Blasphemy

[A Vestigial Mote]

I dont judge other people based on their spiritual belief, i have enough with keeping my own spiritual life the way it should be lived, so no need to smear others for their way.

We really have no choice but to make judgments about the beliefs though. Deny it all you want... there is the reason you don't wholesale adopt every single thing anyone ever tells you as "truth." And when the "belief" is egregious enough... why not denounce it? I certainly will, and have no qualms doing so. Just as I would hope that others would keep their wits about them, and challenge any belief I might hold that can be shown to have no basis in reality. This goes for any belief - spiritually driven or not.

1:About the discussion of females, i would say that size has nothing to do with how the person are. It is always how the person are within, Morality, ethic. and so.

Did you miss entirely the idea that I believe this also?

2: There are no reason to make fun of those who are thin or those who are overweight.

Agreed. Based on that reason alone, no reason to poke a finger in anyone's direction. However, when a person makes themselves out to be a hypocrite, or is shown to hold an obvious double-standard, then there becomes reason to poke fingers... perhaps even wag them a little. The point being - people need to be told when they are being irrational, or unfair. How else are they to learn? And ridicule, while perhaps not the most gentle or kind form, is one way of accomplishing this task.

Nor is it a reason to make fun of those who struggle in life.

When you stop and think about it, in the scenario I proposed, I'm not making fun of the struggler so much as I am making light of the struggle. Attempting to point out that there is, in fact, no struggle. The constraints and foolishness are self-imposed.

 

[Spirit of Light]

We really have no choice but to make judgments about the beliefs though. Deny it all you want... there is the reason you don't wholesale adopt every single thing anyone ever tells you as "truth." And when the "belief" is egregious enough... why not denounce it? I certainly will, and have no qualms doing so. Just as I would hope that others would keep their wits about them, and challenge any belief I might hold that can be shown to have no basis in reality. This goes for any belief - spiritually driven or not.


Did you miss entirely the idea that I believe this also?

Agreed. Based on that reason alone, no reason to poke a finger in anyone's direction. However, when a person makes themselves out to be a hypocrite, or is shown to hold an obvious double-standard, then there becomes reason to poke fingers... perhaps even wag them a little. The point being - people need to be told when they are being irrational, or unfair. How else are they to learn? And ridicule, while perhaps not the most gentle or kind form, is one way of accomplishing this task.

When you stop and think about it, in the scenario I proposed, I'm not making fun of the struggler so much as I am making light of the struggle. Attempting to point out that there is, in fact, no struggle. The constraints and foolishness are self-imposed.

I do not tell you what you should or not should belive in.
I live by the guidelines in buddhism and for me to judge, or tell someone they are wrong is not my way of doing it, I can ask, "why do you belive this way" or " is it a rightroues way to say or do this?"
Then they have a chance to explain their view.
And i can not speak for other people how they should react. and i can not talk for other religions/spiritual paths

 

[Vee]

Here in the UK the crazy blasphemy law was repealed in 2008, it should never have been a crime in the first place. One should be able to say exactly what one wishes about any religion and its god, especially as they are more than likely to be human creations which don't exist in reality.

I don't think blasphemy should be considered a crime, but giving people the right to say whatever comes to their minds isn't necessarily a good idea either. Some people have seriously crazy minds and we're all better off not knowing what's going on in there. A good balance is somewhere in the middle: yes, you should have the right to express your opinions, but do it in a respectful and if possible, kind way.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I do not tell you what you should or not should belive in.
I live by the guidelines in buddhism and for me to judge, or tell someone they are wrong is not my way of doing it, I can ask, "why do you belive this way" or " is it a rightroues way to say or do this?"
Then they have a chance to explain their view.
And i can not speak for other people how they should react. and i can not talk for other religions/spiritual paths

Once again... you do make the judgments. Of this you can be certain. You may not voice them... but you have made them nonetheless - which is why you don't accept things as true and just start believing when other people inform you that you should. Hopefully you don't view that as a failure on your part. That would be a sad state of affairs indeed.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Once again... you do make the judgments. Of this you can be certain. You may not voice them... but you have made them nonetheless. Hopefully you don't view that as a failure on your part. That would be a sad state of affairs indeed.

What do you mean i judge?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

What do you mean i judge?

Alright... I see you don't like that word, and your attempts to dodge it at all costs are somewhat endearing. I'll explain using a hypothetical scenario.

Let's say a Christian comes to you and asks if you have Jesus in your life. You explain that you are Buddhist, and they inform you that you should believe in Jesus Christ for he is the only true way to be accepted into the more comfortable version of the afterlife. What do you do? Even if all you do it thank them for the information and send them on their way, the moment you chose to maintain your Buddhism you made an internal judgment on their claims and judged them as unworthy of replacing your current "spiritual path." You are (and have every right to be) judge, jury and executioner in such matters! And you have judged Christianity as unworthy, or less worthy - certainly not worthy of your continued devotion or sincere belief in its claims. You judged. Judged.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Alright... I see you don't like that word, and your attempts to dodge it at all costs are somewhat endearing. I'll explain using a hypothetical scenario.

Let's say a Christian comes to you and asks if you have Jesus in your life. You explain that you are Buddhist, and they inform you that you should believe in Jesus Christ for he is the only true way to be accepted into the more comfortable version of the afterlife. What do you do? Even if all you do it thank them for the information and send them on their way, the moment you chose to maintain your Buddhism you made an internal judgment on their claims and judged them as unworthy of replacing your current "spiritual path." You are (and have every right to be) judge, jury and executioner in such matters! And you have judged Christianity as unworthy, or less worthy - certainly not worthy of your continued devotion or sincere belief in its claims. You judged. Judged.

I would listen to them and if i was unsure of something i would happily ask them question about their faith. One of the many things one can learn from Christian people is about their religion and what made them become christians.I would tell them that i am happy they found their path in Christianity but that even i do not disagree with their religion, i would tell them honestly that personally i am a buddhist and at this moment i am happy with the teachings of the Buddha.
Just because i have taken the vow to be a buddhist does not mean i am against other religions or think they are wrong.

When i talk with people about religious belief specially if they are from other religions then what i follow, i am very carefull to not have any intntion in my mind to convert them to buddhism, but sometimes i can even learn from them. specially if they have been following their belief longer then i have been a Buddhist.
There are no reason why i should judge their belief or their religion. they either was born in to their religious belief or they converted in to it when they become adult.

In the town i live in Norway there are many different religions and belief systems and often we have discussion between each others, but we rspect each others beliefs and views without judging

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I would listen to them and if i was unsure of something i would happily ask them question about their faith. One of the many things one can learn from Christian people is about their religion and what made them become christians.I would tell them that i am happy they found their path in Christianity but that even i do not disagree with their religion, i would tell them honestly that personally i am a buddhist and at this moment i am happy with the teachings of the Buddha.
Just because i have taken the vow to be a buddhist does not mean i am against other religions or think they are wrong.

When i talk with people about religious belief specially if they are from other religions then what i follow, i am very carefull to not have any intntion in my mind to convert them to buddhism, but sometimes i can even learn from them. specially if they have been following their belief longer then i have been a Buddhist.
There are no reason why i should judge their belief or their religion. they either was born in to their religious belief or they converted in to it when they become adult.

In the town i live in Norway there are many different religions and belief systems and often we have discussion between each others, but we rspect each others beliefs and views without judging

To my mind, it is judging, regardless. You have come to the opinion (i.e. judgment) that their beliefs are not worthy of supplanting your own - even as they may insist that they are worthy. You can play it off as that you're just "happy with Buddhism" and don't see a reason to change... but that's exactly where the judgment came in to play... you took the opinions you have of what they were peddling and you couldn't find reasons to adopt it - as in, the reasons the Christian gave you weren't good enough. I don't exactly understand why this seems like such a negative thing to you. We literally engage in this sort of behavior all the time. You judge one food item to better fit your palate at a given moment over another. You judge to use one car-repair shop to fix your car over another because you like their service better - i.e. you have judged others as being not as good. This is not a negative thing. It is a necessary tool, and you'd be a mess without it.

 

[Spirit of Light]

To my mind, it is judging, regardless. You have come to the opinion (i.e. judgment) that their beliefs are not worthy of supplanting your own - even as they may insist that they are worthy. You can play it off as that you're just "happy with Buddhism" and don't see a reason to change... but that's exactly where the judgment came in to play... you took the opinions you have of what they were peddling and you couldn't find reasons to adopt it - as in, the reasons the Christian gave you weren't good enough. I don't exactly understand why this seems like such a negative thing to you. We literally engage in this sort of behavior all the time. You judge one food item to better fit your palate at a given moment over another. You judge to use one car-repair shop to fix your car over another because you like their service better - i.e. you have judged others as being not as good. This is not a negative thing. It is a necessary tool, and you'd be a mess without it.

If you feel i judging others just because i choose to be a buddhist you are welcome to do so. But i am silent in my mind when discussing religious belief with others. meaning there is no jusgmental thoughts to arise judment toward them.
I have nothing agains any religion, anyone can follow what feels right to them, I can only follow the teaching of Buddha and be silent in mind toward others.
But if others want to judge me that is fine too.

 

[dianaiad]

TRUE!!!

One should not be put in jail for saying what one wishes about a religion or its god. However, one had better have a very thick skin, because when someone says insulting things about my religion and my God, I'm quite likely to return the favor.

I HAVE been called (because of my religion) a 'Satanist,' an occultist, a pedophile follower, quite literally a murderer of babies, stupid, illiterate, a lock step cultist, ...well, you name it I've been called that, and my beliefs have been characterized in about every negative way possible...

Here in the US we used to have a principle in law called 'fighting words." Basically it meant that there were some insults so egregious, some words so unacceptable, that a fist planted with force to the nose was considered an appropriate and acceptable response.

This is no longer a good legal defense. However, 'incitement to riot' and "incitement' to violence, or 'incitement' to commit a crime is still a crime in and of itself. More than one 'internet bully' has found that out to his/her cost.

It seems, then, that while I would get arrested for slugging someone who insulted me...and my religion...to that degree, the person who does his level best to incite that reaction might will find himself in front of the judge.

Of course, there is no danger of you (as an example) getting a fist in the nose for being incredibly obnoxious about someone else's religion on this debate forum. Nobody can reach that far, I suppose.

On the other hand, one MIGHT consider what such language might prompt some true believer to do...and figure that 'inciting' that response might not be wise. Or courteous. Or reasonable.

...........or do what you want it to do.

Unless you WANT to incite a response like that, in which case, well.....

Just try using the 'golden rule,' which seems to be a part of most, if not all, human moral/ethical systems.

 

[BubbaGumps]

One should not be put in jail for saying what one wishes about a religion or its god. However, one had better have a very thick skin, because when someone says insulting things about my religion and my God, I'm quite likely to return the favor.

I HAVE been called (because of my religion) a 'Satanist,' an occultist, a pedophile follower, quite literally a murderer of babies, stupid, illiterate, a lock step cultist, ...well, you name it I've been called that, and my beliefs have been characterized in about every negative way possible...

Here in the US we used to have a principle in law called 'fighting words." Basically it meant that there were some insults so egregious, some words so unacceptable, that a fist planted with force to the nose was considered an appropriate and acceptable response.

This is no longer a good legal defense. However, 'incitement to riot' and "incitement' to violence, or 'incitement' to commit a crime is still a crime in and of itself. More than one 'internet bully' has found that out to his/her cost.

It seems, then, that while I would get arrested for slugging someone who insulted me...and my religion...to that degree, the person who does his level best to incite that reaction might will find himself in front of the judge.

Of course, there is no danger of you (as an example) getting a fist in the nose for being incredibly obnoxious about someone else's religion on this debate forum. Nobody can reach that far, I suppose.

On the other hand, one MIGHT consider what such language might prompt some true believer to do...and figure that 'inciting' that response might not be wise. Or courteous. Or reasonable.

...........or do what you want it to do.

Unless you WANT to incite a response like that, in which case, well.....

Just try using the 'golden rule,' which seems to be a part of most, if not all, human moral/ethical systems.

Here in the US, there would need to be intent to incite in order for a charge like that to be made. For example, if I were to just offer my opinion about some issue in public and for whatever reason it ended up causing people to argue with each other and go bonkers and riot, I would not be charged with inciting a riot. It would have to be proven that my goal and aim was to incite others. It is usually pretty clear when the goal is to incite--e.g...giving a speech expressing an opinion and lacing it with calls for violence or explicitly telling people they should break windows in protest etc .If people went out and created havoc after you gave this speech, you would likely be charged with inciting.

As far as someone punching someone else over words or arguments, it almost always falls on the person who committed the assault unless it can be clearly shown the person who was assaulted was clearly trying to provoke such a response and the person did everything he/she could to remove themselves first.....a good example is Buzz Aldrin decking Bart Sibrel, the moon conspiracy theorist. Sibrel kept following Aldrin around with a camera in a plaza telling him he was a liar and phony. Just expressing that opinion in itself is free speech. But Aldrin kept trying to get away from the guy and Sibrel kept getting in his face. Sibrel finally cornered him near an exit to a building and told him he was a coward. Aldren let loose and decked him. Prosecutor declined to charge Aldrin as he stated the video clearly shows the goal was to provoke Aldrin and he tried to get away and Sibrel kept coming back.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'll never understand the UK and its hysterical laws that give special protections to fundamentalist Islam. For instance, sharia courts are still allowed in Britain, but a Catholic white girl who cricitized Islam is banned from the country. Islam and Islamic men are always given a free pass for bigotry, while the blame is always placed on white men (and in some cases white women) for all the world's problems.

Wait what? Was she from that country? When did this happen?! Was she encouraging people to bash Muslims or something?
I'm clearly out of the loop on this one.

 

[syo]

I HAVE been called (because of my religion) a 'Satanist,' an occultist, a pedophile follower, quite literally a murderer of babies, stupid, illiterate, a lock step cultist, ...well, you name it I've been called that, and my beliefs have been characterized in about every negative way possible...

I say we critisise God and NOT fellow humans. People shouldn't attack you, a human. God must be the target and not you.

 

[Rational Agnostic]

Wait what? Was she from that country? When did this happen?! Was she encouraging people to bash Muslims or something?
I'm clearly out of the loop on this one.

She held "Islamophobic" and "racist" views (even though the dimwits don't seem to understand that Islam is not a "race"). Her name is Britanny Pettibone I believe. ANd no she is American, not British.

 

[Muffled]

Here in the UK the crazy blasphemy law was repealed in 2008, it should never have been a crime in the first place. One should be able to say exactly what one wishes about any religion and its god, especially as they are more than likely to be human creations which don't exist in reality.

I believe in a God fearing state a blasphemy law is necessary just as in the USA which is a secular state there is a law against talking about the overthrow of the government.

 

[Muffled]

And, unfortunately, way too many in other places that would disagree. But we can go a bit further. Should it be a crime to 'insult' a religion? or religious beliefs? Rude? Sure! A crime? That's another thing.

I believe insults are a gray area. An insult could be blasphemous or not. For instance there are those who think God is cruel but there is no Word that denies that possibility. Justice is that way sometimes.

 

[Muffled]

I agree

but speak straightforward and a believer might call you an infidel
draw sword
and try to cut your head off

I believe I was just muffled and in some cases muzzled.

 

[Polymath257]

I believe insults are a gray area. An insult could be blasphemous or not. For instance there are those who think God is cruel but there is no Word that denies that possibility. Justice is that way sometimes.

Well, for example, the Biblical God has been described as one of the most evil beings ever described. Should such a statement be illegal? How about if the same statement is made about Allah in the Koran? Should it be illegal to burn the Bible or Koran while speaking out against them?

 

[dianaiad]

I say we critisise God and NOT fellow humans. People shouldn't attack you, a human. God must be the target and not you.

Why attack God? If He exists, then the quest should be to find which version of Him is the closest to Who He (or She) is. If He doesn't, then attacking a non-existent entity seems to be a tad bit futile.

..........and either way, attacking God is attacking the beliefs of the believer...which is what was happening when others called me (and those who believe as I do) all those names.

Disagreeing with the beliefs of someone? Absolutely. With courtesy. With understanding. With empathy...even atheists believe in weird things, sometimes incredibly incorrect and silly things. Might not be 'religion' based, but shoot...I've been around too long to figure that humans have it all figured out.

Someone is going to come along with a new idea, and be ridiculed for it. A lot of someones will. Some of those folks will end up being right, and then anybody who disagrees will be ridiculed. that has happened to a great many scientists, atheist or not.

We're just people.

Of course, I'm right and everybody else is wrong when they disagree with me. Just thought I'd get that one in there.

 

[Apologes]

Indeed, insulting someone's God and/or religion shouldn't be a crime. It is rather petty though.