Born of water and of the Spirit?

[Faithofchristian]

We must first of all remind ourselves that the condition to which people were reduced by the baptism in the Jordan was, after all, an abnormal one as compared with the ordinary, every-day state of consciousness. We learned that the old initiation, for instance, was based upon the withdrawal, in a certain respect, of the etheric body, which normally is firmly joined to the physical body, and that this enabled the astral body to imprint its experiences into the etheric body. Such was the procedure in the old initiation, and an abnormal condition had to supervene in the baptism by John as well. The disciple was submerged in water, resulting in a certain separation of the etheric from the physical body; and thus he could attain to a survey of his life and become aware of the connection of this individual life with the regions of the divine-spiritual world. To make it a little clearer, we can say that when the submersion was successful it produced in the disciple the conviction: I have spirit within me; I am not just a being in this physical-material body; and this spirit within me is one with the spirit underlying all things. — And he knew in addition that the Spirit Whom he thus confronted was the same that Moses had perceived in the fire of the burning bush and in the lightning on Sinai as Jahve, as I am the I AM, as ehjeh asher ehjeh. All this was revealed to him through the baptism by John." Gospel of John: Lecture VII: The Baptism with Water and the Baptism with Fire and Spirit.
Basically what John was doing is inducing NDE in baptized persons, directly connecting to Astral world.

But what has this to do with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. There's no where that Jesus or Nicodemus said anything about baptism.

 

[socharlie]

But what has this to do with the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. There's no where that Jesus or Nicodemus said anything about baptism.

a lot, that was the way entering Heaven - spiritual/astral world, just explaining what means to worship in spirit and truth in the next Chapter 4. Heaven entered when soul body exits physical body, it can be after death or entering higher levels of consciousness and that what Nicodemus was asking Jesus. NDE is from the same story. Not baptism but immersion.

 

[CohenDavidson]

In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?

He means what he said in Mark 16:16... He is referring to baptism. Baptism takes place in water and represents a spiritual rebirth. Romans 6:1-7 tells us how baptism represents a resurrection and cleanses us and "resets" our lives. In fact we "die" to sin and are reborn spiritually during this process. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that when we are baptized in water, we do not do it to be physically clean. We are saved by the mechanism of baptism by the resurrection of Jesus. Baptism in the water results in the washing of sins. Acts 2:38. It also is symbolic of Jesus's resurrection as explained in Romans 6.

 

[Faithofchristian]

He means what he said in Mark 16:16... He is referring to baptism. Baptism takes place in water and represents a spiritual rebirth. Romans 6:1-7 tells us how baptism represents a resurrection and cleanses us and "resets" our lives. In fact we "die" to sin and are reborn spiritually during this process. 1 Peter 3:21 tells us that when we are baptized in water, we do not do it to be physically clean. We are saved by the mechanism of baptism by the resurrection of Jesus. Baptism in the water results in the washing of sins. Acts 2:38. It also is symbolic of Jesus's resurrection as explained in Romans 6.

Look you can not go to the new testament,
When all Nicodemus had was the Old Testament to go by.

At the time of Jesus and Nicodemus conversation the New Testament was not even written yet. All they had was the Old Testament to go by.

 

[CohenDavidson]

I know there are some who believe that being "born of water" simply means being physically born to a woman. I don't believe this to be the case, because when the scriptures speak of one's physical birth, they say being "born of the flesh."

Yes, and Jesus tells Nicodemus that that isn't the case being born of a women. Jesus said being born of water and of the spirit is separate from physical birth from a women. John 3:4-8

 

[CohenDavidson]

Look you can not go to the new testament,
When all Nicodemus had was the Old Testament to go by.

At the time of Jesus and Nicodemus conversation the New Testament was not even written yet. All they had was the Old Testament to go by.

??? Not understanding what you're saying. Why can we not use the new testament to understand what Jesus was saying here? These are the words of Jesus. This is when he was establishing his teachings. We can use his words to help us understand as well as the apostle's words as well... When Jesus finished his conversation with Nicodemus, he went and baptized. John 3:22 Baptism is what he was referring to considering his statement in Mark 16:16 to be condemned is the same as not entering into the kingdom of God.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Look you can not go to the new testament,
When all Nicodemus had was the Old Testament to go by.

At the time of Jesus and Nicodemus conversation the New Testament was not even written yet. All they had was the Old Testament to go by.

Yes, and Jesus tells Nicodemus that that isn't the case being born of a women. Jesus said being born of water and of the spirit is separate from physical birth from a women. John 3:4-8

Look Jesus said in John 3:6--"That which is born of the flesh is flesh"

Can you explain just how is anyone born of flesh if not by their mothers?

Thereby when a mother's water breaks your born thru that water, being born of the flesh.

Unless you have another way of being born of the flesh.

This is what Nicodemus couldn't figure out, how is it possible to be born again of the flesh.
So can you explain how is it possible to be born again of the flesh ?

 

[Faithofchristian]

??? Not understanding what you're saying. Why can we not use the new testament to understand what Jesus was saying here? These are the words of Jesus. This is when he was establishing his teachings. We can use his words to help us understand as well as the apostle's words as well... When Jesus finished his conversation with Nicodemus, he went and baptized. John 3:22 Baptism is what he was referring to considering his statement in Mark 16:16 to be condemned is the same as not entering into the kingdom of God.

Look the new testament was not written until after the death and Resurrection of Jesus, Paul was not even a disciple when Jesus was here on earth, before he was nailed to the cross.


Not only that all Nicodemus had was the old testament, for the new testament was not even written yet.

You can not go by what Nicodemus didn't have.
How is Nicodemus know anything about the new testament, when the new testament wasn't even written yet.

 

[Ponder This]

In the Bible, in the book of John 3:3-6,
Jesus and Nicodemus in their Conversation, Jesus speaking to Nicodemus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

What does Jesus mean by this ?

The unclean do not enter the Kingdom of God.
The unspiritual do not enter the Kingdom of God.

The unclean is made clean by being born of water.
The clean become spiritual by being born in the spirit.

Nicodemus should know this because of all the laws regarding purification. It is shocking for him not to understand the purpose of those rituals.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The unclean do not enter the Kingdom of God.
The unspiritual do not enter the Kingdom of God.

The unclean is made clean by being born of water.
The clean become spiritual by being born in the spirit.

Nicodemus should know this because of all the laws regarding purification. It is shocking for him not to understand the purpose of those rituals.

What do you mean exactly by being born of water ?

If your referring to water baptism, then show in the Old Testament Scriptures, as to where the people of Israel were being baptized in the Old Testament Scriptures.

Because at the time of Nicodemus they only had the Old Testament Scriptures to go by, for the New Testament Scriptures had not been written yet.

The baptism of the people of Israel, didn't come about until John the Baptist was born, before John the Baptist was born, there were no baptism of the people of Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures.

 

[pearl]

If your referring to water baptism, then show in the Old Testament Scriptures, as to where the people of Israel were being baptized in the Old Testament Scriptures.

The Church teaches that baptism was foreshadowed in Hebrew Scripture, They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1Cor 10:2

 

[sandy whitelinger]

But how does that apply to being born of a woman.
If you notice in Jesus and Nicodemus conversation, they are speaking about the womb of a woman. In John 3:4

So how does a man being born of water, apply to a woman?

It means we are born of the natural world.

 

[Faithofchristian]

The Church teaches that baptism was foreshadowed in Hebrew Scripture, They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1Cor 10:2

Look the book of Hebrews was written after the death and Resurrection of Christ.

Therefore the book of Hebrews is part of the New Testament.

Which Nicodemus didn't have,
all Nicodemus and the people had at that time was the Old Testament Scriptures.

There is nothing the Old Testament Scriptures, that says anything about baptism, Baptism didn't come about until John the Baptist was born.

 

[pearl]

Look the book of Hebrews was written after the death and Resurrection of Christ.

I referred to 1 Cor not Hebrews. Do you understand what is meant by foreshadowed?

 

[metis]

There is nothing the Old Testament Scriptures, that says anything about baptism, Baptism didn't come about until John the Baptist was born.

Baptism is a variation of the Jewish Mikvah, which was used before and during Jesus' time.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I referred to 1 Cor not Hebrews. Do you understand what is meant by foreshadowed?

Do you understand, that back at the time of Nicodemus those people then didn't have the new testament to go by.

So anytime that you quote from the new testament will not apply to those people back then. When in fact they didn't have the New Testament Scriptures to go by.

No more than you would try to take the technology of to day and try to apply it to people back 300 hundred years ago.
It will not work.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Baptism is a variation of the Jewish Mikvah, which was used before and during Jesus' time.

There is nothing in the Old Testament Scriptures that indicates anything about baptism. The only place you will find anything about baptism is in the New Testament Scriptures.

Baptism didn't happen until John the Baptist. That why John is known in the New Testament Scriptures
As John the Baptist.

 

[metis]

There is nothing in the Old Testament Scriptures that indicates anything about baptism. The only place you will find anything about baptism is in the New Testament Scriptures.

"Baptism" is a word that comes from the Greek, and "mikvah" is from the Hebrew. That ritual cleansing is found in Torah and Tanakh, and mikvah baths have been found by archaeologists that date back to Jesus' time and before.

What John the Baptist did was to use the mikvah with a blessing as not only a form of ritual cleansing but also with the intent of having one dedicate or rededicate their life to God, which is what a person does when converting to Judaism. Later, the church added to that ritual to reflect both Jesus and the H.S.

Jesus was a Jew operating out of a Jewish paradigm, therefore symbols and rituals largely are reflected in Christianity.

 

[Faithofchristian]

"Baptism" is a word that comes from the Greek, and "mikvah" is from the Hebrew. That ritual cleansing is found in Torah and Tanakh, and mikvah baths have been found by archaeologists that date back to Jesus' time and before.

What John the Baptist did was to use the mikvah with a blessing as not only a form of ritual cleansing but also with the intent of having one dedicate or rededicate their life to God, which is what a person does when converting to Judaism. Later, the church added to that ritual to reflect both Jesus and the H.S.

Jesus was a Jew operating out of a Jewish paradigm, therefore symbols and rituals largely are reflected in Christianity.

Look those are baths, not a place of Baptism. Further more there is no where in the Old Testament Scriptures, that Priest baptized anyone. Not until John the Baptist

Look the archaeologist found many baths in Rome also, that doesn't mean they are a place of baptism, as you want to believe.
Baths are where people would go to bathe themselves, it's wasn't a place to hold baptism's at.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Born of water means physical birth. Doesn't a woman often say her water broke just before she gives birth. Born of the spirit means being resurrected with a new spiritual body when Christ returns. Many people think they are already born again but the Bible says they will be invisible like the wind when they are born again. Physical body born of water. Spiritual body born of the spirit. So plain and simple but few understand.