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Brexit

Mock Turtle

Trump: The USA Brexit!
Premium Member
I don't know why so many voted for Brexit, I didn't, but the overall benefits of belonging to a consensus society, and where cohesion was more important than our differences, would it seems to me, be more beneficial than being outside of such. Of course there will be local issues and things that affect one country more than others but being part of such, and with some influence it seems to me is better than than being outside and perhaps reliant on larger nations - like the USA. The fact is that within the EU we will have some more progressive than others, and it will no doubt be hard to get agreements, but looking at the USA at the moment, is that so bad? Want to swap places? :oops:

And all this is besides the free trade and travel, the exchange of places as to studying, scientific collaboration, the locality of getting our produce and such.
 
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Eddi

Christianity, Taoism, and Humanism
Premium Member
I voted Brexit

Many of my friends have just assumed I voted Remain because I am generally left-wing
I debated making this thread. I think it will go badly but I've become tired enough of some accusations thrown around on RF about Brexit and Brexiteers.

This is the idea that we voted because of a campaign; because of Farage, or Boris Johnson, or because we couldn't stand the sight of Guy Verhofstadt. While the last one might be half true, these aren't generally why anyone I know (in Northern England) voted for Brexit. We voted because we'd always been of the mindset that we wanted to disunite from the EU. I'd been raised with the idea since before the idea of Britain leaving was even seriously floated. I'd since evaluated my views on that and made up my own mind based on other factors, but none, or almost none, of those factors were Brexit 2016 related.

I voted for Labour when Corbyn was in, even after voting Brexit I didn't vote for May's government.

My Brexit voting family mostly voted Labour, too.

We didn't care for bus campaigns or vapid slogans. These aren't why we voted. As far as we were concerned, long before 2016 we'd needed no more reason to want to leave the EU.

Blaming us for the current government is unfair and uninformed. Many Brexiteers are disenfranchised Labour voters who felt let down by Champagne Socialism. Social right-wingers who find no room now in either party.

But the bottom line is, even if there were no Brexit campaign at all, everyone I know who voted for Brexit would still have voted for it and voted Labour at the same time.

This is not a simple issue.
I always vote for Labour

And voted for Brexit too!
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So... there is a view among many British that somehow membership in the UE would be a significant factor in promoting the disfavor of regions far from London?

Not sure I follow the logic. And I don't think it worked or was ever likely to work either.

Looks like it is a part of what I call national myths.

A lesson for the next generation of British to learn, I suppose.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Yes, this is why were are saddened and angered. It's not what we voted for.
How did you feel about the impasse that Theresa May faced in 2019, when she repeatedly tried and failed to build an exit deal that would be accepted by Brexit supporters?

From where I stand, it felt like a spurned opportunity for Leavers to consider what they were actually asking for. A choice between reality and fiction, with the eventual choice being made (repeatedly) for fiction.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
So... there is a view among many British that somehow membership in the UE would be a significant factor in promoting the disfavor of regions far from London?
It's because England is the most centralised state in Europe (not the EU, Europe, afaik) and we wanted to wrest power away from both London and the EU. We saw no other way to make this heard. We saw cutting London away from the EU as a way of bringing it and its wealth closer to us.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
How did you feel about the impasse that Theresa May faced in 2019, when she repeatedly tried and failed to build an exit deal that would be accepted by Brexit supporters?

From where I stand, it felt like a spurned opportunity for Leavers to consider what they were actually asking for. A choice between reality and fiction, with the eventual choice being made (repeatedly) for fiction.
We, the voters, had no opportunity to vote for any deal she put forward. I'd have been happy with a Norway or Canada deal or something similar, but there was a Leaver political group in Parliament that had other ideas. We expected a decent and fair trade deal that benefited both Britain and the EU so we could work with but outside of it.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I just wanted to make clear that no Brexiteer I know voted for or foresaw the mess we're now in re the Tories. I didn't vote for this the first time and I definitely, perhaps naively, assumed that upon offering the referendum the government had a plan for if we voted to leave. They clearly hadn't and that told me all I needed to know about how well some of them had read the public mood outside of certain areas - i.e., not at all. There's a huge difference between the Brexit politicians and the grassroots Brexiteers who are just as appalled as anyone else at this mess. I'm just tired of hearing 'you voted for this' when literally nobody voted for this.
I guess we frequent very separate news environments with little overlap. Which I assumed to be the case; at one point I actually subscribed to the Spectator, if you will believe it.

Eventually I just could not endure that anymore. It was all just so delirious.

From where I stand, Brexit was long predicted to be very destructive. There were good reasons why Theresa May suffered so much. Supporting Boris Johnson (and Farage before him) was never going to be anything better than a disaster.

In a nutshell, everyone seems to have expected as much except for ardent Leavers.

But I am certainly not going to claim to understand why Brexit ever became a popular idea.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I guess we frequent very separate news environments with little overlap.
It's not the news. It's literally where I live and who I interact with on a daily basis. I don't watch the news or pay much attention to it. I voted based on exactly what I see around me.
 
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Yerda

Veteran Member
It's happening. It's a bit of a mess. This is life. It's ok.

It is a lot easier to empathise and forgive people's choices when they are open and brave enough to admit mistakes, I find. It's a lot easier to be open and brave enough to admit mistakes when people aren't gloating about said choice, I also find.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
So... there is a view among many British that somehow membership in the UE would be a significant factor in promoting the disfavor of regions far from London?

Not sure I follow the logic. And I don't think it worked or was ever likely to work either.

Looks like it is a part of what I call national myths.

A lesson for the next generation of British to learn, I suppose.

I think it's more a matter of diminishing returns. I recall when NAFTA was the big debate, some 30 years ago. Those who supported NAFTA and pushed for its passage made all kinds of wild promises. They said it would be a win-win for all, that it would improve the economy and standard of living in the U.S., as well as in Mexico. By improving Mexico's standard of living, they said it would reduce any incentive to cross illegally into the U.S. Similar arguments were made in favor of lowering trade barriers with Japan and China, which has been great for those countries - but not so great for Americans.

The bottom line is, there has been no visible, tangible, concrete evidence that the economy or the standard of living has improved for wide sections of the country. Whatever benefit was supposed to have been gained from all of this has not "trickled down" to the masses. If anything, the standard of living has gotten worse in many areas.

It's just like the line "Show me the money!" If people don't see the money, then they won't see any reason to support whatever the upper classes want.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
We, the voters, had no opportunity to vote for any deal she put forward. I'd have been happy with a Norway or Canada deal or something similar, but there was a Leaver political group in Parliament that had other ideas.

I may be mistaken, but I get the sense that leaving aside first-past-the-post matters (which are a great concern, granted) British voters are actually rather influential in their own constituencies. Even a very few thousand votes seem to be decisive for making or breaking a candidate for MP.

However, there are certainly radical, reckless Leaver groups. The ERG comes to mind. So do Nigel Farage supporters, including the two parties that he founded.

Then again, how else could one justify Brexit as a project?

We expected a decent and fair trade deal that benefited both Britain and the EU so we could work with but outside of it.

So I have heard. Repeatedly. It was unbelievable each and every time. You are no doubt aware that people often call those expectations "unicorns".

To the best of my understanding, there are some wild, more than likely unrealistic assumptions at work there. Somehow distance from the EU was perceived by Leavers as a means of creating new opportunities of some kind. And, as you point out, convincing London to be more attentive to the North and other areas that have been neglected.

I... just don't understand why such an expectation existed.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
It's not the news. It's literally where I live and who I interact with on a daily basis. I don't watch the news or pay much attention to it. I voted based on exactly what I see around me. I live in a village of about 800 folks; it's not easy to live here. No prospects at all.

For what it is worth, the rather Brexit-opposed circles that I frequent do not seem to dispute your claims that there is serious neglect to be dealt with in many areas away from London.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
I may be mistaken, but I get the sense that leaving aside first-past-the-post matters (which are a great concern, granted) British voters are actually rather influential in their own constituencies.
We haven't, which is the problem.

So I have heard. Repeatedly. It was unbelievable each and every time. You are no doubt aware that people often call those expectations "unicorns".
I don't see how a Norway style deal, that a country actually has, is a unicorn. Or a Canada style. These are real deals. I saw no reason we couldn't have one similar.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I think it's more a matter of diminishing returns. I recall when NAFTA was the big debate, some 30 years ago. Those who supported NAFTA and pushed for its passage made all kinds of wild promises. They said it would be a win-win for all, that it would improve the economy and standard of living in the U.S., as well as in Mexico. By improving Mexico's standard of living, they said it would reduce any incentive to cross illegally into the U.S. Similar arguments were made in favor of lowering trade barriers with Japan and China, which has been great for those countries - but not so great for Americans.

The bottom line is, there has been no visible, tangible, concrete evidence that the economy or the standard of living has improved for wide sections of the country. Whatever benefit was supposed to have been gained from all of this has not "trickled down" to the masses. If anything, the standard of living has gotten worse in many areas.

It's just like the line "Show me the money!" If people don't see the money, then they won't see any reason to support whatever the upper classes want.
Those are two different issues, though, are they not?

One is the distribution of wealth, the other are the economic benefits for the countries as such.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I just wanted to make clear that no Brexiteer I know voted for or foresaw the mess we're now in re the Tories. I didn't vote for this the first time and I definitely, perhaps naively, assumed that upon offering the referendum the government had a plan for if we voted to leave. They clearly hadn't and that told me all I needed to know about how well some of them had read the public mood outside of certain areas - i.e., not at all. There's a huge difference between the Brexit politicians and the grassroots Brexiteers who are just as appalled as anyone else at this mess. I'm just tired of hearing 'you voted for this' when literally nobody voted for this.
Whether you foresaw it or not, I think the outcome you got was reasonably foreseeable. You may have voted for it blindly, but you did vote for it.
 

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
Whether you foresaw it or not, I think the outcome you got was reasonably foreseeable. You may have voted for it blindly, but you did vote for it.
I did not vote for this. How many times? I had assumed, as I already wrote, that the government had a plan in place before it gave us the referendum. I assumed it would be orderly or they wouldn't have given us the referendum. It seemed logical to me.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I did not vote for this. How many times?
You voted for Brexit, but not the reasonably foreseeable consequences of Brexit? I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.

At the very least, we're talking about hair splitting between a wilful choosing of an outcome and a negligent choosing without regard to the outcome.

I had assumed, as I already wrote, that the government had a plan in place before it gave us the referendum. I assumed it would be orderly or they wouldn't have given us the referendum. It seemed logical to me.
You assumed... but didn't bother to look into it?

... despite all the people on the news saying things like "there's no plan" and "show us the plan," but the Tories bringing forth no plan?
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
- An end to agency work that allowed only immigrants to work for them. E.g., where I live all the agencies are owned by and will only employ Polish and Russians. In turn, companies prefer to hire these workers over natives, as they cost less etc. We hoped this would be stopped, pretty much for the good of both parties. We saw immigration as the ultimate cause of this.

- An actual Northern Powerhouse where money was diverted to us instead of outside of Britain.

- Getting rid of the Human Rights act, many of which principles we disagreed with (i.e., allowing prisoners to vote [not that we ever implemented this!] iirc).

- An increased focus on internal issues more broadly.

- Making our own trade deals.

- Decentralisation from the EU.

etc.
6-years later, how many of these issues has Brexit delivered?
 
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