Blasphemy Laws - Opinions, Please

[beenie]

If someone wants to speak "ill" of Islam, or Muhammad (pbuh), thats their opinion and it doesn't warrant any kind of punishment. Let alone of course, the problem of what constitutes exactly as "ill". The context would make a difference, but whats for sure is, there is never a death penalty. Or should never be a death penalty, to be accurate.

Punishing any of this with death in my humble opinion is bordering on insanity. Its amazing to me that this might be believed despite how our prophet (pbuh) reacted to insults towards him.

agree totally.

 

[Gharib]

If someone wants to speak "ill" of Islam, or Muhammad (pbuh), thats their opinion and it doesn't warrant any kind of punishment. Let alone of course, the problem of what constitutes exactly as "ill". The context would make a difference, but whats for sure is, there is never a death penalty. Or should never be a death penalty, to be accurate.

are you speaking about muslims doing the ill talking or the non-muslims?

Punishing any of this with death in my humble opinion is bordering on insanity. Its amazing to me that this might be believed despite how our prophet (pbuh) reacted to insults towards him.

our Prophet was sent as 'a mercy to all that exists' are you saying that we should not react to those who offend him because he never reacted to insults?
if thats what you are saying then it was wrong of Umar bin Affan radiallahu anhu, one of the ten who were promised paradise before his death, to react when people offended or insulted the prophet.

 

[beenie]

Perhaps I'm a bit unread in this department, because I can't understand KILLING someone for speaking poorly of anyone...including Prophet Muhammad or Allah Himself. God forbid...I do find it horrible...but

Don't get me wrong, I would be offended and hurt by someone bad-mouthing either (of course) but I'm really struggling with the idea of actually killing a person over it. They'll meet their fate in the afterlife. It's incomparable to these people actually committing murder (which is physical and visible), but simply uttering words...even if offensive and blasphemous? I just don't get it...

 

[Gharib]

Perhaps I'm a bit unread in this department, because I can't understand KILLING someone for speaking poorly of anyone...including Prophet Muhammad or Allah Himself. God forbid...I do find it horrible...but

Don't get me wrong, I would be offended and hurt by someone bad-mouthing either (of course) but I'm really struggling with the idea of actually killing a person over it. They'll meet their fate in the afterlife. It's incomparable to these people actually committing murder (which is physical and visible), but simply uttering words...even if offensive and blasphemous? I just don't get it...

you are not the only one, i too went through this. you have to ask yourself, is islam what Allah revealed through His Prophet, or is islam what is convenient to people?

non-muslims do not pray 5 times a day because they do not see the wisdom behind it. you ask how can there be a punishment for speaking ill of Allah and His Mesenger because you do not see the wisdom behind it. now just because the non-muslims do not see the wisdom it doesn't make them right in their choice to not pray. and just because you do not see the wisdom behind punishing the one who makes false accusations it doesn't make you right in saying that it is not right.
(please note, i'm not comparing you to a non-muslim nor am i saying that you are one, but it's the best example i can think of right now)

answer this question for me please:
What is the purpose behind Allah sending us His laws to live by? why did he send us his laws and told us to reffer every matter to His book and His Prophet so he may judge between us (since he is dead, then we judge with the qur'an and the sunnah)

 

[Bismillah]

My take on the matter

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
While Allah's Apostle was sitting, a Jew came and said, "O Abul Qasim! One of your companions has slapped me on my face." The Prophet asked who that was. He replied that he was one of the Ansar. The Prophet sent for him, and on his arrival, he asked him whether he had beaten the Jew. He (replied in the affirmative and) said, "I heard him taking an oath in the market saying, 'By Him Who gave Moses superiority over all the human beings.' I said, 'O wicked man! (Has Allah given Moses superiority) even over Muhammad I became furious
and slapped him over his face." The Prophet said, "Do not give a prophet superiority over another, for on the Day of Resurrection all the people will fall unconscious and I will be the first to emerge from the earth, and will see Moses standing and holding one of the legs of the Throne. I will not know whether Moses has fallen unconscious or the first unconsciousness was sufficient for him."
Book 3 :: Volume 41 :: Hadith 595

Once a Jew came to him and out of mischief, greeted him by saying "As-sam Alaikum" (death to you) instead of As-salamu Alaikum (peace be on you). A'isha with anger, gave a harsh reply. But he stopped her and said, "A'isha! Dont use harsh words; be polite; God likes mildness in everything."

"Two or three days prior to the return of the debt, the Messenger of God (pbuh) was attending the funeral of a man from the Ansar. Abu Bakr and Umar, Uthman and some other Companions were with the Prophet (pbuh). After he prayed the funeral prayer he sat down close to a wall, and I came towards him, grabbed him by the edges of his cloak, and looked at him in a harsh way, and said: 'O Muhammad! Will you not pay me back my loan? I have not known the family of Abdul-Mutalib to delay in repaying debts!'

I looked at Umar b. al-Khat’taab - his eyes were swollen with anger! He looked at me and said: ‘O Enemy of God, do you talk to the Messenger of God and behave towards him in this manner?! By the One who sent him with the truth, had it not been for the fear of not entering the Heavenly Gardens, I would have beheaded you with my sword! The Prophet (pbuh) was looking at Umar in a calm and peaceful manner, and he said: ‘O Umar, you should have given us sincere counseling, rather than to do what you did! O Umar, go and repay him his loan, and give him twenty Sa’a (measurement of weight) extra because you scared him!’

Zaid said: ‘Umar went with me, and repaid me the debt, and gave me over it twenty Sa’a of dates. I asked him: ‘What is this?’ He said: ‘The Messenger of God (pbuh) ordered me to give it, because I frightened you.’ Zaid then asked Umar: ‘O Umar, do you know who I am?’ Umar said: ‘No, I don’t - who are you?’ Zaid said: ‘I am Zaid b. Sa’nah.’ Umar inquired: ‘The Rabbi?’ Zaid answered: ‘Yes, the Rabbi.’ Umar then asked him: ‘What made you say what you said to the Prophet (pbuh) and do what you did to him?’ Zaid answered: ‘O Umar, I have seen all the signs of prophethood in the face of the Messenger of God (pbuh) except two – (the first) his patience and perseverance precede his anger and the second, the more harsher you are towards him, the kinder and more patient he becomes, and I am now satisfied. O Umar, I hold you as a witness that I testify and am satisfied that there is no true god worthy of being worshipped except God alone, and my religion is Islam and Muhammad (pbuh) is my Prophet. I also hold you as a witness that half of my wealth - and I am among the wealthiest people in Madeenah - I give for the sake of God to the Muslims.’ Umar said: ‘you will not be able to distribute your wealth to all the Muslims, so say, ‘I will distribute it to some of the followers of Muhammad (pbuh).’ Zaid said: ‘I said, then I will distribute (the apportioned) wealth to some of the Muslims.’ Both Zaid and Umar returned to the Messenger of God (pbuh). Zaid said to him: ‘I bear witness that there is no true god worthy of being worshipped except God alone, and that Muhammad (pbuh) is the slave of God and His Messenger.’ He believed in him, and witnessed many battles and then died in the Battle of Tabook while he was encountering the enemy - may God have mercy on Zaid.’ " (Ibn Hibban #288)

Another story that describes the demeanor of the prophet is the story of the Jewish
woman who daily left trash and thorns in front of the Prophet’s door. Each morning the
prophet woke to find trash and thorns outside his door. Rather than becoming angry,
Muhammad would step over the trash and go about his business. One day the prophet
woke up and found no trash outside his door. He became concerned for the women who
normally littered in front of his door. He wondered if perhaps something had happened
to her. Moved with concern for his agitator the prophet visited her home. The woman
was sick in bed and the prophet asked her if she was okay, in dismay she realized that
the man that she had been tormenting was actually concerned about her and with a firm
conviction she declared, “Surely, you are the prophet of God.”

"It is by the Mercy of God that you deal gently with them, for if you were severe or fierce of heart, they would have dispersed from you." [Qur'an 3:159]

Good and Evil deeds are not alike. Requite evil with good, and he who is your enemy will become your dearest friend. But none will attain this save those who endure with fortitude and are greatly favored by God. [Qur'an 41: 34-35]

Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have We made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and We shall then tell them the truth of all that they did. [Qur'an 6:108]

So be patient, [O Muhammad], as were those of determination among the messengers and do not be impatient for them. It will be - on the Day they see that which they are promised - as though they had not remained [in the world] except an hour of a day. [This is] notification. And will [any] be destroyed except the defiantly disobedient people? [Qur'an 46:35]

16 ways you can fight Cartoons & Islamophobia

 

[Starsoul]

At bismillah, what you have quoted is indeed the example of how a person should treat a person when one gets offended/insulted/mistreated, as is exemplified by the Prophet saww.

There are other many examples and ahadiths and ayah's referring to preserve the Honor of the Prophet saww and Love him dearly,with reference to blasphemy. Main thing being, that if a muslim indulges in Blasphemy, he completely renounces his faith. And a whole list of what constitutes this blasphemy, is also something we muslims must be aware of, completely rejecting the sunnah, the Prophetic way of life, constituting the ahadiths, is also desecration of a worrisome kind.

I shall post them soon IA, might take sometime.

 

[Badran]

are you speaking about muslims doing the ill talking or the non-muslims?

Both.

our Prophet was sent as 'a mercy to all that exists' are you saying that we should not react to those who offend him because he never reacted to insults?

Of course thats what i'm saying. This is what he did, and this is what i'm going to try to do. He is the example we're supposed to follow.

if thats what you are saying then it was wrong of Umar bin Affan radiallahu anhu, one of the ten who were promised paradise before his death, to react when people offended or insulted the prophet.

I don't follow Umar, i follow the prophet (pbuh). He is the primary example and the messenger from god who we are supposed to follow.

If Umar reacted violently to people who offended the prophet, then of course he was wrong.

is islam what Allah revealed through His Prophet, or is islam what is convenient to people?

Yes we all know very well the answer to that, and thats why i'm following what the prophet did, the prophet who like you said Allah revealed the message through.

just because you do not see the wisdom behind punishing the one who makes false accusations it doesn't make you right in saying that it is not right.

First, lets distinguish between a couple of things. Lets distinguish between false accusations, opinions, and insults.

Second, lets distinguish between punishing false accusations of a certain kind, and between talking about death penalty.

I'm sorry eselam, but death penalty for any of this is out of the question for me. You can't in any way shape or form no matter how hard you try explain the wisdom behind it, because there is none.

 

[Gharib]

i accept what Bismillah and Starsoul has said.
if i was to be insulted etc, then i look up to the Prophet and his way of reacting to insults. however i do not take lightly someone who insults Allah and His Mesenger.

in the Qur'an there is a punishment for the one who makes a false accusation.
if a muslim insults Allah and His Mesenger, then by default that person becomes a kaffir unless he repents, if he doesn't then the punishment for apostacy is aplied.
i do not know how it is for a non-muslim. there is a verse in the Qur'an where Allah says not to insult the Beliefs/God of the non-muslims in order that they do not do the same to us.

 

[Badran]

Then of course, there is no punishment for blasphemy. Rather, falsely accusing a person of doing a crime for example. And that punishment is not death.

As for a Muslim becoming an apostate if he insults Islam, disregarding the fact that i don't accept the notion of punishing people who leave Islam, well in that case the punishment also is not for blasphemy, but supposedly for apostasy.

 

[Gharib]

Both.

can you quote a scholar or anything of relevance to support what you are saying?

Of course thats what i'm saying. This is what he did, and this is what i'm going to try to do. He is the example we're supposed to follow.

there is a difference to someone insulting etc. you and someone insulting etc. someone else in your presence.

I don't follow Umar, i follow the prophet (pbuh). He is the primary example and the messenger from god who we are supposed to follow.

if i remember correctly, the Prophet has said to follow the 4 rightly guided Khalifs.

If Umar reacted violently to people who offended the prophet, then of course he was wrong.

so does that also make Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu wrong for waging war against the apostates. if so then Allah has made a mistake in saying that Abu Bakr would go to paradise before he had died. so now either Allah has made a mistake because Abu Bakr killed so many apostates, or Allah didn't make a mistake because Abu Bakr was obeying Allah and His Mesenger?

Yes we all know very well the answer to that, and thats why i'm following what the prophet did, the prophet who like you said Allah revealed the message through.

ok.

First, lets distinguish between a couple of things. Lets distinguish between false accusations, opinions, and insults.

well i know that there is a difference between insulting and making a false accusation, although they are almost very similar. ins't blasphemy a false accusation, or a false statement in general?

Second, lets distinguish between punishing false accusations of a certain kind, and between talking about death penalty.

what do you mean?

I'm sorry eselam, but death penalty for any of this is out of the question for me. You can't in any way shape or form no matter how hard you try explain the wisdom behind it, because there is none.

i've never said that there is a death punishment for insulting or making a false accusation against someone. i have said that if a muslim does any of this and he doesn't repent then he becomes an apostate and is to be killed for the crime of apostacy.

 

[Gharib]

Then of course, there is no punishment for blasphemy. Rather, falsely accusing a person of doing a crime for example. And that punishment is not death.

what is blasphemy, i think i'm the only one who considers it the same as a false accusation.

As for a Muslim becoming an apostate if he insults Islam, disregarding the fact that i don't accept the notion of punishing people who leave Islam, well in that case the punishment also is not for blasphemy, but supposedly for apostasy.

yes, correct. although i do not agree with you that there is no death penalty for leaving islam, the ahadith say there is.

 

[Badran]

can you quote a scholar or anything of relevance to support what you are saying?

Its pretty much the other way around. If you are proposing there is a punishment for something, you can quote those things which support that, and we can address them. Things are not by default punishable.

However, the rest of my answers to your post i think will help you see where i'm coming from.

there is a difference to someone insulting etc. you and someone insulting etc. someone else in your presence.

I agree. But what are you saying that this difference makes?

if i remember correctly, the Prophet has said to follow the 4 rightly guided Khalifs.

Above him?

We should take them as examples, but not in matters that the prophet (pbuh) has already set the standards for.

so does that also make Abu Bakr radiallahu anhu wrong for waging war against the apostates.

That has nothing to do with punishing people who make insults or say bad things about Islam.

Abu Bakr fought people who became enemies to the community. As i understand they where either refusing him becoming a Khalifa and were already going to fight or something along those lines, refused to pay Zakat and said it was only for the prophet etc.. That is not in anyway similar.

if so then Allah has made a mistake in saying that Abu Bakr would go to paradise before he had died. so now either Allah has made a mistake because Abu Bakr killed so many apostates, or Allah didn't make a mistake because Abu Bakr was obeying Allah and His Mesenger?

Like i said, Abu Bakr didn't kill apostates. Abu Bakr fought people who turned on the community. Which both have nothing to do with blasphemy.

well i know that there is a difference between insulting and making a false accusation, although they are almost very similar. ins't blasphemy a false accusation, or a false statement in general?

what is blasphemy, i think i'm the only one who considers it the same as a false accusation.

what do you mean?

Well, i considered blasphemy in a sense like the examples given in the first page.

I think we'll need to break it down into different categories.

i've never said that there is a death punishment for insulting or making a false accusation against someone. i have said that if a muslim does any of this and he doesn't repent then he becomes an apostate and is to be killed for the crime of apostacy.

yes, correct. although i do not agree with you that there is no death penalty for leaving islam, the ahadith say there is.

I guess i misunderstood what you meant, sorry about that. I'll leave punishing apostasy part for another appropriate thread.

Then so far, we agree that blasphemy doesn't warrant death penalty. You consider blasphemy coming from a Muslim to constitute apostasy however. After we break down blasphemy into several categories, i think we'll be able to discuss this better.

Lets start here. Non-Muslims for starters, insult our prophet sometimes, there is nothing that we're supposed to do about that except positive reactions which try to overcome that negative thing.

As for Muslims, you must see the danger of this generalized approach. If someone for example says that the prophet was not wise in that certain story or made the mistake of etc...... You know very well that someone will come up screaming blasphemy.

So, any opinions, should not be included. All the way up to someone claiming for example that prophet-hood does not end with Muhammad, and that he's the new prophet.

As for insults, nothing at all suggests that we should do anything about it to my knowledge.

Accusations of certain people for example, i honestly can't see how to apply that when we talk about people who died centuries ago, which allows any supposed accusation to be also a historic view.

As far as Allah goes, he doesn't need us to protect him from insults aimed towards him, or punish those who do. Not to mention that he doesn't get insulted in the first place.

 

[Gharib]

Its pretty much the other way around. If you are proposing there is a punishment for something, you can quote those things which support that, and we can address them. Things are not by default punishable.

However, the rest of my answers to your post i think will help you see where i'm coming from.

THE CARTOONISTS OF OUR BELOVED PROPHET {S.A.W} :: Muftisays Q&A

I agree. But what are you saying that this difference makes?

Once, a person was verbally abusing Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) while the Prophet (peace be upon him) was curiously watching with a smile. After taking much abuse quietly, Abu Bakr responded to a few of his comments. At this, the Prophet exhibited his disapproval, got up and left. Abu Bakr caught up with the Prophet and wondered, 'O Messenger of Allaah, he was abusing me and you remained sitting. When I responded to him, you disapproved and got up.' The Messenger of Allaah responded,
'There was an angel with you responding to him. When you responded to him, Satan took his place.' He then said ..

'O Abu Bakr, there are three solid truths: If a person is wronged and he forbears it (without seeking revenge) just for the sake of Allaah almighty, Allaah will honour him and give him the upper hand with His help; if a person opens a door of giving gifts for cementing relationships with relatives, Allaah will give him abundance; and, if a person opens a door of seeking charity for himself to increase his wealth, Allaah will further reduce his wealth.'


Reported from Abu Huraira in Mishkaah and Musnad Ahmad.

Hadith Qudsi 22:

On the authority of Abu Sa'id (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:
Let not any one of you belittle himself. They said: O Messenger of Allah, how can any one of us belittle himself? He said: He finds a matter concerning Allah about which he should say something, and he does not say [it], so Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says to him on the Day of Resurrection: What prevented you from saying something about such-and-such and such-and-such? He say: [It was] out of fear of people. Then He says: Rather it is I whom you should more properly fear.

It was related by Ibn Majah with a sound chain of authorities.

do you see what i mean?

Above him?

We should take them as examples, but not in matters that the prophet (pbuh) has already set the standards for.

i will have to look up the hadith.

That has nothing to do with punishing people who make insults or say bad things about Islam.

that was related to what you said about Umar radiallahu anhu

Abu Bakr fought people who became enemies to the community. As i understand they where either refusing him becoming a Khalifa and were already going to fight or something along those lines, refused to pay Zakat and said it was only for the prophet etc.. That is not in anyway similar.

no the people said we don't have to be muslims anymore now that the Prophet is dead. they became apostates, hence, it is called the War on Apostates.

Like i said, Abu Bakr didn't kill apostates. Abu Bakr fought people who turned on the community. Which both have nothing to do with blasphemy.

apostates are people who turn against the comunity, according to them muslims have false beliefs hence, their disbelief.

Well, i considered blasphemy in a sense like the examples given in the first page.

I think we'll need to break it down into different categories.

ok

I guess i misunderstood what you meant, sorry about that. I'll leave punishing apostasy part for another appropriate thread.

ok

Then so far, we agree that blasphemy doesn't warrant death penalty.

i do not know the proper ruling, i do know that there is a punishment. according to the link at the top, there is a death punishment.

You consider blasphemy coming from a Muslim to constitute apostasy however. After we break down blasphemy into several categories, i think we'll be able to discuss this better.

i agree.

Lets start here. Non-Muslims for starters, insult our prophet sometimes, there is nothing that we're supposed to do about that except positive reactions which try to overcome that negative thing.

i disagree. however, under certain circumstances i might agree, one bieng muslims living in a non-muslim country.

As for Muslims, you must see the danger of this generalized approach. If someone for example says that the prophet was not wise in that certain story or made the mistake of etc...... You know very well that someone will come up screaming blasphemy.

the prophets had more knowledge that everyone esle concerning that which they spoke about.

So, any opinions, should not be included. All the way up to someone claiming for example that prophet-hood does not end with Muhammad, and that he's the new prophet.

i don't get this?

As for insults, nothing at all suggests that we should do anything about it to my knowledge.

for personal insults, it is best to just keep quiet, see the hadith above.

Accusations of certain people for example, i honestly can't see how to apply that when we talk about people who died centuries ago, which allows any supposed accusation to be also a historic view.

i disagree.

As far as Allah goes, he doesn't need us to protect him from insults aimed towards him, or punish those who do. Not to mention that he doesn't get insulted in the first place.

no harm can be done to Allah.
however here is this hadith once more:

Hadith Qudsi 22:

On the authority of Abu Sa'id (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:
Let not any one of you belittle himself. They said: O Messenger of Allah, how can any one of us belittle himself? He said: He finds a matter concerning Allah about which he should say something, and he does not say [it], so Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says to him on the Day of Resurrection: What prevented you from saying something about such-and-such and such-and-such? He say: [It was] out of fear of people. Then He says: Rather it is I whom you should more properly fear.

It was related by Ibn Majah with a sound chain of authorities.

 

[Badran]

Okay, i'm going to split my reply into two parts, one sharing my opinion about what you said, and one just for the article.

 

[Badran]

Once, a person was verbally abusing Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him) while the Prophet (peace be upon him) was curiously watching with a smile. After taking much abuse quietly, Abu Bakr responded to a few of his comments. At this, the Prophet exhibited his disapproval, got up and left. Abu Bakr caught up with the Prophet and wondered, 'O Messenger of Allaah, he was abusing me and you remained sitting. When I responded to him, you disapproved and got up.' The Messenger of Allaah responded,
'There was an angel with you responding to him. When you responded to him, Satan took his place.' He then said ..

'O Abu Bakr, there are three solid truths: If a person is wronged and he forbears it (without seeking revenge) just for the sake of Allaah almighty, Allaah will honour him and give him the upper hand with His help; if a person opens a door of giving gifts for cementing relationships with relatives, Allaah will give him abundance; and, if a person opens a door of seeking charity for himself to increase his wealth, Allaah will further reduce his wealth.'


Reported from Abu Huraira in Mishkaah and Musnad Ahmad.

Hadith Qudsi 22:

On the authority of Abu Sa'id (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:
Let not any one of you belittle himself. They said: O Messenger of Allah, how can any one of us belittle himself? He said: He finds a matter concerning Allah about which he should say something, and he does not say [it], so Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says to him on the Day of Resurrection: What prevented you from saying something about such-and-such and such-and-such? He say: [It was] out of fear of people. Then He says: Rather it is I whom you should more properly fear.

It was related by Ibn Majah with a sound chain of authorities.

do you see what i mean?

Magnificent, i agree entirely. As expected it says we should say something, no indication of punishments whatsoever. We should tell people for example that its not appropriate to speak about someone behind their backs.

that was related to what you said about Umar radiallahu anhu

Whats the relation?

no the people said we don't have to be muslims anymore now that the Prophet is dead. they became apostates, hence, it is called the War on Apostates.

Thats not what i know. They declared that they were only allied with the prophet, and that now that he's dead they no longer have to do what was done before. Including no paying Zakat (like deciding you're not going to pay taxes), refusing Abu Bakr as a leader, and as i understand they were planning to fight him.

All of this was also in the context of tribes turning against him, so this is an entirely different situation.

apostates are people who turn against the comunity, according to them muslims have false beliefs hence, their disbelief.

You're mixing between merely leaving Islam as a religion, and between turning against the community.

Both are not the same, if you see the act of leaving Islam as a religion as turning against the community, or treason, i suggest we leave it at that.

But i would suggest you read this thread and the article linked in it in case that might change your opinion.

i do not know the proper ruling, i do know that there is a punishment. according to the link at the top, there is a death punishment.

The link at top is not Quran and is not Hadith. The link at top is neither Gods words or his prophet's teachings.

The link at top also happens to not say what you're saying it does. Where did it mention death penalty?

i disagree. however, under certain circumstances i might agree, one bieng muslims living in a non-muslim country.

Well, at least we agree halfway. That leaves the countries which contain a majoity of Muslims.

the prophets had more knowledge that everyone esle concerning that which they spoke about.

Sure, that doesn't mean that if someone thinks a prophet made a mistake, he should be punished, not even close to mean that. Not remotely pointing to it.

i don't get this?

I was saying that we should seperate between opinions about Islam and insults for example. Opinions like someone saying that actually Muhammad (pbuh) was not the last prophet, and that there are more, even if he said he was one.

The reason i mention this example in particular is because i know this is considered part of the things that warrants punishment.

for personal insults, it is best to just keep quiet, see the hadith above.

I agree.

i disagree.

I was not saying we shouldn't for sure, but more wondering actually. If it can be proved that someone is intentionally defaming someone's history for example, then i can see logic behind there being a punishment for that.

no harm can be done to Allah.
however here is this hadith once more:

Hadith Qudsi 22:

On the authority of Abu Sa'id (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:
Let not any one of you belittle himself. They said: O Messenger of Allah, how can any one of us belittle himself? He said: He finds a matter concerning Allah about which he should say something, and he does not say [it], so Allah (mighty and sublime be He) says to him on the Day of Resurrection: What prevented you from saying something about such-and-such and such-and-such? He say: [It was] out of fear of people. Then He says: Rather it is I whom you should more properly fear.

It was related by Ibn Majah with a sound chain of authorities.

Once again, i agree entirely. So no punishment here right?

We are supposed to apply punishments when its clearly stated, the person in question clearly guilty, unrepentant etc... Not just according to our supposed understanding of supposed slight implications.

And in this case, there is not in the least bit the slightest of a remote possibility of a punishment implied in anyway.

 

[Badran]

The Article

First thing i should note, is that the article didn't support any of its points with any verses from the Quran, or any Hadith. Also, i can't find anywhere the point where it says people should be killed over this. That said, i still want to share my opinion about certain points in it in particular.

The honour, greatness and love for Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] is deeply entrenched in the heart of every Muslim and is the core of Islam.

Right from the start, something that while in a way is a side note, it still should be considered. Isn't the love for Allah what should be the core of Islam? How is our love for the prophet the core of Islam? Where does that leave Allah?

This one of the things i noticed about many Fatwas, when addressing a certain topic, like explaining for example why is a certain punishment that cruel or whatever, they always exaggerate widely about whatever the subject they're talking about. Since here the topic is Muhammad (pbuh), the exaggeration is related to him.

Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] and every Prophet of Allah is Ma’soom (sinless). They are sent as guides for mankind and direct the people to the Oneness of Allah and His obedience.

............

In Islam, we revere every Prophet of Allah and we do not tolerate any disrespect to any Prophet of Allah.

Sure, if by tolerate he means accept it or be okay with it. However he still needs to show where does it say we should punish such things, or force people to refrain from doing them.

If a Muslim shows any disrespect to any Prophet of Allah and hurls disgraceful remarks against him, such a person comes out of the fold of Islam. In fact, according to many Fuqahaa, the apology of such a person will not be accepted.

I hope this one is obvious on its own.

One of the reasons for the prohibition of making and taking pictures of animate objects is that it leads to idolatory.

Irrelevant, but also completely false in my opinion.

The second angle of the cartoon of Rasulullah [sallallaahu alayhi wasallam] is the utmost disrespect shown to Rasulullah in the name of ‘freedom of expression’. This has caused great pain and anger to every Muslim around the world.

Once again, complete exaggeration. Why would he need to do that if he had good points to represent?

Every Muslim has a right to express his pain and anger. What else should Muslims do? Just feel the pain and keep quiet?

No, nobody said that. There are plenty of ways to react to this.

We will have to stand up to such mischief and stop it.

Stand up yeah, stop it, sure we can try. Hopefully people might be nice to stop doing that, probably not going to happen though.

Unless he's saying we should force them to stop (which he is), then i'd like to know the source for his claim. People are free to do what they want. If he thinks there is a reason we should force them to abide by our codes, or respect our special needs, he needs to present it, and he didn't.

In the rest he's addressing what Muslim minorities should do, i agree with some of his advises and disagree with some, but honestly i'm tired and don't see any point to address those.

 

[Starsoul]

" The Prophet is closer to the believers than themselves, and his wives are their mothers. And blood relations among each other have closer personal ties in the decree of Allah than the believers and the Muhajirin, except that you do kindness to those brothers. This has been written in the book."

Sura Ahzab, Verse 6.

The above verse of Surah e Ahzab (Chapter 33:6) shows the right of Allah’s Apostle Muhammad (S.A.W) on Muslims. It is clear from the word of Allah swt that Muhammad (S.A.W) has more right over our lives and closest of relations.

The following Reference of Holy Quran Chapter 4 V. 65 was revealed when a man was beheaded by the Hazrat Umar (R.A) due to non compliance of judgment given by Holy prophet Mohammad (S.A.W).

Context of Revelation (Chapter 4, V 65):

Al-Hafiz Abu Ishaq Ibrahim bin `Abdur-Rahman bin Ibrahim bin Duhaym recorded that Damrah narrated that two men took their dispute to the Prophet , and he gave a judgment to the benefit of whoever among them had the right. The person who lost the dispute said, “I do not agree.” The other person asked him, “What do you want then” He said, “Let us go to Abu Bakr As-Siddiq.” They went to Abu Bakr and the person who won the dispute said, “We went to the Prophet with our dispute and he issued a decision in my favor.” Abu Bakr said, “Then the decision is that which the Messenger of Allah issued.” The person who lost the dispute still rejected the decision and said, “Let us go to `Umar bin Al-Khattab.” When they went to `Umar, the person who won the dispute said, “We took our dispute to the Prophet and he decided in my favor, but this man refused to submit to the decision.” `Umar bin Al-Khattab asked the second man and he concurred. `Umar went to his house and emerged from it holding aloft his sword. He struck the head of the man who rejected the Prophet’s decision with the sword and killed him. Consequently, Allah revealed, the aforementioned verse. [Context taken from Tafseer Ibn-e-Kathir]

Verse:

"But No, By your Lord, they can have no faith, until they make you judge in all disputes, and find in themselves, no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission". chapter 4, verse 65.

The verse is being addressed to the Prophet, and the act of Hazrat Umar (RA) has been maintained by Allah swt.

and Verse 36,Sura Ahzab.

"It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error."

57. Verily, those who annoy Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world, and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating torment.

58. And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear on themselves the crime of slander and plain sin.

60. If the hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease (evil desires), and those who spread false news among the people in Al-Madinah, cease not, We shall certainly let you overpower them, then they will not be able to stay in it as your neighbours but a little while.

61. Accursed, wherever found, they shall be seized and killed with a (terrible) slaughter.

62. That was the Way of Allah in the case of those who passed away of old, and you will not find any change in the Way of Allah.


Furthermore, another verse,

" The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive with might, for mischief through the land, is execution, or crucifixion, or cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides; or exile from the land; that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the here-after." (Sura Al-Maidah 5:33 )

contd......

 

[beenie]

Starsoul, can you please define blasphemy for me, as you interpret it?

Also, can you define treason?

blas·phe·my   
[blas-fuh-mee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -mies.
1.
impious utterance or action concerning god or sacred things.

treason (ˈtriːz ə n)

— n
1. violation or betrayal of the allegiance that a person owes his sovereign or his country, esp by attempting to overthrow the government; high treason
2. any treachery or betrayal

Source

To me, the two seem vastly different; one is overthrowing a government (in the case of a Muslim country, that is taking arms agains religion). The other is utterance against...why would we kill someone for speech only?

Please help me understand this, because I can't seem to understand why a person would need to be killed over speech (as vile as it may be).

 

[Starsoul]

contd...

Sura Lahab. a whole Sura(chapter) about the MAn who used to slander the Prophet Muhammad SAWW.


In the name of God, the most passionate, the most merciful (بسم الله الرحمن الرحي&#1605

1. May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he,
2. His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained,
3. He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame,
4. And his wife - the carrier of firewood (thorns of Sadan which she used to put on the way of the Prophet (Peace be upon him), or use to slander him) ,
5. Around her neck is a rope of twisted fiber(masadd).


The Surah recalls an incident during the early preaching of the Holy Prophet (S.A.W). On being commanded by Allah (S.W.T) to call together his relatives and to deliver to them the Divine Message, the Holy Prophet, one day, stood on mount Safa and called the different Meccan (Makkah’s) tribes by name, the tribes of Luwayy, Murrah, Kilab and Qusayy and his near relatives, and told them that he is God’s Messenger, and that if they did not accept his Message and did not give up their evil ways, Divine punishment would overtake them. The Holy Prophet had hardly his speech, when Abu Lahab stood up and said, ‘Ruin seize thee, is it for this that thou hast called us together’ (Bukhari).

The Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The hypocrites fear lest a Surah (chapter of the Qur’aan) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: ‘(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allaah will bring to light all that you fear.’

If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]

Ahadiths:

"None of you can be a believer unless he loves me more than his parents, his children, and all the people." [Bukhari and Muslim]

"There are three signs that indicate that a person has tasted the sweetness of faith.
1) That he loves Allah and His Prophet more than anything else.
2) He loves everyone solely for the sake of Allah.
3) After accepting Islam he hates going back to unbelief as much as he hates going into the fire." [Bukhari and Muslim]

With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from ‘Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

At the conquest of Makkah:

Holy prophet Mohammad (S.A.W) announced general amnesty to all except those who were guilty of blasphemous acts and sacrilegious statements, Ibn e Khatal was one of the convict (Tareekh-e-Tabari Page 104 / History written by Al Tabari) This is evident from the following Hadith.

Sahih Bukahri Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

On the day of the Conquest, the Prophet entered Mecca, wearing a helmet on his head. When he took it off, a man came and said, “Ibn e Khatal is clinging to the curtain of the Ka’ba.” The Prophet said, “Kill him.”

"If a believer does not come to the help of another believer whose honor and dignity are under attack, then Allah will also not help him when he is most in need of Allah's help. And a believer who does come to the help of another believer whose honor and dignity are under attack, then Allah will also help him when he is most in need of Allah's help." [Abu Dawood].

If a Muslim is not supposed to be indifferent when the honor of another ordinary Muslim is under attack, how in the world can anyone expect him or her to be indifferent when the honor and dignity of the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, himself may be under attack?

Punishment in Bible for blasphemy:

The punishment for blasphemy in most of the major religions is death. It is stated in the Old Testament of the Bible, which is the authority for both the Jews and the Christians:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: [Book of Leviticus 24:16]

A reference from Hindu Scripture:

“If a man born of a lower class intentionally bothers a priest, the king should punish him physically with various forms of corporal and capital punishment that make men shudder.” [Manusmriti 9:248]

Conclusion:

It is evident from the above references that the punishment for the act of blasphemy in any religion or any form is very severe. Hence, people who are waging a campaign against the blasphemy constitution to repeal the said law, is not aligned with Islamic, Christianity and Hinduism religious law.

In a nutshell, this law should stay in place to prevent blasphemous acts. But by no means, anyone should be allowed to use this law for personal vendetta or misuse it. Procedural changes should be made with the consent of Ulema to prevent the misuse of the underlying law.

Question: “Can we not forgive him, because during his lifetime the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forgave many of those who had insulted him and he did not execute them?” The answer is:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438

Insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam, according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest. The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents and whether he is a Muslim or a kaafir. If he repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

Abu Sufyan, an unbeliever at the time, remarked to his associates: "See, the love of the companions for Muhammad (Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam) is unparalleled and unprecedented." At another time, a similar observation was made by another Quraish leader Urwah ibn Mas'ud al Thaqafi. "I have seen Ceasar and Chosroes in their pomp, but never have I seen a man honored, as Muhammad is honored by his comrades."

Sources:

Punishment for Blasphemy in the Light of Religious Scriptures « I'm No Superman!

A complete article on it, a good read.
http://www.insaf.pk/Forum/tabid/53/forumid/1/tpage/1/view/topic/postid/980
14/Default.aspx

Be Careful with Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam

 

[Starsoul]

Note: Abu Lahab ibn 'Abdul Muttalib (أبو له&#1576 was an uncle of Muhammad, and a staunch critic of Islam. He is one of the few Arabs to be mentioned by name in the Qur'an, who were alive during Muhammad's revelations.

A civilization in which nothing is sacred may have difficulty in understanding the values of a civilization in which sacred is all that counts. But if it cannot understand the logic, because of its own blinders, it will have to come to terms with the facts on the ground:

Muslims treat Prophet Muhammad saww (peace be upon him), and all the Prophets, with utmost respect and they simply cannot tolerate any willful insult and disrespect towards them.

To compromise on this issue would tantamount to compromising one's faith.

Be Careful with Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam

And Only Allah knows best.