Buddha and Christ - Convergent or Divergent?

[Dawnofhope]

That is not what I said. I said that this world is the only experience we know to be real. That there is an afterlife is merely a belief. The ego does not want to die, but to go on in perpetuity, so we invent the notion of an 'afterlife' where it can be preserved for all eternity as a means of assuaging our metaphysical anxiety. The problem is that who and what we are is integrated into the tapestry of this life. This same person will be out of context in any 'next life'. It is not designed to integrate into any other life but the current one. The only solution is for it to dissolve away, and its life to return to the Source from which it came. That it goes on to live in some other realm is just a fantasy. We know of no such 'other world'. To conceive of 'another realm' is nothing more than a 'substantial, delusive idea'.

You can make assumptions as to why people believe in an afterlife based on a presumption of their fears and anxieties. You can yell and scream and call those who believe in an afterlife deluded. But that is my belief based on the Teachings of Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah. I accept your belief though I don't agree with it. I have no wish to belittle or criticise and its unrelated to the OP.

The 'soul' of reincarnation is not an eternal entity. It dissolves upon spiritual Awakening, or Nirvana, as the identity of the drop vanishes upon its return to the vast ocean. The Abrahamic belief in a soul that goes on after death is just an idea, one designed to provide relief from anxiety over one's ultimate fate.

That soul of reincarnation that you mention is certainly one but not the only belief in the soul held by Buddhists.

Your comment about Abrahamic belief is simply a reflection of your negative emotions.

What it says is that 'salvation' can only come via the shedding of the blood of one 'Jesus Christ', a pagan and superstitious belief superimposed over the authentic teachings of Yeshua, who did not teach that doctrine. Nor did he teach the doctrine of the resurrection of the body.

So once again, I ask you: regardless of what the religions say, what is YOUR experience of an 'afterlife'? I know of none whatsoever.

You have your beliefs about what Jesus taught as I have mine. I'm a Baha'i, not a conservative Christian. It's hard it is to know with any certainty exactly what Christ or Buddha really taught, especially Buddha. The foundation of my belief is Baha'u'llah and that is MY experience of the afterlife.

 

[godnotgod]

If we are to understand the gospels properly we need to consider all the Teachings of Christ not just those that suit our worldview and accept the wisdom of the Apostles. I’m not sure your worldview does. The New Testament clearly refers to an afterlife and what is necessary to attain salvation.

I did not post Matthew 6 to support MY worldview, but to demonstrate that the Gospels sometimes reveal Yeshua's worldview, wherever his original teachings are found amongst corrupted ones. It appears to me that these original teachings may have survived the Council of Nicea's censorship due to the Church Fathers' ignorance of authentic spirituality.

The meaning of the excerpt I posted from Matthew 6 (also known as 'The Wisdom of Insecurity'):

Matthew 6
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

...does not change when read in context of Matthew 6 in its entirety. What I posted is crystal clear, and is some of Yeshua's original teachings that survived the pagan teachings that his were overwritten with.* That means that you cannot understand Matthew 6, for one, by placing it into the context of the entire NT, because of those corruptions. Matthew 6 stands in contradiction to your claim that we must prepare ourselves for a 'next world'.

That Paradise is found in THIS world is reflected in:

Matthew 18:3
Most certainly I tell you, unless you turn, and become as little children, you will in no way enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

and...

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[godnotgod]

You can make assumptions as to why people believe in an afterlife based on a presumption of their fears and anxieties. You can yell and scream and call those who believe in an afterlife deluded. But that is my belief based on the Teachings of Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha'u'llah. I accept your belief though I don't agree with it. I have no wish to belittle or criticise and its unrelated to the OP.

That people turn to a God to alleviate themselves of metaphysical anxiety is a well known fact, and not an assumption which I am proposing.

I am not yelling or screaming, a condition that must exist in YOUR mind, and not in mine.

To believe in something that simply is not there, and to transform this belief into absolute truth is called 'delusion'.

You are espousing a belief in an afterlife, but this belief is not something we know to be true, either evidentially or experientially. To know that such an afterlife is in fact a reality, one would, of course need to die in order to experience such a place. Since I assume you are still alive, you cannot say that your belief is a reality. It is merely your belief based on the alleged authority of others.

What I have said to you is not based upon belief, but upon reality in this world which is the ONLY world you and I know for certain to be real. The 'Teachings of Jesus' clearly point to the experience of spiritual joy to be found in this world, and that experience can be known here and now while we are still alive, which is the experience of both the Buddha and of Yeshua:

"Before Abraham was, I Am"

That soul of reincarnation that you mention is certainly one but not the only belief in the soul held by Buddhists.

It is the primary Buddhist view. The self, or soul, is seen as 'empty of inherent self'. IOW, it is an illusion. But because it is given energy via consciousness, it creates a fatuity known as the Wheel of Birth and Rebirth. It only comes to an end when Awakening occurs.

Your comment about Abrahamic belief is simply a reflection of your negative emotions.

What!!?? My comment is driven by hatred, greed, jealousy, avarice, and anger? You're clearly making things up. Show me where my comment does not point to anxiety over one's fate.

You have your beliefs about what Jesus taught as I have mine. I'm a Baha'i, not a conservative Christian. It's hard it is to know with any certainty exactly what Christ or Buddha really taught, especially Buddha. The foundation of my belief is Baha'u'llah and that is MY experience of the afterlife.

I have not expressed beliefs about Jesus; I have presented what Yeshua actually said. Show me that what he said can be interpreted as a matter of belief.

The mistake most practitioners make is to attempt to understand what Jesus or the Buddha meant by reading the scriptures. They think they can gain understanding about something they have no experience with via conventional thought. They can't because they have everything backwards, which is precisely why mystics throughout the world put the scriptures aside and turn instead to the living Source that lies within, which is exactly what both Yeshua and Buddha advised us to do. Yeshua said:

John 5:39
You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me

Our consciousness must first be transformed by the spirit before we can even think about understanding what the scriptures mean. This is precisely what Yeshua means when he says: 'Unless you turn', meaning to turn inwards to the Source within, and away from the corrupted morality of society.

There is but one Source, one Ultimate Reality. It is the same one Reality that you and I can experience directly which is exactly the same one Reallity of Yeshua and the Buddha. It is not something open to interpretation via personal view, which is the reason why the enlightened see the same thing all over the world without having to consult a book or some outside authority. The same Source resides within all of them. If there be an 'afterlife', it is simply what one experiences after the realization of one's own enlightened state, always in the here and now.

Sorry, but unless you are dead and have returned to planet Earth, you have NO experience of any such 'afterlife'. Your religious belief is NOT an experience of the afterlife. It is just a belief, and nothing more. Accept that, and perhaps you may one day have an enlightening spiritual experience which will wipe out all beliefs.

Cheers

 

[Dawnofhope]

That people turn to a God to alleviate themselves of metaphysical anxiety is a well known fact, and not an assumption which I am proposing.

Some do no doubt. OTOH you’re making gross generalisations about more than half the world’s population who follow Abrahamic Faiths.

I am not yelling or screaming, a condition that must exist in YOUR mind, and not in mine.

When you start labeling beliefs you disagree with delusional you may as well be.

To believe in something that simply is not there, and to transform this belief into absolute truth is called 'delusion'.

So we really have little to talk about then.

 

[godnotgod]

Some do no doubt. OTOH you’re making gross generalisations about more than half the world’s population who follow Abrahamic Faiths.

Due to the belief nature of the Abrahamic religions, doubt is the natural outcome. Doubt, especially when the stakes are so high as to the fate of the 'soul', naturally generates a certain amount of anxiety. In order to deal with anxiety, one must force a square peg into a round hole by transforming belief into absolute truth. That way, one is 'certain' that what one believes is true. It's a circular, self-reinforcing argument. I should know how this works. I was raised a Christian.

When you start labeling beliefs you disagree with delusional you may as well be.

Now you're clutching at straws, so please don't try to put up smokescreens. I label beliefs as delusional that claim that something is real, when there is nothing, either evidentially or experientially, to demonstrate this to be the case. I disagree that such beliefs represent reality simply because they don't. Quite simple, really.

delusional
1. characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

2. based on or having faulty judgment; mistaken.

So we really have little to talk about then.

All I am saying is that your belief in an afterlife does not make it true. Why can't you understand that it is merely a belief? If you could learn to see it that way, instead of attaching yourself to it as 'MY belief', you might develop a clearer view of what reality is. The question is: what is it that compels you to see belief as truth, when it is not?

 

[paarsurrey]

Buddha's wording about God is the Universal Mind, which is the Source of all reality.
Yeshua's wording about God is the Most High, which is the Source of all reality.

Buddha was not following Hinduism.
Yeshua was not following Judaism.

In my opinion.

Universal mind denotes attribute of G-d, Rabb-ul-Alameen* - one who nourishes Universally or promotes human faculties including the mind/intellect universally.

Most High is another attribute of G-d, Kabeer , G-d is the Most High**.

Regards
______________
*[1:2]
All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 1: Al-Fatihah
**[22:62]
That is because Allah is the Truth, and that which they call upon other than Him is falsehood, and because Allah is the Most High, the Grand.
http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=22&verse=62

 

[paarsurrey]

No. Buddha does away with nothing because there is nothing to do away with. There is devotion, not to a persona that is a projection of the ego, but to Ultimate Reality, ie 'Dharma'. Buddha simply realized that his true nature is none other than Ultimate Reality itself, which is empty of inherent self-nature.

Is the Yeshua reference to 'Rule of God' and 'Holy Spirit' that of a persona?

When you refer to 'Yeshua', are you talking about the modern image of 'Jesus', or the authentic Yeshua, prior to his teachings having been corrupted with pagan doctrines, like blood sacrifice and bodily resurrection?

"but to Ultimate Reality, ie 'Dharma' " Unquote

Being Ultimate Reality is another attribute of G-d, Al-Akhar- the Ultimate* one or the Last of All.

Regards
_____________
*[57:4]
He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He knows all things full well.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 57: Al-Hadid

 

[paarsurrey]

Actually, the Ultimate Reality in Hinduism is Brahman, 'The Ground of all Being', or 'Pure Consciousness'. Both the jiva of Hinduism and the seeker in Buddhism merge with the same One Reality.

"Actually, the Ultimate Reality in Hinduism is Brahman"

And this way Hinduism Religions and Buddha depict the same reality as mentioned in Quran, as explained by me in my post #107 above .I believe Ultimate Reality is G-d.

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

"Actually, the Ultimate Reality in Hinduism is Brahman"

And this way Hinduism Religions and Buddha depict the same reality as mentioned in Quran, as explained by me in my post #107 above .I believe Ultimate Reality is G-d.

Regards

Paar, you're free to believe they are the same, but most, if not all Hindus, don't. I most certainly don't.

One primary and irreconcilable difference is monistic view versus dualistic view.

 

[CG Didymus]

Due to the belief nature of the Abrahamic religions, doubt is the natural outcome. Doubt, especially when the stakes are so high as to the fate of the 'soul', naturally generates a certain amount of anxiety. In order to deal with anxiety, one must force a square peg into a round hole by transforming belief into absolute truth. That way, one is 'certain' that what one believes is true. It's a circular, self-reinforcing argument. I should know how this works. I was raised a Christian.



Now you're clutching at straws, so please don't try to put up smokescreens. I label beliefs as delusional that claim that something is real, when there is nothing, either evidentially or experientially, to demonstrate this to be the case. I disagree that such beliefs represent reality simply because they don't. Quite simple, really.

delusional
1. characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder.

2. based on or having faulty judgment; mistaken.



All I am saying is that your belief in an afterlife does not make it true. Why can't you understand that it is merely a belief? If you could learn to see it that way, instead of attaching yourself to it as 'MY belief', you might develop a clearer view of what reality is. The question is: what is it that compels you to see belief as truth, when it is not?

Baha'is don't believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. They don't believe in Satan and hell. They believe those things are merely symbolic and to believe them literally goes against science and reason and is having superstitious beliefs. Wouldn't that be like saying those people are delusional?

So what's the difference between what you're saying and what Baha'is really believe about Christians? And that is one problem with answers from Baha'is. They agree with and disagree with all the other religions at the same time. But one thing for sure, they mean well.

 

[godnotgod]

"Actually, the Ultimate Reality in Hinduism is Brahman"

And this way Hinduism Religions and Buddha depict the same reality as mentioned in Quran, as explained by me in my post #107 above .I believe Ultimate Reality is G-d.

Regards

Brahman is 'Pure Consciousness', which you feel a need to anthropomorphise. Why?

 

[godnotgod]

"but to Ultimate Reality, ie 'Dharma' " Unquote

Being Ultimate Reality is another attribute of G-d, Al-Akhar- the Ultimate* one or the Last of All.

Regards
_____________
*[57:4]
He is the First and the Last, and the Manifest and the Hidden, and He knows all things full well.
The Holy Quran - Chapter: 57: Al-Hadid

How can that be if it is The Ultimate Reality? IOW, being The Ultimate, there is nothing beyond or above it. You keep wanting to create an add-on you call 'God'. What's up with that?

 

[godnotgod]

Universal mind denotes attribute of G-d...

Why are you creating an agent of Universal Mind you call 'God'? Are they not one and the same?

It's like saying that a tree is made of wood. A tree is not made of wood. It IS wood.

 

[godnotgod]

Baha'is don't believe Jesus rose physically from the dead. They don't believe in Satan and hell. They believe those things are merely symbolic and to believe them literally goes against science and reason and is having superstitious beliefs. Wouldn't that be like saying those people are delusional?

So what's the difference between what you're saying and what Baha'is really believe about Christians? And that is one problem with answers from Baha'is. They agree with and disagree with all the other religions at the same time. But one thing for sure, they mean well.

The issue with what adrian009 said is about the belief in an afterlife, a belief he maintains which, for him, is equivalent to reality. I was merely pointing out that no one has any direct experience or evidence of such a place; all we know for certain is that we are here, now, in this Earthly existence, and that is ALL we know.

 

[Marcion]

How can that be if it is The Ultimate Reality? IOW, being The Ultimate, there is nothing beyond or above it. You keep wanting to create an add-on you call 'God'. What's up with that?

But if you see God as an acronym for Generator Operater Destroyer, then it becomes clear that this is not an anthropomorphic view of God at all but one beyond creation (beyond time, place and person), so Ultimate Reality of Supreme Consciousness.

 

[godnotgod]

But if you see God as an acronym for Generator Operater Destroyer, then it becomes clear that this is not an anthropomorphic view of God at all but one beyond creation (beyond time, place and person), so Ultimate Reality of Supreme Consciousness.

But the moment you call this Supreme Consciousness an AGENT of creation and destruction, then you are now talking about a person. I see creation and destruction, but no agent of these phenomena. Such an 'agent' is purely a concoction of mind, in exactly the same manner as 'I think, therefore, I am', an archaic mental construct; a self-created principle.

We may point to a 'whirlpool' of whirling water, but the reality is that there is no such 'whirlpool'; there is only whirling water, without an agent of whirling water called 'whirlpool'. In the same manner, there is no agent of creation and destruction called 'God'; there is only creation and destruction, sans an agent of these events.

In the Hindu view, 'Supreme Consciousness' is none other than Brahman, 'The Changeless'. Being 'The Changeless', all things 'changing' are but maya. Supreme Consciousness is Perfection itself, and is not in need of change in order to become perfect. This world of creation and destruction is but a play of Brahman. Only Brahman is the true Reality; The Changeless.

1st observer: 'the flag is moving'
2nd observer: 'no, the wind is moving'
3rd observer: 'both wind and flag are moving'
passerby: 'all wrong! your minds are moving!'
Zen source

 

[Marcion]

But the moment you call this Supreme Consciousness an AGENT of creation and destruction, then you are now talking about a person.

Incorrect, you are not talking about a person because Brahma or the Supreme Conscousness has no physical body or shape since "He" ("It") is beyond time, place and person. He is the Supreme Subject and there is nothing to be objectified about Him. Just for the sake of identifying our goal do we talk about Brahma or the Supreme Consciousness or Subject as if we are not talking about something entirely subjective.

So in Buddhism you choose to just deny it or not talk about it in order to not fall into the trap that the Ultimate Reality has anything to do with the objective world, that it can be found outside of our own subjective mind (like happens with people who worship idols).
How Brahma can project the objective universe without having a body or a brain is a complete mystery to us while we are still caught up in Maya. We cannot imagine a Supreme Subject without the objectieve world and that is why Buddha remained silent when he was asked about it.

 

[godnotgod]

Incorrect, you are not talking about a person because Brahma or the Supreme Conscousness has no physical body or shape since "He" ("It") is beyond time, place and person. He is the Supreme Subject and there is nothing to be objectified about Him. Just for the sake of identifying our goal do we talk about Brahma or the Supreme Consciousness or Subject as if we are not talking about something entirely subjective.

So in Buddhism you choose to just deny it or not talk about it in order to not fall into the trap that the Ultimate Reality has anything to do with the objective world, that it can be found outside of our own subjective mind (like happens with people who worship idols).
How Brahma can project the objective universe without having a body or a brain is a complete mystery to us while we are still caught up in Maya. We cannot imagine a Supreme Subject without the objectieve world and that is why Buddha remained silent when he was asked about it.

I am afraid you are confounding Brahman, the impersonal 'ground of all Being', aka 'Pure Consciousness', with the Hindu creator-god 'Brahma'.

The moment you refer to 'Brahma' as 'He', you have created the anthropomorphic concept of personhood, regardless of whether a body is present or not.

To refer to 'Brahma' as 'the Supreme Subject' is to objectify Brahma.

Subject and object exist only as conceptual frameworks within the mind, but Pure Consciousness is without this subject/object split, and THAT is what Brahman is, which is why it is beyond Time, Space, and Causation. Otherwise, Brahman is a duality.

Brahman does not project the 'material' world; the material world is none other than Brahman, playing itself as 'the material world', or 'maya'. Brahman is maya. You and I are none other than Brahman. In the words of Vivekenanda, Vedantist mystic:

"The Universe IS [none other than] The Absolute, as seen through the glass [ie 'mind'] of Time, Space, and Causation"

See here:
https://www.discovervedanta.com/downloads/articles/brahman-and-maya.pdf

 

[CG Didymus]

The issue with what adrian009 said is about the belief in an afterlife, a belief he maintains which, for him, is equivalent to reality. I was merely pointing out that no one has any direct experience or evidence of such a place; all we know for certain is that we are here, now, in this Earthly existence, and that is ALL we know.

I agree and I don't see how Baha'is can argue against it, because they say that if beliefs don't agree with science, then it is superstition. So until science can prove an afterlife, what more can a Baha'i say but that's a belief and not a provable reality?