you do fraud like that. I highly doubt someone, especially a couple who have children with them, are going to risk everything like that. You must not think these immigrants are very smart.

Here in Texas, buying a Social Security number is very expensive, and out of reach of many illegal immigrants.

So what were you saying before about them having numbers?

With better technology and sources, these fraudulent tax ID numbers are more easily identified. Nearly every day at the bank I work at, we identify fraudulent tax ID numbers being used by people - both prospective and current customers. This is because of better systems and technology. They are given a short amount of time to validate their tax ID number, and then, if they can't, their accounts are shut down. When their accounts are shut down, their employers are notified (if they have direct deposit, which most larger and better quality companies around here have made mandatory).

And the IRS link shows that undocumented citizen's do pay taxes and how they go about it etc.

This means that they have to find work elsewhere - usually losing a good benefits package and higher pay that they have previously earned.

Also, before I worked in banking, I worked at a professional placement firm. We ran all applicants through an ID system which verified their legal right to work in the US. On a DAILY basis, we identified illegal immigrants and were unable to help them find employment.

It's sad. I want to simplify the process of citizenship so that they are not in this perilous position.

Interesting though how you point out more about demonizing the immigrants and what they're doing wrong instead of your own idea's.....

 

[Kathryn]

What's the difference? Yes they are citizen's. They live here. They pay taxes. They have jobs. Give me a break.


Spare me.


Way to miss the point. And yet again you being disgusting to people. I hope you don't use that mouth infront of the supposed immigrants you know. I know if that was me you were talking about I'd want nothing to do with someone who demonized me and was disgusting.

Read the 14th amendment. Simple enough.

I guess it went over your head.

Sure sure. When you aren't making disgusting comments about them.

Oh please. Are you still insulting my intelligence?

So again please spare the insults to my intelligence.

I don't care who you supposedly know. Means nothing to me. So? Do you want me to give you a gold star or something? All of that rambling about your supposed life means nothing to me. So you just wasted time and space honestly.

Sigh. I guess I am going to have to wade through a sea of sarcasm in search of some actual ISSUE to discuss with you. Honestly, your dripping sarcasm is really tiresome - and detracts from what could be some real discussion points. I'm not going to continue to interact with you if this is going to be your perpetual style. Of course - you may not care, and that's OK too. I'll base my decision on your next responses if you choose to make any. If they're as sarcastic as the last few, I'm not going to stoop to that level.

A little bit is fine - but when nearly every sentence is vitriolic, the impact is lessened and the tone becomes, well, simply inflammatory and sophomoric.

 

[Rakhel]

The 14th amendment is not as simple as you think.

U.S. constitution
U.S. Constitution - Amendment 14 - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

U.S. constitution with 40 pages of notes
FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment

 

[Neo-Logic]

I think that one portion of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights is especially relevant here:



The United States was one of the countries that originally strongly supported the UDHR. How times have changed.

UDHR doesn't bind anyone legally, as it is a declaration and not a treaty. But I think you do have a point as UDHR represents at the very least, the tenor and spirit of the sponsoring nations. It represents the ideals and even America sometimes falls short of its ideals, if the serious advocates of this movement are any indication.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Thomas Jefferson and James Madison would be aghast at the ruthless contempt these people have in manipulating the Constitution and the democratic process to further their own power; Abraham Lincoln would weep at their vicious disregard for the lives, well-being, and suffering of others.

I think they would likewise be proud that their experiment in pluralism has held up this well and is able to withstand even these stupid-little-blips without much of a hiccup, as I predict will be the case with this nonsense discussion by the extreme right.

 

[Neo-Logic]

Don't get me started on what would shock and dismay Thomas Jefferson and James Madison about today's US government.

I think their resurrection would be promptly followed by a double murder-suicide if they watched any episode or segment on FOX or a minute of Glen Beck's show.