British Strippers Feel Empowered, not Exploited

[Sunstone]

It can also be a form of art.

Very true. But so can stripping itself.

 

[trdash]

To me, it can be a form of empowerment, but it can also be a form of false empowerment. There are men and women who feel empowered by knowing they can get another personal sexually aroused, but this empowerment is not always a healthy type of empowerment.

I shared this in a different post. A number of years ago a Dr. Ross and a group of psychiatrist published a study in the journal called “Hospital and Community Psychiatry” (1990, volume 41, pages 328-330) in which psychiatric medical staff interviewed exotic dancers. In this study, 35 percent of exotic dancers struggled with multiple personality disorders, 55 percent experience borderline personality disorders, 60 percent suffer depression and 40 percent struggle with substance abuse. Furthermore, 65 percent of exotic dancers had been sexually abused. These women were using exotic dancing as an unhealthy way of coping their past sexual abuses.
Within the framework of seeing exotic dancers as people who have been sexually abused, the front-stage customer-dancer relationship can be one in which a dancer purposefully attempts to increase a sense of sexual arousal in customers to then purposefully resist being sexual objectified by them.
I am not suggesting all exotic dancers have been sexually abused, but as this study outline, many have.

Also, keep in mind that the original link was about lap dancers, which as the article point out is raunchier than what occurs in the United States. The entire European scene of nudity is quite perplexing – my understanding is most European countries allow mixed gender stripper – a male stripper, followed by a female one, followed by a male one, etc. Some of this would never fly in the United States.

 

[Skwim]

To me, it can be a form of empowerment, but it can also be a form of false empowerment. There are men and women who feel empowered by knowing they can get another personal sexually aroused, but this empowerment is not always a healthy type of empowerment.

I shared this in a different post. A number of years ago a Dr. Ross and a group of psychiatrist published a study in the journal called “Hospital and Community Psychiatry” (1990, volume 41, pages 328-330) in which psychiatric medical staff interviewed exotic dancers. In this study, 35 percent of exotic dancers struggled with multiple personality disorders, 55 percent experience borderline personality disorders, 60 percent suffer depression and 40 percent struggle with substance abuse. Furthermore, 65 percent of exotic dancers had been sexually abused. These women were using exotic dancing as an unhealthy way of coping their past sexual abuses.

Why was it deemed unhealthy?

Within the framework of seeing exotic dancers as people who have been sexually abused, the front-stage customer-dancer relationship can be one in which a dancer purposefully attempts to increase a sense of sexual arousal in customers to then purposefully resist being sexual objectified by them.
I am not suggesting all exotic dancers have been sexually abused, but as this study outline, many have.

Also, keep in mind that the original link was about lap dancers, which as the article point out is raunchier than what occurs in the United States.

May have been the case in 21 years ago, but not today.

 

[trdash]

Skim:

You are right that it’s an old study. See the link below regarding a more recent one from 2002. In this study the researcher interviewed 20 erotic dancers and nine were raped or molested as children. The themes are all quite sad, but related to this discussion, the theme of “Now it’s my chance to get even” (p. 1197) and the “struggle between power and weakness” (p. 1198) outlines female erotic dancers that are trying retain power over men, project their issues on them and trying to “break them” and break their marriages. And from what I’ve seen, men are also exerting (or at least trying) power over the dancers. It’s a power play.

http://vaw.sagepub.com/content/8/10/1182.short

So yes, in a dysfunction way, erotic dancers are getting empowered – but it dysfunctional type of empowerment and do nothing to help them heal from the abusive hands of men. We need to help such women (and men) by providing more social programs so that they can move into life areas they prefer.

I want to make it very clear, that although I do not support erotic dancing, I do not condemn people in this job. Many – but not all – have been through hell in life. But I do not know if much social good comes from it.

 

[Sunstone]

A "study"of a mere twenty erotic dancers is a proper study only to the scam artists getting handsomely funded to do it. One wonders how much they kicked back the funding agency for that one.

Moreover, even if we accept the notion that some, many, or all dancers have dysfunctional backgrounds it does not necessarily follow that their dancing itself is dysfunctional behavior on their part. Or are you prepared to argue, using exactly the same absurd reasoning, that a fire fighter exhibits dysfunctional behavior when he or she persists in fighting fires despite burns from flames and depressions from seeing accident victims?

By the way, "dysfunctional behavior" is not a mere synonym for "any behavior we have a low moral opinion of." It is a phrase that basically refers to behavior that results in significant and undesired harm to oneself or others.

There are sixth graders who reason better than the authors of that study. The study's obscurity is more than amply deserved.

 

[trdash]

A "study"of a mere twenty erotic dancers is a proper study only to the scam artists getting handsomely funded to do it. One wonders how much they kicked back the funding agency for that one.

Moreover, even if we accept the notion that some, many, or all dancers have dysfunctional backgrounds it does not necessarily follow that their dancing itself is dysfunctional behavior on their part. Or are you prepared to argue, using exactly the same absurd reasoning, that a fire fighter exhibits dysfunctional behavior when he or she persists in fighting fires despite burns from flames and depressions from seeing accident victims?

By the way, "dysfunctional behavior" is not a mere synonym for "any behavior we have a low moral opinion of." It is a phrase that basically refers to behavior that results in significant and undesired harm to oneself or others.

There are sixth graders who reason better than the authors of that study. The study's obscurity is more than amply deserved.

It is fairly establsihed that more exotic dancers are acting out on past sexual abuse and have all sorts of mental health struggl;es. I ahve provided tow sutdies, and there are much more out there.

 

[Pegg]

It turns out that British erotic dancers feel their job empowers them, rather than exploits them. What do you make of that?

I dont buy it.

I have a friend who worked as a stripper some years back and she has very low self esteem issues. She also claimed that stripping made her feel good, but it was always short lived.

She said she felt that having all the attention was the best part of her job. She loved men oogling her and paying for her services. But she still had the same self esteem issues when she wasnt stripping anyway.

I see it as a temporary satisfaction to the girls ego's. Men love them because they are taking their clothes off and at the end of the night they are just another girl like any other girl.

 

[Skwim]

It is fairly establsihed that more exotic dancers are acting out on past sexual abuse and have all sorts of mental health struggl;es. I ahve provided tow sutdies,

I have to agree with Sunstone that the 20 subjects that Dr. Ross studied doesn't come near to the number from which one could draw the conclusions you present. To be truthful, it's pretty laughable. As for your other source Growing Up Sexualized: Issues of Power and Violence in the lives of Female Exotic Dancers, I'm sorry, but studies done about the psychology of a certain segment of society done by an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice that appeared in the Journal of Contemporary Ethnography, just doesn't cut it.

and there are much more out there.

Yeah, sure.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've always wondered who is really being exploited; the women who are dancing, or the men who paying sometimes hundreds for them to do so.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I've always wondered who is really being exploited; the women who are dancing, or the men who paying sometimes hundreds for them to do so.

Since the men get nothing but a "VIEW" I think it is the men who are getting S....d.

There are probably some girls who have other strings to their bow, but that is their affair, and they are likely to be very highy paid .

The Girls are the Ones in charge.

 

[trdash]

I have to agree with Sunstone that the 20 subjects that Dr. Ross studied doesn't come near to the number from which one could draw the conclusions you present. To be truthful, it's pretty laughable. As for your other source Growing Up Sexualized: Issues of Power and Violence in the lives of Female Exotic Dancers, I'm sorry, but studies done about the psychology of a certain segment of society done by an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice that appeared in the Journal of Contemporary Ethnography, just doesn't cut it.

Yeah, sure.

Skim:

Your response outlines to me that you do not know the difference between qualitative research and quantative research. Qualitative research is often used when you have a difficult time finding large groups of people, or people who will often say no to being in a research study. Because qualitative research focuses on in-depth understanding, they are often more credible than quantative research (although both types of studies are important). You can only do so deep into one’s personality with a survey, and you can go much deeper with interviews, because the researcher can ask questions based on the actual answers of the research respondents. You can’t do this with survey research. Because there is a history of exotic dancers not wanting to be part of research (usually such research participants do not want to talk about their past sexual abuses) – these two studies I have provided are quite remarkable. The Journal of Contemporary Ethnogrpahy is a peer-review top-notch qualitative journal.

Here is another example for you, but it’s not based on research, but is a biography. Jenna Jameson (2004) book How to make love like a porn star became a national best seller due to sexual stories, her book also underscores how her childhood was fought with tragedy (her mother died when she was three, her father went bankrupt) and how she was raped twice before she was seventeen and was depended on differing types of drugs, such as cocaine and crystal-meth (amphetamine).

 

[trdash]

I've always wondered who is really being exploited; the women who are dancing, or the men who paying sometimes hundreds for them to do so.

I do not see one as having the upper hand on the other. Don't you think both groups are simaltenously exploiting each other ina no-win power game?

 

[linwood]

It turns out that British erotic dancers feel their job empowers them, rather than exploits them. What do you make of that?

I`d say it was a common feeling among most strippers no matter where they are.

 

[Darkness]

And there were studies conducted which found 50 per cent of strippers possess either PTSD or a Disassociative Disorder.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do not see one as having the upper hand on the other. Don't you think both groups are simaltenously exploiting each other ina no-win power game?

There will always be cases in which either party can be exploited, such as women who are forced into sex work. But assuming everything is legal and consensual, I know girls who make around $200 on a bad night. I know one girl who not only put herself through college (she did quit after she graduated), she also bought a house, and a brand new Jeep and could afford the gas for her 80 mile round trip to and from work. So really, when no one is being forced to do anything, are the women who are stripping being exploited for doing something they are not being forced to do, or are the patrons being exploited for handing over hundreds of dollars for nothing more than a look?

 

[trdash]

There will always be cases in which either party can be exploited, such as women who are forced into sex work. But assuming everything is legal and consensual, I know girls who make around $200 on a bad night. I know one girl who not only put herself through college (she did quit after she graduated), she also bought a house, and a brand new Jeep and could afford the gas for her 80 mile round trip to and from work. So really, when no one is being forced to do anything, are the women who are stripping being exploited for doing something they are not being forced to do, or are the patrons being exploited for handing over hundreds of dollars for nothing more than a look?

Shadow Wolf:

You ask a really great question. I know there can be different experiences at different settings. But in general, I think both are being exploited simultaneously. Men are purposely using money for women to get naked – the female exotic dancers are doing the exact think these men are paying them for – they are playing right into their hands (no pun intended). And I think if you ask any male who attends a female stripper, he will say that this is his choice, he is not being exploited.

On the other hand, these women are purposely using their bodies for men to empty their wallets – and they are getting what they want – money. And I think if you ask any female strippers about this, they will say that this is their choice, they are not being exploited.

My final answers rest in research. In the two studies I outlined above (and there are more) suggested more exotic dancers than average are working through past sexual abuse. I have read other studies that suggest that the regular stripper customers (not just a single night of adventure) are also working through sexual abuse types of baggage. Most stripper or regular customers are not going to explicitly acknowledge they are working through past abuse – it probable to traumatic to even deal with.

So for me, at the end of the day, in most (but not all) cases, both the strippers and customer are being exploited by the other and at the end of the day, there is no social good. And I think the same work in reverse to male strippers.

 

[Darkness]

Shadow Wolf:

You ask a really great question. I know there can be different experiences at different settings. But in general, I think both are being exploited simultaneously. Men are purposely using money for women to get naked – the female exotic dancers are doing the exact think these men are paying them for – they are playing right into their hands (no pun intended). And I think if you ask any male who attends a female stripper, he will say that this is his choice, he is not being exploited.

On the other hand, these women are purposely using their bodies for men to empty their wallets – and they are getting what they want – money. And I think if you ask any female strippers about this, they will say that this is their choice, they are not being exploited.

My final answers rest in research. In the two studies I outlined above (and there are more) suggested more exotic dancers than average are working through past sexual abuse. I have read other studies that suggest that the regular stripper customers (not just a single night of adventure) are also working through sexual abuse types of baggage. Most stripper or regular customers are not going to explicitly acknowledge they are working through past abuse – it probable to traumatic to even deal with.

So for me, at the end of the day, in most (but not all) cases, both the strippers and customer are being exploited by the other and at the end of the day, there is no social good. And I think the same work in reverse to male strippers.

The stripper-customer relationship is asymmetric. The customer is having his or her sexual-emotional desires fulfilled, while the stripper essentially detaches his or her sexual-emotional desires. Unless money is treated as an end in itself, the customer is the exploiter and the performer the exploited. It is kind of like saying that human traffickers are exploiting those who purchase sex slaves, because they take their money.

 

[Skwim]

Skim:

Your response outlines to me that you do not know the difference between qualitative research and quantative research. Qualitative research is often used when you have a difficult time finding large groups of people, or people who will often say no to being in a research study. Because qualitative research focuses on in-depth understanding, they are often more credible than quantative research (although both types of studies are important). You can only do so deep into one’s personality with a survey, and you can go much deeper with interviews, because the researcher can ask questions based on the actual answers of the research respondents. You can’t do this with survey research. Because there is a history of exotic dancers not wanting to be part of research (usually such research participants do not want to talk about their past sexual abuses) – these two studies I have provided are quite remarkable. The Journal of Contemporary Ethnogrpahy is a peer-review top-notch qualitative journal.

Your original contention in post 42 was

"this empowerment is not always a healthy type of empowerment."
​

To prove your point you then went on to cite the Ross study. But from what you present the Ross study didn't even speak to the healthiness of the empowerment you imply exotic dancing elicits. It only presents current disorders and previous abuse. Yet you make the presumption that "These women were using exotic dancing as an unhealthy way of coping their past sexual abuses." Well, if they were you certainly haven't provided any support for your contention.

However, after rereading the relevant posts here I see that I mistook the conclusion that "These women were using exotic dancing as an unhealthy way of coping their past sexual abuses" was that of Dr, Ross, when, in fact, it was your own. I also see that I confused the 20 exotic dancers "studied" by Wesley for his number of subjects. So I retract my statement concerning his 20 subjects, and therefore, I have no quarrel with the Ross study, only with your interpretation of it as you've presented it.

As for the Jennifer K. Wesley study, aside from the fact that I don't feel an Assistant Professor of Criminal Justice has sufficient background to assess dysfunctional empowerment, I also don't buy your conclusion that whatever empowerment exotic dancers derived was necessarily dysfunctional. She didn't have the background to make that assessment, and according to the abstract never did make it, and you don't have the information to make it either.

Here is another example for you, but it’s not based on research, but is a biography. Jenna Jameson (2004) book How to make love like a porn star became a national best seller due to sexual stories, her book also underscores how her childhood was fought with tragedy (her mother died when she was three, her father went bankrupt) and how she was raped twice before she was seventeen and was depended on differing types of drugs, such as cocaine and crystal-meth (amphetamine).

One swallow doesn't make a summer. And what does past history have to do with your claim that the empowerment derived from exotic dancing is dysfunctional?