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Brahman and Awareness

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
What you believe is your choice (like many/most Hindus in the forum) - universal consciousness, God, Brahman, the creator and controller of everything in the universe. But, existence without awareness is still existence, like that of a rock. The rock affects the behavior of water or air flowing around it. Brahman is such a rock. Just the existence of Brahman creates 'maya', and therefore the universe. Brahman does not need to do a thing.

While I don't view Brahman as creator or controller, I do view It as universal consciousness.

But you have piqued my curiosity here. If you have/are consciousness, and you are the same as Brahman, how can Brahman not be consciousness? Do you view consciousness as an aspect of maya?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yes, I am Brahman, physical energy, star dust, that which constitutes the universe and all things in it. And yes, I am conscious of what is happening around me and elsewhere (modern communications, news channels, twitter, we get to know the destruction of 'Twin Towers' as it is happening and the Egypt blast probably within fifteen minutes of its having happened), but that consciousness is limited to this body, this form. Yeah, consciousness is a part of 'maya'. And it changes, from sometimes a selfish young consciousness to a milder consciousness of an old person, and drastically so after experiences like NDE. Once this body, this form becomes nonfunctional, my consciousness also will cease.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Is Brahman Self-aware in and of Itself? Or does It experience awareness through the Atman? Or is a combination of both? Or neither?

Your question, as you frame it, has no answer.

The ontological relationship between Brahman and Atman depends on who you ask and which school they belong to. Depending on the school/tradition, the response will be different. For instance, the Advaita definition is very different from the Dvaita definition.Therefore, there is no correct, single "Hindu" answer to your question.

Further, what is meant by self-awareness and what does it mean to experience awareness? Do you know the Sanskrit terms for these ideas?

I perceive awareness to be an aspect of consciousness, not the mind, and I perceive consciousness to be Brahman.

Without the mind, there is no consciousness, no self and no Brahman. It is the mind (the thought process) that infers a substratum, which we label as consciousness. From others, we learn of the concept of Brahman and in your case, you have inferred that consciousness is Brahman.

Wouldn't existence without awareness be nihilistic?

Is there such a thing as non-existence? There is no awareness (of anything) without the mind. The mind plays the critical function of recognition. It is the mind that tells you that you are aware of something or just of yourself. Without the mind, the concept of awareness itself, does not exist. It is the mind, the thought process that tells the meditating person that he is in a thoughtless state. This is why a thoughtless state is a fictional state. It is fictional because there is no way to recognize such a state, for thought is necessary to recognize anything. The same would apply for awareness, or lack thereof.
 
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SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Your question, as you frame it, has no answer.

The ontological relationship between Brahman and Atman depends on who you ask and which school they belong to. Depending on the school/tradition, the response will be different. For instance, the Advaita definition is very different from the Dvaita definition.Therefore, there is no correct, single "Hindu" answer to your question.

I wasn't seeking one single "Hindu" answer. I understand that there are various schools of philosophy within Hinduism, such as Dvaita, Vishishtadvaita, and Advaita. While I'm specifically interested in Advaitistic views due to my own personal nondualistic worldview, I am also interested in other perspectives.

Further, what is meant by self-awareness and what does it mean to experience awareness?

Awareness, in this context, is the ability to observe, and being aware is the act of observing. As far as Self-awareness, I am meaning one's ability to observe what one is and what one is not.

Do you know the Sanskrit terms for these ideas?

I do not.

Without the mind, there is no consciousness, no self and no Brahman. It is the mind (the thought process) that infers a substratum, which we label as consciousness. From others, we learn of the concept of Brahman and in your case, you have inferred that consciousness is Brahman.

Is there such a thing as non-existence? There is no awareness (of anything) without the mind. The mind plays the critical function of recognition. It is the mind that tells you that you are aware of something or just of yourself. Without the mind, the concept of awareness itself, does not exist. It is the mind, the thought process that tells the meditating person that he is in a thoughtless state. This is why a thoughtless state is a fictional state. It is fictional because there is no way to recognize such a state, for thought is necessary to recognize anything. The same would apply for awareness, or lack thereof.

If by 'mind' you are referring to the Self which is immortal, then what I am referring to as 'consciousness' is the same as what you are calling the 'mind.' If you are referring to the 'mind' as the brain, which dies upon death of the temporal body, then what terminology do you use for the part of you that survives temporal death?
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
It is the mind, the thought process that tells the meditating person that he is in a thoughtless state. This is why a thoughtless state is a fictional state. It is fictional because there is no way to recognize such a state, for thought is necessary to recognize anything. The same would apply for awareness, or lack thereof.
I would think that depends on how one defines a "thoughtless state". If it's a state of mental dissipation or sinking, then not much is recognised due to the absence of awareness.

Awareness and thought are two different things, though for an untrained being they can appear to be one and the same. When discursive thought is dissolved into its original base, awareness becomes far more acute and wholly cognizant of the vast profundity of silence. In fact, they become totally undifferentiated without any internal narrative.

These verses from the Spanda Karikas explain that process in terms of enslavement, but by implication, the reverse is what the seeker can accomplish.

45. That one who is deprived of his power
by the dark forces of limited activity
becomes the plaything of the energy of sounds.

46. Trapped in the field of subtle energies,
and mental structure,
the supreme immortal nectar is dissolved,
and the person forgets his innate freedom.

47. The dualistic power of the word is always ready
to conceal the profound nature of the Self,
because no mental representation can free itself
from the confinements of language.

48. The energy of the sacred tremor that
flows through an unaware person enslaves him,
whereas this very same energy liberates
the one who is on the path.

Already by second Jhana on the Buddhist path, discursive thoughts are dissolved and innate bliss arises.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
Awareness, in this context, is the ability to observe, and being aware is the act of observing. As far as Self-awareness, I am meaning one's ability to observe what one is and what one is not.

Isn't that a given? I would think everyone, including animals, have that awareness. Unless, I am missing something.

If by 'mind' you are referring to the Self which is immortal, then what I am referring to as 'consciousness' is the same as what you are calling the 'mind.' If you are referring to the 'mind' as the brain, which dies upon death of the temporal body, then what terminology do you use for the part of you that survives temporal death?

The mind is the collective term for all thoughts. I am not referring to the brain, which is just another thought.

What is meant by temporal death?

I would think that depends on how one defines a "thoughtless state". If it's a state of mental dissipation or sinking, then not much is recognised due to the absence of awareness.

Technically, no thought = no awareness, no recognition. But such a state is fictional because without thought, there can be no recognition of a thoughtless state.

Awareness and thought are two different things, though for an untrained being they can appear to be one and the same. When discursive thought is dissolved into its original base, awareness becomes far more acute and wholly cognizant of the vast profundity of silence. In fact, they become totally undifferentiated without any internal narrative.

This is where the problem lies. For you to recognize this "vast profundity of silence", you need to have in you, the concept of silence (and therefore non-silence) and without thought, you would not make the identification. But since you did recognize/identify this silence (through memory) and are able to talk about it here, thought was in action all the time.

In other words, If there indeed was no thought, there would be no recognition of this silence as silence and consequently, you would not recollect it as such. That is, no thought = no identification. Conversely, if there is identification (of silence, bliss, etc.,), then there is thought involved.

Already by second Jhana on the Buddhist path, discursive thoughts are dissolved and innate bliss arises.

No offense meant, but if thought is gone, there is no way to recognize this innate bliss. The ideas of bliss, thoughtlessness, etc are already etched into your memory and for you to be able to experience this, your memory is kicking in and identifying bliss as bliss. None of this is possible without thought.
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
Technically, no thought = no awareness, no recognition. But such a state is fictional because without thought, there can be no recognition of a thoughtless state.
I think we have a different definition of thought. I don't equate thought with recognition. Recognition is Vipassanā (insight). This is not the same as the internal dialogue. But if you equate papañca (conceptual proliferation) with Vipassanā (insight), that's your choice. In my system they're technically different states and are experienced as such.

It's a terminology mismatch.

Conceptual proliferation - Wikipedia
Vipassanā - Wikipedia
 

Kiranasa

New Member
All living entities, ARE Brahman, but Krsna is Parabrahman, Supreme Soul. Brahman is Spirit soul or consciousness, and essentially is one with Supreme Soul. All living entities are one with Supreme Soul qualitatively, but different quantitatively. Supreme Soul is like an unlimited Ocean and spirit souls are like drops of that Ocean, same quality but very tiny. Or Supreme Soul is like an unlimited Fire and spirit souls are like sparks of that Fire. Spark has light and heat the same quality of Fire, but very minute. So Parabrahman is an unlimited consciousness and we living entities are very minute consciousness.
When all the material designations have thus merged into their respective material elements, the living beings, who are all ultimately completely spiritual, being one in quality with the Supreme Being, should cease from material existence, as flames cease when the wood in which they are burning is consumed. When the material body is returned to its various material elements, only the spiritual being remains. This spiritual being is Brahman and is equal in quality with Parabrahman. (SB 7.12.31)
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Isn't that a given? I would think everyone, including animals, have that awareness. Unless, I am missing something.

I'm not convinced that all humans, let alone other animals, have such awareness in the sense that they are aware that they are the Atman.

The mind is the collective term for all thoughts. I am not referring to the brain, which is just another thought.

What is meant by temporal death?

The awakening from this perceived reality.
 

shivsomashekhar

Well-Known Member
I think we have a different definition of thought. I don't equate thought with recognition.

I am not saying they are the same. I am saying recognition is predicated on thought. The recognition of a flower as a flower happens through the process of thought. Recognition is you telling yourself that it is a flower.

It is not my system or someone else's. So long as we are viewing things according to a system, we cannot see the truth. For example, Asanga (4th Century CE) created the chitta-matra (mind only) school - which eventually made its way into Gaudapada's ajati-vada and the Yoga Vashishta. However, if one views this idea through Asanga's lens, they cannot really see it. The individual has to rise above all systems and stand independent to be able to see the truth. Case in point, the role of thought should be seen by oneself without any external influence.

I'm not convinced that all humans, let alone other animals, have such awareness in the sense that they are aware that they are the Atman.

Does the Atman become aware at a point in time that it is the Atman? If not, who becomes aware?

The awakening from this perceived reality.

By definition, perceived reality is all there can be. The other reality you speak of is only an inference. It does not, in anyway, do away with perceived reality. Acclaimed celebrities of the past who are considered to have been enlightened, lived just like anyone else. They conversed with other humans, ate, slept, fell sick and died as regular people.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Is Brahman Self-aware in and of Itself? Or does It experience awareness through the Atman? Or is a combination of both? Or neither?
I am quoting Rishi Yajnavalkyas answer to your question below from Brihad-Aranyaka Upanisad.

"It is like this. As a man embraced by a woman he loves is oblivious to every-
thing within or without, so this person embraced by the self (atman) consisting of knowledge is oblivious to everything within or without.
"Clearly, this is the aspect of his where all desires are fulfilled, where the self is
the only desire, and which is free from desires and far from sorrows.


22 "Here a father is not a father, a mother is not a mother, worlds are not worlds,
gods are not gods, and Vedas are not Vedas. Here a thief is not a thief, an abortion-ist is not an abortionist, an outcaste is not an outcaste, a pariah is not a pariah, a recluse is not a recluse, and an ascetic is not an ascetic. Neither the good nor the bad follows him, for he has now passed beyond all sorrows of the heart.
23 "Now, he does not see anything here; but although he does not see, he is quite
capable of seeing, for it is impossible for the seer to lose his capacity to see, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could see as something distinct and separate from himself.
24"Nor does he smell anything here; but although he does not smell, he is quite
capable of smelling, for it is impossible for the smeller to lose his capacity to smell,for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could smell as something distinct and separate from himself.
25 "Nor does he taste anything here; but although he does not taste, he is quite
capable of tasting, for it is impossible for the taster to lose his capacity to taste, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could taste as some- thing distinct and separate from himself.
26 "Nor does he speak anything here; but although he does not speak, he is quite
capable of speaking, for it is impossible for the speaker to lose his capacity to speak, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could speak to as something distinct and separate from himself.
27 "Nor does he hear anything here; but although he does not hear, he is quite
capable of hearing, for it is impossible for the hearer to lose his capacity to hear, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could hear as some- thing distinct and separate from himself.
28 "Nor does he think of anything here; but although he does not think, he is
quite capable of thinking, for it is impossible for the thinker to lose his capacity to
think, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here about which he
could think as something distinct and separate from himself.
29 "Nor does he touch anything here; but although he does not touch, he is quite
capable of touching, for it is impossible for the toucher to lose his capacity to touch, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could touch as something distinct and separate from himself.
30 "Nor does he perceive anything here; but although he does not perceive, he is quite capable of perceiving, for it is impossible for the perceiver to lose his capacity to perceive, for it is indestructible. But there isn't a second reality here that he could perceive as something distinct and separate from himself.

31 "When there is some other thing, then the one can see the other, the one can
smell the other, the one can taste the other, the one can speak to the other, the one can hear the other, the one can think of the other, the one can touch the other, and the one can perceive the other.
32"He becomes the one ocean, he becomes the sole seer! This, Your Majesty, is
the world of brahman." So did Yajnavalkya instruct him. "This is his highest goal!
This is his highest attainment! This is his highest world! This is his highest bliss!
On just a fraction of this bliss do other creatures live.


The answer he gives seem clear and cogent to me. :innocent:
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
I am saying recognition is predicated on thought. The recognition of a flower as a flower happens through the process of thought. Recognition is you telling yourself that it is a flower.
Interesting, as I see this process in reverse order. First the naked sensory data, then the assembling of that data into some kind of order of recognition (nama-rupa) the conscious dualistic process. Then "thoughts" of one kind or another about it - ruminating on our likes or dislikes etc.. What makes this process unique for humans is our language structure (both external and internal).

Animals have self identity / nama-rupa too, as well as likes and dislikes. But they lack the human ability of intellectualisation and discursive thought. So this kind of thought is the last guy to arrive at the party. That's how I have found it but it seems that "thought" has very different connotations for you, which I'm not party to. So whilst I've offered my take on it, as best I can, I'm still in no position to understand yours or offer an opinion on it.

It is not my system or someone else's. So long as we are viewing things according to a system, we cannot see the truth. For example, Asanga (4th Century CE) created the chitta-matra (mind only) school - which eventually made its way into Gaudapada's ajati-vada and the Yoga Vashishta. However, if one views this idea through Asanga's lens, they cannot really see it. The individual has to rise above all systems and stand independent to be able to see the truth. Case in point, the role of thought should be seen by oneself without any external influence.
Your point is valid that we need to see it for ourselves and not just take it on hearsay or 'authority'. On the other hand, to just dismiss the work of advanced contemplative traditions, without having attained some realization ourselves, is just opinionated. So it's about getting the balance right. Investigating with an open mind.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Does the Atman become aware at a point in time that it is the Atman? If not, who becomes aware?

The Atman becoming aware that it is the Atman makes no sense to me, so logic tells me that the lower self that experiences maya becomes aware that the experiences in what has been perceived in this state are illusory and realizes that the lower self is not one's true nature by way an experience of the higher Self.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Atman can ride two horses, can travel in two boats. I can realize what I am in the 'absolute truth' (Paramarthika Satya) as well as in the 'pragmatic truth' (Vyavaharika Satya). That is knowing, jnana, jhana, enlightenment, emancipation from ignorance, nirvana, moksha, salvation. The books say:

"Brahma veda Brahmaiva bhavati" (Verily, one who knows Brahman, becomes Brahman).
 

Srivijaya

Active Member
Coming from a different background, I struggle to see any necessity for an Atman. The bound consciousness that does not recognise itself as Brahman, I can understand. Atman seems to be neither here nor there; neither bound self nor Brahman. What role does it fulfill?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Samsara. It is here as well as there, and there is nothing other than it. Break the bounds, tear away the shackles. "Eko sad, dwiteeyo nasti" - at least according to the 'advita' belief. Know yourself. "So'ham', "Ayamatma Brahman", "Tat twam asi", "Aham Brahmasmi".

"Yathā soumya! ekena mritpinḍena sarvaṃ mṛinmayaṃ vijñātaṃ syāt,
vāchāraṃbhaṇaṃ vikāro nāmadheyaṃ mṛittiketyeva satyaṃ.
" Chhandogya Upanishad 6.1.4

(As, O Gentle Enquirer, by knowing one lump of clay, all that is made of clay is known, the difference being only a distortion in name arising from speech, while the truth is that it is just clay)
 
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