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Brain scans during an out of body experience

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
They need more study, 1 person just isn't enough and what does it actually show. The brain is always working and we really don't understand 99% of how it is actually working. Add something else to that list we don't understand.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
I agree with both of you, more studies need to be done. Hopefully this will show that more needs to be done, and it doesn't just get ignored.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
I agree with both of you, more studies need to be done. Hopefully this will show that more needs to be done, and it doesn't just get ignored.
I'd like to think so, man.
I'd love to know more about what they think is happening in the brain during an OBE. The link seems a bit vague on it. We'll see in time. :)
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I believe that there are some things that not even a scientist can answer, and out of body experiences, in my opinion, falls into that category.
 

Parsimony

Well-Known Member
I'll be most happy when we have technology sophisticated enough to read minds and interpret brain patterns into proper sounds and images. That would be an interesting test of OBEs and NDEs.

(1) If we are able to extract images and sounds from the brain of a person undergoing such experiences and corroborate what they report, then it would make a compelling case that the mind never left the brain in the first place (if so, then why is the physical brain responding to the experiences of the now-disconnected mind?).

(2) If we detect no sounds or images from the brain and the subject reports the experiences any way, that may lean towards the idea of the mind leaving the brain. Of course, the memories of such an experience would still need to exist in the brain for the subject to be able to report it after the fact so we would see new memories pop into existence out of nowhere in such a case.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
fantôme profane;3686671 said:
It appears to be more an induced hallucination than an actual OBE.
What is the difference?
The difference is in the reality of the situation.

If the brain is simply visualizing what the room looks like from a higher spatial perspective, then it's a type of hallucination. Our minds can do that- we can extrapolate from our current spatial position what things would look like from another spatial position with varying degrees of thoroughness and accuracy. Like, I can give myself brief glimpses of what I look like right now from the ceiling, but sometimes something seems to trigger in people a more prolonged and thorough form of this, either voluntarily or involuntarily.

If, on the other hand, a person claims that something supernatural is occurring and that a soul or something else has risen out of the body and is looking down, then that's testable. Like, you can put three playing cards facing upwards where her body can't see it, and ask her what playing cards they are. In that case, she'd be obtaining unique information that is only available from that higher spatial perspective. In contrast, in a mere illusion she'd be extrapolating what the room looks like from a higher perspective but not would not able to report information that is unavailable to her current location, like what playing cards they are.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I believe that there are some things that not even a scientist can answer, and out of body experiences, in my opinion, falls into that category.

But our scientific knowledge and understanding is something that continuously grows. There are things we can explain now that we couldn't decades ago. Likewise, decades from now they will be able to explain things that we can't currently. That's why these sort of studies are important. Just because we don't know doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find out.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
The brain scans show that visuals are being toned down but other types of visual areas are being lit up similar to hallucinations. If there are actual OBE it can be tested by having the person bring back real world info as Penumbra suggested. Really just shows the brain being responsible for an altered state as if the subject was dreaming.

This article notes that it I could be similar to what happens with people that have synesthesia.
Scientists unlock mystery of out-of-body experiences (aka astral trips)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
This was a poorly written article and I wonder how much the staff writer understood herself what was going on. I know people in journalism and they admit to putting together articles on subjects they don't much understand. It sounds like they were studying what happens when someone visualizes being above their body. I wonder if the term Out of Body Experience is all a misleading buzzword in this article.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
You can induce this with some people and clinical hypnotherapy as well. Usually in the Theta brain wave state.

Beta state we are wide awake

The Alpha State is the lightest state of hypnosis that we go into. We are also in this state just as we wake up or just before we fall asleep

Theta state -You may sometimes experience an increased sensation of floating and lightness in this state.

Delta state- sleep

Also meditation.

OBE's don't fall out of the the understanding of science, even though they haven't figured it out completely yet.

"4.3. Out of Body Experiences

Out-of-body experiences were once poorly studied scientifically because of their purely psychological nature, but recent technological developments have allowed neurologists to study these types of states of consciousness. Scientists have been able to recreate situations in which out of body experiences occur in wide-awake individuals.

“Two sets of studies published independently in the same issue of the journal Science demonstrate how the illusion of a bodily self outside one's own body can be stimulated in the laboratory. The studies forge ways to better understand both out-of-body and near-death experiences. "The research provides a physical explanation for the phenomenon usually ascribed to otherworldly influences," Peter Bruger, a neurologist at University Hospital in Zurich who was not involved in the experiment, told science journalist Sandra Blakesee in her report on these experiments in The New York Times (August 24).”
Kendrick Frazier in Skeptical Inquirer (2007)20

Olaf Blanke and his colleagues report that they are able to bring about so-called out-of-body experiences (OBE), where a person's consciousness seems to become detached from the body, by electrical stimulation of a specific region in the brain. I have discussed OBE experiments in two books and have concluded that they provide no evidence for anything happening outside of the physical processes of the brain.”
"God, the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist" by Prof. Victor J. Stenger (2007)21

The two books by Prof. Victor Stenger on this subject, plus relevant page numbers, are:

Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World beyond the Senses (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 1990) p111.
Has Science Found God? The Latest Results in the Search for Purpose in the Universe (Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2003) p290-99.


Extensive research into cases of OBEs by skeptical scientists have shown that in all cases, details of the event have not produced anything that could not have been known by the patient. Experiments have included hidden symbols placed high up in rooms so that only through an OBE or other supernatural process could someone know what the symbol was. Simple tests like this have always demonstrated that what is 'seen' during an OBE is only ever what the patient already knew was there. This, combined with our neurological understanding of OBEs is conclusive proof that OBEs are purely psychological, with, as Prof Stenger says, "no evidence for anything happening outside of the physical processes of the brain"."

Souls do not Exist: Evidence from Science & Philosophy Against Mind-Body Dualism





Akin to not understanding Night Terrors: Demonic Attacks in the past.

"The following phenomenon has its basis in the biochemistry of the brain, involving the limbic system, cerebellum and duodenum and the way that they are suppressed during sleep. An incorrect balance of neurone-controlling chemicals during sleep makes some people more susceptible to night terrors than others. They occur in the early night and "experiences of entrapment, of being choked or attacked, often with shrieking, sitting-up, or sleep-walking, and tremendous acceleration of the heart. "

Souls do not Exist: Evidence from Science & Philosophy Against Mind-Body Dualism
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
--

If, on the other hand, a person claims that something supernatural is occurring and that a soul or something else has risen out of the body and is looking down, then that's testable. Like, you can put three playing cards facing upwards where her body can't see it, and ask her what playing cards they are. I---

It may not be testable. Awareness with body, including playing cards in the surroundings, and a detached awareness (which is often called subtle body) are not same.

The involuntary out of body awareness, although not exactly the same, is nearly same as a dream state awareness.
 

shawn001

Well-Known Member
"we have technology sophisticated enough to read minds and interpret brain patterns into proper movements.

We are using this for people who have loss a limb, an arm say

Mind-Controlled Artificial Limbs Fusing Man and Machine Coming Next Year

Mind-Controlled Artificial Limbs Fusing Man and Machine Coming Next Year - Wired Science

Prosthetic wired to the brain could help amputees feel touch

Prosthetic wired to the brain could help amputees feel touch




Artificial limbs wired direct to the brain

"The prospect of being able to replace damaged limbs with prosthetics that plug straight into the nervous system is moving from fantasy to reality. In July researchers at Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island, revealed that electrodes implanted in the brain of Matt Nagle, who is paralysed from the neck down, allowed him to control a robotic arm and even play computer games.

http://www.vis.caltech.edu/Press/PDFs of journal articles/Press/Artifficial limbs wired.pdf
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
It may not be testable. Awareness with body, including playing cards in the surroundings, and a detached awareness (which is often called subtle body) are not same.

This is interesting. I, like Penumbra, would want a out-of-body claimant to tell us the playing cards displayed. But maybe I'm assuming too much that awareness is the same as our waking state awareness.

The involuntary out of body awareness, although not exactly the same, is nearly same as a dream state awareness.

I want to pick your brain a bit more. I've heard we leave our body every night during deep sleep but we obviously don't have normal awareness (or memory) of our environment. Now during near-death experiences I do often hear about people having awareness of events in their environment. Is this a more complete detachment in these cases?

Can you shed further light?
 
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