Book of Mormon

[Clear]

POST TWO OF THREE (cont'd from post #18).

Rather than skip on to other issues brought up before we even seriously discussed the first one Jaberwoky mentioned, I wanted to continue the to show that the ancient doctrine WAS that men were sent to earth specifically to develop characteristics (divine characteristics) so as to become more like the Lord God. Thus, while Jaberwocky is aghast at this doctrine, I am amazed and impressed that the LDS parallel ancient Judao-christian doctrines. It is the same phenomenon as I mentioned with Kepi. Whether we are "aghast" or "impressed", is Often, NOT due to truth, but due to varying perceptions and beliefs and bias and data sets we’ve been exposed to.

Even the "rules" we apply to others may be affected by our bias. For example: If Kepi was correct regarding Pauls claim to apostasy by ancient Christians, then we modern Christians may just as easily have inherited the apostatized version of beliefs and bias as the correct one. Still, it is human nature to try to hold on to what we inherited from our parents or society.

A second example is Kepi's implication in post #20 that changes made to sacred texts somehow discredits them. If we apply this principle fairly, then it discredits the Old and New Testaments as much as other sacred texts. Does the rule maker then feel obligated to follow their own rules? It is very difficult to view things objectively or to even come up with objective rules as to what we will believe. I think this difficulty in being objective applies to the ancient doctrine that men may become more like God, or "God-like".


In post #18, I re-introduced the ancient doctrine that many divine beings existed that were like the Lord God despite never equaling the LORD God, who was over all other beings. Thus the writer of Exodus is able to exclaim : “Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders? Ex 15:11". The doctrinal language that reflects this belief of God as a “LORD among the gods” is woven throughout much of the early literature. This is an important historical context underlying early Judao-Christian thought which allows ancient texts and principles to make wonderful sense. If I could quote from other Christian and Jewish texts the point becomes more obvious.

For example :

“.... he will magnify the God of all the divine beings who are appointed for righteousness seven times with seven worlds of wondrous exaltation.” (4Q403 frag ` Col.1)

“Praise the most high God, you who are exalted among all the wise divine beings. Let those who are holy among the godlike sanctify the glorious King, He who sanctifies by His holiness each of His holy ones. You princes of praise among all the godlike, praise the God of majestic praise. Surely the glory of His kingdom resides in praiseworthy splendor; therein are held the praises of all the godlike…Lift his exaltation on high, you godlike among the exalted divine beings -His glorious divinity above all the highest heavens. Surely He is the utterly divine over all the exalted princes, King of kings over all the eternal councils.” (SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)

“…, you godlike beings of utter holiness; rejoice in his divine kingdom. For He has established utter holiness among the eternally holy, that they might become for Him priests of the inner sanctum in His royal temple, ministers of the Presence in His glorious innermost chamber. In the congregation of all the wise godlike beings, and in the councils of all the divine spirits, He has engraven his precepts to govern all spiritual works and his glorious laws for all the wise divine beings, that sage congregation honored by God, those who draw near to knowledge….eternal, and from the font of holiness to the temple of utter holiness…priests who draw near, ministers of the Presence of the utterly holy King…His glory. Precept by precept they shall grow strong, to be seven eternal councils; for He established them for Himself to be the most holy of those who minister in the Holy of Holies…They shall become mighty thereby in accordance with the council…the Holy of Holies, priests of …these are the princes of …who take their stand in the temples of the king… (4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)

“The song for the second Sabbath, contains a similar description of Godlike beings worshiping the “King of the godlike beings”, that is, the Lord God. : priestly angels and compare the poor quality of human worship in comparison of that of the angels&#8221 –

“wonderfully to praise Your glory among the wise divine beings, extolling Your kingdom among the utterly holy. They are honored in all the camps of the godlike beings and feared by those who direct human affairs, wondrous beyond other divine beings and humans alike….They sing wonderful psalms according to their insights throughout the highest heaven, and declare the surpassing glory of the King of the godlike beings in the stations of their habitation….

“the king of the godlike beings…when they come with the godlike beings of …together for all of their assemblies…their might for all the powerful warriors…for all the rebellious councils.” (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)

It is apparent from these doctrines that, though multiple beings are "like God" (i.e. “God- like&#8221, they are never equals to the Lord God and are always subordinate to him; all of them are at HIS command and none of them have the level of knowledge that he has.

For example :

“Surely the weapons of warfare belong to the God of divine beings…the armies of heaven and the wonder of all the divine spirits shall run at His command… But the victory shall belong to the God of divine beings. To the King of the wise godlike beings belong all matters of knowledge; indeed the God of knowledge causes all that happens forever. ..None of the divine beings understand what he has designed. (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment )

Paul reminds us of this same principle of subordinance : "For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. (Corinthians 8:5-6). Whether there are many Gods or not, the position of LORD God, the Father of all, is singular. Regarding the “wise divine beings” it is said that “They neither run from the ‘Way nor reverence any thing not a part of it; they consider themselves neither too exalted for his realm nor too humble for his commissions." (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment). Despite their divinity bestowed upon them and the wisdom they have gained, they are still all subject to the Lord God.

Still, they are honored to the extent that they are Godlike in morals and knowledge and dishonored to the extent that they are like Lucifer.

“ Bless the God of the godlike beings, you who inhabit the highest heaven…knowledge of the eternal godlike beings “ (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)

Remember, these were orthodox teachings to the ancients who wrote and used such texts (though the moderns have abandoned such teachings). If the Copper Scroll discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls is authentic, it placed these texts in the very mainstream of Judaic doctrines and underlie the ancient temple orthodoxy.

The divine “God-like” beings were not all simply arch-angels, but according to the ancient doctrines, some of them were the spirits of men. The discourse on the Soul of Man in the Haggadah describes the circumstances of placing the pre-existent spirit of man (or woman) into the embryo (according to their doctrinal understanding). When the spirit is told to enter the sperm or embryo the spirit is reluctant (perhaps scared to continue...) And the pre-mortal spirit then asks :

“Why do you now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of your glory?” God consoles her : “The world which I shall cause you to enter is better than the world in which you have lived hitherto, and when I created you, it was only for this purpose.” ( The Haggadah -The Soul of Man)

when the soul enters against her will (wisdom and souls are expressed as female anciently), “the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother.” where her body is nurtured.


POST THREE OF THREE FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST THREE OF THREE


However, the pre-birth spirit is shown many things which prepare her for her life.

“In the morning an angel carries her to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crowns upon their heads. The angel then says to the soul, “Do you know who these are?” She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy.....

“ These righteous, glorified individuals with crowns were MEN AND WOMEN who had lived and died PREVIOUSLY.


It is important to note that the spirit is shown those who were, like her, introduced from a pre-mortal sphere into mortality and who were to learn to live gain moral knowledge, learn to live moral law and good lives and then, if successful, returned to live in bliss, having gained knowledge and characteristics they did not have when they left. THESE men and women became “pious ones” who return to God more like him (more God-like) than when they left. Each soul is given the same promise that they are able to become worthy to become one of the "pious ones" themselves.

“ .... “These whom you behold here were formed, like you, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God’s Torah and his commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which you see them enjoy. Know, also, you will one day depart from the world below, and if you will observe God’s Torah, then will you be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, you will be doomed to the other place.” (The Haggadah - The Soul of Man)

Thus, if they are successful, they take their place with other pious and Godlike ones.

“At their wondrous stations are spirits, clothed with embroidery, a sort of woven handiwork, engraven with splendid figures. In the midst of what looks like glorious scarlet and colors of utter holy spiritual light, the spirits take up their holy stand in the presence of the King – splendidly colored spirits surrounded by the appearance of whiteness. This latter glorious spiritual substance is like golden handiwork, shimmering in the light.” (THE SONGS OF THE SABBATH SACRIFICE, 4Q400-407, 11Q17, Masada Fragment)

It is by this process within mortality that “He brings some of the sons of the world near, to be reckoned with him in the council of the gods as a holy congregation, stationed for eternal life and in the lot with His holy ones...” (THE AGES OF THE WORLD 4Q180-181). The ancient doctrine was that man was not destined to simply surround god as cattle, singing praises, but to achieve to a celestial knowledge and character. This is what the psalm-writer also testifies :

“That bodies, covered with worms of the dead, might rise up from the dust to an eternal council; from a perverse spirit to your understanding. That he might take his position before you with the eternal hosts and spirits of truth to be renewed with all that shall be and to rejoice together with those who know.” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)

The thoroughly Christian Abbaton history uses language specific to this context. Jesus tells the apostles :

“He put breath into him in this way; He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, “Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity.” And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, “My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.” (Abbaton)

Adam was not given God’s divinity, but his TYPE of divinity. Adam doesn’t ever expect to become THE God, but rather if he obeys the torah, then he becomes God-Like. In this manner, it was taught that man was “created from the dust for the eternal council…- and for man, you have allotted an eternal destiny with the spirits of knowledge…” (THANKSGIVING PSALMS - 1QH, 1Q35, 4Q 427–432)
This doctrinal context underlies early texts.For example, in the early christian text, Testament of Adam, Eve tells her children :

“He spoke to me about this in Paradise after I picked some of the fruit in which death was hiding: ‘Adam, Adam do not fear. You wanted to be a god; I will make you a god, not right now, but after a space of many years. I am consigning you to death, and the maggot and the worm will eat your body.’3...But after a short time there will be mercy on you because you were created in my image, and I will not leave you to waste away in Sheol. For your sake I will be born of the Virgin Mary. For your sake I will taste death and enter the house of the dead....4'And after three days, while I am in the tomb, I will raise up the body I received from you. And I will set you at the right hand of my divinity, and I will make you a god just like you wanted. And I will receive favor from God, and I will restore to you and to your posterity that which is the justice of heaven.” (TESTAMENT OF ADAM 3:2-4)

This context changes the meaning of Jesus’ answer to his detractors when he says “ Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (Jn 10:34) In the DDS DISCOURSE ON THE EXODUS AND CONQUEST 4q374 , the ancient Jewish writer refers to Moses as “a god over the mighty” by saying “He planted His chosen in a land desirable above all others, in …He made him as a god over the mighty; as a compass for pharaoh”. The description of Moses as a God, did not make him THE God, but, for the ancient commentarist, it was NOT an inappropriate doctrinal statement. It may have been the most descriptive and most applicable term to use.

This concept of learning to learn moral characteristics which will allow men to become more like god confers upon mortality the purpose of education and testing. This is (I think) why Ignatius tells the Ephesians : “I speak to you as my fellow students. For I need to be trained by you in faith, instruction, endurance, and patience.” Ig-eph 3:1. He knows he will become more like God through a process of Imitation. Thus he taught the saints of ephesus : “Ye are imitators of God, once you took on new life” I-eph 1:1 This was the same theme the angels proclaimed in the Rechabite ascension text :

“To us the holy angels of God announce (both) the incarnation of the Word of God, who (is) from the holy virgin, the mother of God, and all those things which (he) provides and perfects and endures for the sake of the salvation of mortals.....9f Have regard to us in your hidden thoughts, be imitators of our way of life, pursue peace, cherish the love (that is) unchangeable, and love purity and holiness. (HISTORY OF THE RECHABITES 12:9a and 9f)

My point is that when one is plugged into such early histories, then the LDS doctrine is amazingly impressive and represents comfortable and obvious parallels to the ancient teaching. Without those sorts of refererences and context, the LDS doctrines do not jibe with modern christianity. However, the LDS have always claimed that their doctrines were a restoration of ancient doctrines.

I apologize if the logic doesn’t flow well, I’ve been writing between appointments at work and haven’t had time to give this subject the attention it’s due. I do NOT think this particular doctrine (i.e. that man may become like God) is a salvific doctrine, but was probably brought up for shock value rather than salvific import or any relation to the OP. I think the ancient salvific Christian doctrines and the LDS parallels are much, much, much more important to us. (I don’t even think this doctrine is IN the Book of Mormon per se). However, I continue to be so very impressed with the LDS claim to be a restoration of ancient salvific doctrines for the reasons I’ve mentioned.



Clear
twtzsiis

 

[Clear]

It’s been eight days since Jaberwocky and I posted our differing views on this subject (his post was #13 and mine were # 18, 21 and 22 if you need to review). No one has commented regarding the doctrine of "gods many, and lords many” Paul referred to (Corinthians 8:5-6); nor any comments regarding the ancient doctrine that “He brings some of the sons of the world near, to be reckoned with him in the council of the gods ...... in the lot with His holy ones...” (4Q180-181) then I thought I could move on to the next doctrine of concern to Jaberwockybruno.

Jaberwocky mentions he is disturbed by the following doctrine taught by the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints :

“LDS teaches a person has a chance to be saved after death, hence the practice of baptizing the dead into the church.

. As with the earlier ancient christian doctrine, this doctrine of individuals, ALL individuals having a chance to be saved beyond the grave IF they lacked sufficient opportunity to be saved in this life which disturbs Jaberwocky, yet amazes me, and draws me closer with it’s justice and authenticity. The modern embrace of this ancient doctrine by ANY group, and the existence of a specific mechanism by which this doctrine is accomplished in our day is exciting to see)

Again, Jaberwocky and I are traveling in opposite doctrinal directions based on our personal data and biases. He is in the process of dismissing the doctrines of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (mormons), while I am in the process of embracing the very same doctrines he dismisses. I still wonder if it isn’t differing data sets and prior bias that is responsible for this difference (or lack of better data in both of us). At this point, this is the easiest explanation for me as to why he is repelled and I am so attracted by the same doctrine.

I DID grow up in a native christian church that DID teach the common modern theory that all men must “accept” Jesus before they died, otherwise they were consigned to a terrible fire-filled hell. The Christians in my congregations were uncomfortable with this doctrine because of the inherent and obvious unfairness of punishing billions of individuals who died, NEVER HAVING HAD THE CHANCE to accept nor reject Jesus in this life (i.e. those who lived and died without hearing of Jesus, the infant who died, the mentally infirm who died, etc.). Many of us did not truly believe what our pastors taught, but we had no specific or concrete alternative to offer. The Clear, specific and concrete LDS teaching that ALL are given sufficient chance for this knowledge and the accurate mechanism accomplishing this is, to me, another attraction to this LDS doctrine, which I believe mirror the ancient doctrines on this specific subject.


Before I explain why I think the LDS mirror early Christian beliefs on baptism and the relationship of the living and the dead who are in Sheol (i.e. the place where bodiless spirits generally remain between death and resurrection, otherwise knows as “Hades”, or “spirit world” and other names) etc, (IF I understand the LDS belief on this specific subject), do the LDS want me to start another thread or leave the data in this thread? (Since it really doesn’t have to do with the Book of Mormon, but was simply brought up in this thread...?) I can leave the subject here, but there is some advantage to placing it in a separate thread...and I feel like it isn’t really related to the OP.


NOTE: After the above post, I simply proceeded to start another thread so as not to contaminate this thread with even more data unrelated to the OP. The thread is called : "THE LDS DOCTRINE OF THE GOSPEL BEING TAUGHT TO THE DEAD"


Clear
tzacfuuf

 

[jabberwockybruno]

This whole thing started from a side comment I made to a post made by Watchmen.

We can get back to talking about the BoM if you want. Like I've said earlier, I don't believe it because its historicity. It has good stories and I can see how they can be positively inspiring, but it's not good enough to make me want to become a Mormon.

 

[Watchmen]

This whole thing started from a side comment I made to a post made by Watchmen.

We can get back to talking about the BoM if you want. Like I've said earlier, I don't believe it because its historicity. It has good stories and I can see how they can be positively inspiring, but it's not good enough to make me want to become a Mormon.

And did you ever start another thread?

 

[jabberwockybruno]

It was started by Clear. It's in the general Christian chat, I believe.

 

[Watchmen]

It was started by Clear. It's in the general Christian chat, I believe.

Thanks - I'll see if I can find it.

 

[Doodlebug02]

Hey you guys. I wanted to post this video of an incredible talk by Jeffrey R. Holland. He is an apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We believe that apostles are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, just as the apostles in the New Testament. In this talk, Elder Holland bears an incredibly powerful testimony of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. It's on youtube in two parts: Part One. Part Two.

I'd love to hear how you feel after watching it if any one wants to share.

No thanks. The Book of Mormon is false. I don't need to watch a video to try and convince me otherwise.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

No thanks. The Book of Mormon is false. I don't need to watch a video to try and convince me otherwise.

That's fine. You don't have to. But I would still be interested in what you think about this clip. I would like to hear how it comes across from your perspective. If you don't want to take the time to watch the whole thing, you could cut to the end of the second part for the most interesting stuff.