born again?

[truseeker]

But back to the 3rd chapter of John where Jesus says these people who born again or born from above or whatever way you want to translate the words, they are supposed to be invisible like the wind. All these people waving their arms in church and claiming to be born again are not invisible so are they really born again?

 

[kingsherald]

But back to the 3rd chapter of John where Jesus says these people who born again or born from above or whatever way you want to translate the words, they are supposed to be invisible like the wind. All these people waving their arms in church and claiming to be born again are not invisible so are they really born again?

What this means is that you cannot tell from the outward appearance who is born of the Spirit and who is not, because the new birth is an inward operation of the Holy Spirit, whereby God regenerates, or gives new spiritual life to a spiritually dead man, so that he is given a new heart with new desires, chiefly to know and love God, to obey God, to believe God in all things He has spoken in His word.

Notice also that while you cannot see the wind, you hear the sound of it. The Spirit of God gives those whom He rebirths understanding of spiritual things, so the regenerated man speaks with an understanding of spiritual things, which is the understanding of the Biblical message as God intended. So the regenerated man sees Jesus Christ and runs to Him, to be saved from his sins.

 

[blackout]

I know my post will get glossed over
as nothing of import,
but
my experience of "born again" was a MAJOR Paradigm Shift,
in which I LITERALLY awoke to a WHOLLY NEW experience of Life.

It leveled every "church" experience of christianity I'd ever known
to nothing.
The Power of this HEIGHTNED/(above) reality experience
lasted in dynamic intensity for months,
and caused the most extreme and real changes in my life,
and in me
that I have ever known.
At the time, I labeled it as the experience of
God's Kingdom on Earth.
or
The Kingdom of God in my Midst... in the Midst of Me.
"Now". (in the present moment)
Within.

My ensuing baptism was RESULTANT
on my New Birth, my new Eyes,
my New Heightened Experience of Being.
(not the other way around)
I dove head first into our swimming pool,
for the first time in MANY years.
I took a leap of faith,
and just dove in....
and WHY the water in our pool was
LIVING/Alive/Energized/Unearthly that summer
would be a WHOLE nother story.
But that, WAS my baptism.

In the end,
I was not allowed
by other christians
to call mySelf a christian.
MY Christianity... was NOT... christianity.
So they all said.
So finally I dropped the label altogether.

It's all good though,
because signs and symbols
are just things
that point to other things,
and a limited VOCABULARY of symbolism
(especially, coupled with a limited pre'scription
of what that vocabulary is "supposed to" signify)
serves only to limit you.
Once you know how to READ Life,
read Your Own life,
read life Signs,
the limited symbolisms of this pre'scribed "system" or that
only serve to become as limitations,
of meaning and significance
to our own sense'abilities and in'tuition.

Anyhow,
ANY Major Paradigm Shift/
Heightened Reality Experience
will result in a "born again" experience.
It IS a born again experience.
It changes your ENTIRE perception of life and being.

In another sense though,
every moment of our existence
gives birth
to the next.
If we live AWAKE and OBSERVANT
of what surrounds us in each moment,
we also
are Alive to that Eternal Rebirth
that is the way of Life itSelf.

Total Submersion in Life...
IS baptism.

 

[Oberon]

But back to the 3rd chapter of John where Jesus says these people who born again or born from above or whatever way you want to translate the words, they are supposed to be invisible like the wind. All these people waving their arms in church and claiming to be born again are not invisible so are they really born again?

1) the word isn't wind. Or rather, it is wind but again we are dealing with multiple meanings. Ancient cultures tended to associate air with what they conceived of as immaterial parts of the experience of being human (soul, spirit, etc). Hence words like animus, psuche, pneuma, etc, refer on the one hand to things like breath or wind, but also to things like soul and spirit. John didn't mean wind he meant wind/spirit.

2) Where does John's Jesus say invisible?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Friend truseeker,


Dharmic religions use the words *born again* for those who have had a satori or samadhi in other words those who have understood who THEY are.
That is when they are BORN for the first time as their life journey starts from there on as a revolution.
Till than man is in the hands of evolution and mechanically lives their lives satisfying their DESIRES.
To be born again is to start dropping all desires

Love & rgds

Oh sensei of the still, we of the occident are culturally restless. Pardon this unworthy one's cultural translation...

It is truth, but it is ritual. I have seen three forms:

Acceptance and servitude: The Spirit comes, there is alignment; rest of days seem to be filled with the joy of serving others - the "body" only returns "on the sabbath," when the needs of the flesh must be met, or the shell shall wither and die.

Acceptance and intent: The Spirit and the Body form a dance of attraction and repulsion. A balance between cultural commitments of job and family and spiritual commitments of wholeness and harmony. Nature prefers balance. Some are called to teach, most are called to do.

Unacceptance: The Spirit and Body cannot, for whatever reason, align; and words become ritual and hypocrisy.

There is no "right" path, there is your path; and you will know when you are on that path.

 

[waitasec]

That's only assuming that in John Jesus really meant "born from above" not "born again." This doesn't appear to be the case, however. Whether Jesus was speaking aramaic, hebrew, latin, or german, the metaphor he was using could easily be misunderstood simply because of it's metaphorical nature.

In other words, Ehrman's argument runs as follows:

1) Jesus spoke aramaic
2) In the relevent text, he uses a greek word with two meanings
3) Jesus means "from above" (one meaning) but nicodemus interprets it as "again" (another meaning).
4) This misunderstanding would not have occured in Aramaic, where no word both means "again" and "from above" and therefore either the conversation was in greek (unlikely) or didn't happen.

The issue, however, is that premise 3 doesn't appear to be correct. The issue wasn't with using one of two meanings but using one meaning metaphorically. In this case, the aramaic would have had the same issue.




I think you misunderstand me. Let's look at translations for a minute. In English, there are seperate words for "word" or "story" or "account" or "narrative." In Greek, all of these could be translated as logos or mythos. If I were translating from English to greek, it is easy to imagine a situation where I meant "listen to my word" not "listen to my story" and this distingtion was lost in the greek translation, which might be rendered both times into the same sentence: akoue ton mython mou
The point is, just because the translation has a certain ambiguity doesn't mean anything unless the ambiguity is part of the narrative. If Jesus had said a word in greek with two meanings, and Nicodemus understood one of them when Jesus meant another, this would matter. If Jesus uses a word which just happens to mean to things, but the misunderstanding results from something else (metaphor), then this only matters if this metaphor is impossible in Aramaic. It isn't.

i understand what you are saying but when i look up "again" in these passages there is no mention of water, or wind...but "from above", "of things which come from heaven or God" and "over again"

to be born again, you need to be baptized hence;

5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'


in order for your spirit to be born again/from above, one would need to be baptized...

if they were speaking in aramaic again would just mean again (which i haven't been able to find out...)and verses 5-7 wouldn't make sense because of what he says in vs 12


john 3:12
"I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?"

that's how i see it...

 

[ellenjanuary]

I know my post will get glossed over
as nothing of import,
but
my experience of "born again" was a MAJOR Paradigm Shift,
in which I LITERALLY awoke to a WHOLLY NEW experience of Life.

It leveled every "church" experience of christianity I'd ever known
to nothing.
The Power of this HEIGHTNED/(above) reality experience
lasted in dynamic intensity for months,
and caused the most extreme and real changes in my life,
and in me
that I have ever known.
At the time, I labeled it as the experience of
God's Kingdom on Earth.
or
The Kingdom of God in my Midst... in the Midst of Me.
"Now". (in the present moment)
Within.

My ensuing baptism was RESULTANT
on my New Birth, my new Eyes,
my New Heightened Experience of Being.
(not the other way around)
I dove head first into our swimming pool,
for the first time in MANY years.
I took a leap of faith,
and just dove in....
and WHY the water in our pool was
LIVING/Alive/Energized/Unearthly that summer
would be a WHOLE nother story.
But that, WAS my baptism.

In the end,
I was not allowed
by other christians
to call mySelf a christian.
MY Christianity... was NOT... christianity.
So they all said.
So finally I dropped the label altogether.

It's all good though,
because signs and symbols
are just things
that point to other things,
and a limited VOCABULARY of symbolism
(especially, coupled with a limited pre'scription
of what that vocabulary is "supposed to" signify)
serves only to limit you.
Once you know how to READ Life,
read Your Own life,
read life Signs,
the limited symbolisms of this pre'scribed "system" or that
only serve to become as limitations,
of meaning and significance
to our own sense'abilities and in'tuition.

Anyhow,
ANY Major Paradigm Shift/
Heightened Reality Experience
will result in a "born again" experience.
It IS a born again experience.
It changes your ENTIRE perception of life and being.

In another sense though,
every moment of our existence
gives birth
to the next.
If we live AWAKE and OBSERVANT
of what surrounds us in each moment,
we also
are Alive to that Eternal Rebirth
that is the way of Life itSelf.

Total Submersion in Life...
IS baptism.

That about covers it.
My box of Gwynnies won't give furballs, so kudos.

 

[Oberon]

in order for your spirit to be born again/from above, one would need to be baptized...

You're combining the two meanings in a way that context doesn't necessarily alow..

if they were speaking in aramaic again would just mean again (which i haven't been able to find out...)and verses 5-7 wouldn't make sense because of what he says in vs 12

It would. It would just be two different words in aramaic.

The point is, John's Jesus clearly speaks of a number of facets consituting being born again. None of these, however, make it clear that what Jesus actually meant was "you must be born from above" and nicodemus misunderstood.

 

[truseeker]

The first birth of course is your physical birth from your earthly mother. Then you die and are buried. At Jesus return you will be resurrected with a new spirit body. Isn't it possible that is when you are born again? And of course then you would by like the wind which Jesus speaks of in John because you would be spirit instead of flesh and blood. Maybe that's why all these people who claim to be born again are not really.

 

[Midnight Pete]

I know my post will get glossed over
as nothing of import,
but
my experience of "born again" was a MAJOR Paradigm Shift,
in which I LITERALLY awoke to a WHOLLY NEW experience of Life.

It leveled every "church" experience of christianity I'd ever known
to nothing.
The Power of this HEIGHTNED/(above) reality experience
lasted in dynamic intensity for months,
and caused the most extreme and real changes in my life,
and in me
that I have ever known.
At the time, I labeled it as the experience of
God's Kingdom on Earth.
or
The Kingdom of God in my Midst... in the Midst of Me.
"Now". (in the present moment)
Within.

My ensuing baptism was RESULTANT
on my New Birth, my new Eyes,
my New Heightened Experience of Being.
(not the other way around)
I dove head first into our swimming pool,
for the first time in MANY years.
I took a leap of faith,
and just dove in....
and WHY the water in our pool was
LIVING/Alive/Energized/Unearthly that summer
would be a WHOLE nother story.
But that, WAS my baptism.

In the end,
I was not allowed
by other christians
to call mySelf a christian.
MY Christianity... was NOT... christianity.
So they all said.
So finally I dropped the label altogether.

It's all good though,
because signs and symbols
are just things
that point to other things,
and a limited VOCABULARY of symbolism
(especially, coupled with a limited pre'scription
of what that vocabulary is "supposed to" signify)
serves only to limit you.
Once you know how to READ Life,
read Your Own life,
read life Signs,
the limited symbolisms of this pre'scribed "system" or that
only serve to become as limitations,
of meaning and significance
to our own sense'abilities and in'tuition.

Anyhow,
ANY Major Paradigm Shift/
Heightened Reality Experience
will result in a "born again" experience.
It IS a born again experience.
It changes your ENTIRE perception of life and being.

In another sense though,
every moment of our existence
gives birth
to the next.
If we live AWAKE and OBSERVANT
of what surrounds us in each moment,
we also
are Alive to that Eternal Rebirth
that is the way of Life itSelf.

Total Submersion in Life...
IS baptism.

The Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed are probably the simplest qualifiers of Christian identity. Can you recite either of them without perjuring yourself?

 

[waitasec]

You're combining the two meanings in a way that context doesn't necessarily alow..

i'm sorry i wasn't clear, i should have put it like this;
in order for your spirit to be born from above, one would need to be baptized (born of water and of spirit)
had jesus said you need to be born from above in aramaic then the misunderstanding would not have occurred in aramaic.

It would. It would just be two different words in aramaic.

but is it? it seems that this word, again, in aramaic only has 1 meaning
why would jesus say, You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’? This would make perfect sense if this conversation were in the greek... which imo, is suspect.

 

[blackout]

The Nicene Creed and the Apostles' Creed are probably the simplest qualifiers of Christian identity. Can you recite either of them without perjuring yourself?

No. They are the simplest qualifiers of YOUR Christian identity.

I do not identify in hardly any way at all
with mainstream christianity.

I don't recite other people's creeds or pledges.

 

[Oberon]

had jesus said you need to be born from above in aramaic then the misunderstanding would not have occurred in aramaic.

But jesus didn't mean (greek or aramaic aside) that one must be born from above, but rather born again spiritually.

but is it? it seems that this word, again, in aramaic only has 1 meaning
why would jesus say, You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’?

Because Nicodemus took "born again" literally, meaning actually coming out of the womb twice, while Jesus meant it metaphorically. This misunderstanding could have occurred in greek or aramaic.

This would make perfect sense if this conversation were in the greek... which imo, is suspect.

Again, my knowledge of aramaic is quite limited (based merely on my knowledge of ancient hebrew and the help of a lexicon and reference grammar). However, the "born again" mistake could happen in german, english, french, hebrew, or latin (all languages I know), not just greek. Because Jesus could words or constructions meaning "again" which could be misunderstood literally.

The problem, once more, wasn't that Jesus meant "born from above" and Nicodemus thought he meant "born again" but that Jesus meant "born again spiritually" and Nicodemus thought he meant "literally born again." The issue is one of metaphor, not the semantics of a particular word of a particular language.

 

[waitasec]

But jesus didn't mean (greek or aramaic aside) that one must be born from above, but rather born again spiritually.





Because Nicodemus took "born again" literally, meaning actually coming out of the womb twice, while Jesus meant it metaphorically. This misunderstanding could have occurred in greek or aramaic.



Again, my knowledge of aramaic is quite limited (based merely on my knowledge of ancient hebrew and the help of a lexicon and reference grammar). However, the "born again" mistake could happen in german, english, french, hebrew, or latin (all languages I know), not just greek. Because Jesus could words or constructions meaning "again" which could be misunderstood literally.

The problem, once more, wasn't that Jesus meant "born from above" and Nicodemus thought he meant "born again" but that Jesus meant "born again spiritually" and Nicodemus thought he meant "literally born again." The issue is one of metaphor, not the semantics of a particular word of a particular language.

i looked up this word anothem ἄνωθεν (from above and from the beginning )to see how it was used in it's context in the NT gospels.

it was used once in mattew 27:51 and once in mark 15:38 in reference to the temple mark, from top to bottom
it was used in Luke 1:3 and the context was investigating from the beginning
"it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus;"
4 times in John...
john 3:3 (again), 3:7(again), 3:31 (as above) and 19:11(above)
it is used 3 times in james; 1:17, 3:15 and 3:17 all used as above
once in acts 26:5 "from the beginning"

my question is; if the author of john simply meant to be born again, why wasn't πάλιν used instead?

 

[Oberon]

i looked up this word anothem ἄνωθεν (from above and from the beginning )to see how it was used in it's context in the NT gospels.

I would broaden your search at least to koine greek if not all of ancient greek. The word is found meaning "again" in everything from greek inscriptions to Artemidorus. The word initially comes from a space/time adverb meaning from some point in the past or from some point above. The temporal aspect is where we get the "anew, again" meaning and it is found in many places in koine greek.

my question is; if the author of john simply meant to be born again, why wasn't πάλιν used instead?

Such is the nature of language (see particularly work on construal and perspectivization in cognitive linguistics). Actually, anothen is sometimes used with palin to strenthen the "again" since. If we examine words like "again" or "anew" schematically we can picture two repeated actions: X1 then X2. Both the greek palin and anothen have this sense. However, palin conceptualizes a return to a state (going backwards) whereas anothen emphasizes coming from that states.

So, one likely answer to your question is that anothen is used to emphasize or make more salient the motion forwards in time (i.e. you must be born forth anew) versus the emphasis on the repitition of a past event (you must be born again like you were before). The difference is subtle, but that is usually true when words have similar meanings.