Boy, These Days Evolution Just Can't Seem To Catch A Break

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't actually, there's way too many factors shaping America right now to blame everything good or bad on any one issue. I believe it is a factor... And maybe a large factor. Since 1960 violent crimes are up 200%, murder is actually the same, take is up around 32%, robbery is up about 25%, and assault is up around 60%. Those don't sound like improvements. I also don't think the millions of babies killed every year is inspiring either.

This doesn't appear to be at all true. A quick search and I was returned this, starkly straight to the point and in complete opposition to your assessment:

Crime rates have varied over time, with a sharp rise after 1963, reaching a broad peak between the 1970s and early 1990s. Since then, crime has declined significantly in the United States, and current crime rates are approximately the same as those of the 1960s.

 

[JasAnMa]

Ok friends I must concede for now. Once again, I hate arguing. I joined this forum because there are things I think I know and there are things I want to know better. There are many things in the Bible I have trouble with. I have zero interest in coming up with counterarguments...Im afraid many Christians do. I'm looking for the truth and you all have shown me some areas I need to dig into deeper. There are so many things in the Bible I honestly don't know how to reconcile, and I don't want to just reconcile for peace of mind. Thank you all for the input, and quite frankly for being respectful. I look forward to fact finding with you again, soon. I do apologise if I seemed defensive or "snarky"at any point, it was not my intent. I would say God bless but for this audience maybe "Be Blessed"is a better phrase.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I maintain it's extremely important where the idea of good comes from. If good comes from God then it is universal and doesn't change. If it comes from man then there are no absolutes thereby"good" is in the eye of the beholder and there's no real way to to say whether anything at all is good or bad. Id also like to clarify that I know the colonists came here to flee religious persecution and absolutely forbade a mandatory religion for this country. But they absolutely did found most of the laws on the Bible, but more specifically the Torah. Even Jefferson and Adams wanted to emulate what God did through the Jews and how He set up their country. As far as the Scotsman fallacy....I have no interest in throwing memorized "answers" on this forum to win an argument. I actually hate arguing with people but the only way to know wether I'm right is to look at an issue from all possible angles and debate happens to be the best way to do that. I'm actually seeking the truth the best I know how. I think history shows that slave in the Bible and slave in early America were in no way the same thing. Also, the no true Scotsman fallacy is an unfalsifiable blanket statement. I'm not saying no Christian would own a slave....I will say most often three word slave in the Bible is more akin to our word servant. This is a falsifiable claim. You don't have to believe it but it happens to be true. It's very easy to find historical documents demonstrating the influence of the Torah on the founding of this country.

Why do you think that human beings aren't capable of determining good from bad all on their own?

 

[tayla]

It’s up to the rest of us to push back against their inability to deal with reality. If we don’t, these stories will never stop.

I am saddened with the completely irrational and senseless worldviews expressed by so many in the news these days. We are doomed.

 

[JasAnMa]

“It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor.”
– George Washington

It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.
– George Washington

The rights of the colonists as Christians…may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.
– Samuel Adams

The United States in Congress assembled … recommend this edition of the Bible to the inhabitants of the United States … a neat edition of the Holy Scriptures for the use of schools.”
– United States Congress 1782

The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
– John Adams

The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
– John Adams

As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him.
– John Adams

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
– Patrick Henry

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty – as well as privilege and interest – of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.
– John Jay

We recognize no sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus.
– John Adams and John

The rights essential to happiness. . . . We claim them from a higher source — from the King of kings and Lord of all the earth.”
– John Dickinson

God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial

In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed … No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.
– Noah Webster, Preface Noah Webster Dictionary, 1828

 

[JasAnMa]

I know most people here don't believe me when I said this nation was founded on the Bible... Above is an extremely small sample of quotes. Don't listen to me... Listen to the people who actually founded this country.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I know most people here don't believe me when I said this nation was founded on the Bible... Above is an extremely small sample of quotes. Don't listen to me... Listen to the people who actually founded this country.

That there were believers in the Bible does not mean that the nation was founded on the Bible. And we have risen above that. Secualr morality beats religioius morality.

 

[JasAnMa]

That there were believers in the Bible does not mean that the nation was founded on the Bible. And we have risen above that. Secualr morality beats religioius morality.

If you need to deny the origin of this country to explain away God that's fine but it's abundantly clear that's not the case. I could just as easily say that Christian morality beats secular morality but that gets us no where without evidence. Secular morality can't have objective morals with leaves us with subjective morals. With subjective morals, values change from person to person, thus essentially erasing the idea of good and bad. If good and bad aren't concrete terms there's no way to even argue the idea of morality.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If you need to deny the origin of this country to explain away God that's fine but it's abundantly clear that's not the case. I could just as easily say that Christian morality beats secular morality but that gets us no where without evidence. Secular morality can't have objective morals with leaves us with subjective morals. With subjective morals, values change from person to person, thus essentially erasing the idea of good and bad. If good and bad aren't concrete terms there's no way to even argue the idea of morality.

I denied nothing. I corrected. There is a difference.

And no, I can bring up case after case of Bible morality that is atrocious. Secular morality improves over the years, what mechanism exists in the Bible to correct past wrongs?

 

[JasAnMa]

I denied nothing. I corrected. There is a difference.

And no, I can bring up case after case of Bible morality that is atrocious. Secular morality improves over the years, what mechanism exists in the Bible to correct past wrongs?

Throwing out a short alternate theory to explain away an obvious truth is not correcting, it's refusing to take the data at face value and refusing to acknowledge historical evidence. And if your arguing that morality comes from people... You have no foundation to even argue morality at all. If moral law didn't come from a higher source than ourselves then we can justify anything and condemn nothing without any kind of certainty. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how your worldview can actually explain the existence of morality. No transcendent morality, no way to justify atrocious events outside of "I don't like that".

 

[Subduction Zone]

Throwing out a short alternate theory to explain away an obvious truth is not correcting, it's refusing to take the data at face value and refusing to acknowledge historical evidence. And if your arguing that morality comes from people... You have no foundation to even argue morality at all. If moral law didn't come from a higher source than ourselves then we can justify anything and condemn nothing without any kind of certainty. I'd love to hear your thoughts on how your worldview can actually explain the existence of morality. No transcendent morality, no way to justify atrocious events outside of "I don't like that".

Not a theory. The fact is that the fathers of the country were a mixed lot. They were not all Christians. And they saw the evils of a "Christian" country. That is why in one of our first treaties it was openly stated that we are not a Christian country.


And if you are arguing that your morals come from a mythical being you have no foundations for your morals either. Here is a clue, just because you may not understand something that does not mean that no one understands what escapes you. You would need to prove that morals have to come from a "higher source" and I am very sure that you cannot do that. All you will be able to do is to present various special pleading arguments. The fact is that Biblical morality is inferior to secular morality.

Once again, how does the Bible allow you to correct the errors in your morality?

 

[JasAnMa]

I forgot to cite this earlier.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I forgot to cite this earlier.

I can see at least one statisic that is not reliable at all from the 1960's. Rapes were grossly underreported back then. The rape rate may now actually be lower the higher number is misleading in that one case.

 

[JasAnMa]

Ok, for actual morality to exist it needs to be universal. If it is not universal then it cannot exist because it stems from each person's individual opinion and therefore has no leg to stand on. Once again, assertions mean nothing. Starting things as fact also mean nothing. You have done nothing to explain your morality and throwing up arguments about how the founding fathers weren't all Christian is a straw man argument. I'm not arguing they were all Christian and I'm not saying they wrote in the law this country has to be a Christian nation, I have demonstrated that they set it up as if it were to be a Christian nation butt stopped short of mandating it too be Christian. Hundreds of quotes from the founders themselves demonstrates this fact. I have to wonder why you are fighting so hard not to believe what's coming directly from the people who built this country.

 

[JasAnMa]

I can see at least one statisic that is not reliable at all from the 1960's. Rapes were grossly underreported back then. The rape rate may now actually be lower the higher number is misleading in that one case.

I had posted stats with no source.... For the life of me I couldn't get back to the exact one. It's hard to really go completely on stats. I mean if the mob killed 50k people and dumped them in the ocean to never be found, murder couldn't be proven or even investigated. Numbers can be misleading.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ok, for actual morality to exist it needs to be universal. If it is not universal then it cannot exist because it stems from each person's individual opinion and therefore has no leg to stand on. Once again, assertions mean nothing. Starting things as fact also mean nothing. You have done nothing to explain your morality and throwing up arguments about how the founding fathers weren't all Christian is a straw man argument. I'm not arguing they were all Christian and I'm not saying they wrote in the law this country has to be a Christian nation, I have demonstrated that they set it up as if it were to be a Christian nation butt stopped short of mandating it too be Christian. Hundreds of quotes from the founders themselves demonstrates this fact. I have to wonder why you are fighting so hard not to believe what's coming directly from the people who built this country.

Why does it need to be "universal"? Morality is always subjective, even Biblical morality. Please support your claims with more than just vaguely waving your hands.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I had posted stats with no source.... For the life of me I couldn't get back to the exact one. It's hard to really go completely on stats. I mean if the mob killed 50k people and dumped them in the ocean to never be found, murder couldn't be proven or even investigated. Numbers can be misleading.

As long as one knows the limitations of one's data.

 

[Polymath257]

I know most people here don't believe me when I said this nation was founded on the Bible... Above is an extremely small sample of quotes. Don't listen to me... Listen to the people who actually founded this country.

A great number of people at the time this country was founded were Christian. Most of the leaders, though, were deists. Some were even atheists. But *for political* reasons they proclaimed Christianity publicly. In their private writings, you see a very different side, often. Jefferson, for example, wrote a version of the New Testament that excised all miracles.

Next, this country was founded on the fear of oppression by an all powerful executive (a king) and a government that would oppress. It was realized that a government endorsement of any particular religion was not conducive to freedom, so the government was designed to be secular and to let individuals determine their own religious beliefs.

One of the earliest treaties the new government entered into was with the moslems of north Africa, where it was stated that this country was NOT founded on Christianity. Once again, of course, this was for political reasons, but in this case, it was the truth. The actual founders were afraid of the government dictating any particular religious beliefs, including those of Christianity.

 

[Jose Fly]

I know most people here don't believe me when I said this nation was founded on the Bible.

I'm always curious when I see someone say that....what exactly do you mean by "founded on the Bible"? Does the Bible contain a framework and guidelines for a representative democracy?

 

[JasAnMa]

A great number of people at the time this country was founded were Christian. Most of the leaders, though, were deists. Some were even atheists. But *for political* reasons they proclaimed Christianity publicly. In their private writings, you see a very different side, often. Jefferson, for example, wrote a version of the New Testament that excised all miracles.

Next, this country was founded on the fear of oppression by an all powerful executive (a king) and a government that would oppress. It was realized that a government endorsement of any particular religion was not conducive to freedom, so the government was designed to be secular and to let individuals determine their own religious beliefs.

One of the earliest treaties the new government entered into was with the moslems of north Africa, where it was stated that this country was NOT founded on Christianity. Once again, of course, this was for political reasons, but in this case, it was the truth. The actual founders were afraid of the government dictating any particular religious beliefs, including those of Christianity.

Seems like your arguing two separate ideas. Please correct me if I'm wrong, and I in no way mean that sarcastically, but proclaiming Christianity as a political tactic while simultaneously fearing the nation be a Christian nation seem contrary. Most of the people at that time were equally fearful of the country controlling their freedom, especially through religion. How does it help politically to claim the very thing they fled England from unless it be true. And I am very aware the Jefferson thought the miracles in the New Testament were fiction, yet he proclaimed Christianity as...
God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.
– Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Memorial
Again I never said America was or is a Christian nation, but that the structure of early America was greatly influenced by the Hebrew people. Until 20 years ago this was taught in schools across the US.