Buddha and Jesus

[crossfire]

I agree that Alexandria would be one of the more likely places someone would come into contact with Buddhism in the Near East/Mediterranean world. Still, while I know that Ashoka sent missionaries throughout the lands, and some may very well have ended up in Egypt, I am unaware of any sustained Buddhist community in Egypt. Not saying there wasn't, only that I am ignorant of one if it did exist.

Too bad the Library of Alexandria burned down. :/

 

[von bek]

Thich Nhat Hanh also wrote "Living Buddha, Living Christ," where he equated being filled with the Holy Spirit with being filled with mindfulness. It took me a few years for me to grasp the implications of this and understand it, but when I finally did, it was one of those *doh!* moments.

Interesting, not sure how I feel about that analogy. I have never read that book, so I cannot comment in a meaningful way.

On the note of interesting connections between the Buddhist and Christian communities, I know of several Buddhists, including some monks, who make note of the fact that Christians hold their hands in prayer in the same manner Buddhists hold their hands when giving respect. Why this is considered interesting is because the hands are not held in that manner in Jewish prayers. (Prayers in Judaism and Islam typically seem to hold their hands out in front, palms up.) So, where did this form come from? We do know that everywhere Buddhism spread, that hand motion of respect traveled with it, from Tibet to Japan. Now, if true, this has nothing to do with Jesus himself having knowledge of Buddhism, but of the early Christian community, probably monks, interacting with Buddhist monks. Of course, then you would need to ask when and where this cultural exchange occurred. I am not saying this exchange actually happened, it is entirely possible that the early Christian community arrived at that form for prayer in an entirely different and reasonable manner. (For instance, perhaps there were Jewish communities that did hold their hands in prayer in that way.)

 

[von bek]

Too bad the Library of Alexandria burned down. :/

I was about to like this post, until I considered that this was an event I could hardly say I like. So instead, imagine a single tear rolling down my face as I type.

 

[crossfire]

Interesting, not sure how I feel about that analogy. I have never read that book, so I cannot comment in a meaningful way.

On the note of interesting connections between the Buddhist and Christian communities, I know of several Buddhists, including some monks, who make note of the fact that Christians hold their hands in prayer in the same manner Buddhists hold their hands when giving respect. Why this is considered interesting is because the hands are not held in that manner in Jewish prayers. (Prayers in Judaism and Islam typically seem to hold their hands out in front, palms up.) So, where did this form come from? We do know that everywhere Buddhism spread, that hand motion of respect traveled with it, from Tibet to Japan. Now, if true, this has nothing to do with Jesus himself having knowledge of Buddhism, but of the early Christian community, probably monks, interacting with Buddhist monks. Of course, then you would need to ask when and where this cultural exchange occurred. I am not saying this exchange actually happened, it is entirely possible that the early Christian community arrived at that form for prayer in an entirely different and reasonable manner. (For instance, perhaps there were Jewish communities that did hold their hands in prayer in that way.)

The western left hand paths also have quite a number of mudras in common with Buddhism, so the Christians might have gotten that mudra from the same source.

 

[crossfire]

This isn't specifically about Jesus, but 1 Corinthians 12 & 13 sounds very similar to Makyo and Kensho, respectively. (I know, Christianity pre-dates Zen Buddhism.)

 

[Vouthon]

This is not specifically about Jesus either but I do think there are compelling similarities between Christian and Buddhist monasticism, along with Christian 'contemplation' and Buddhist 'meditation' (whether Samadhi and/or Vispassana) as described in the Tipitaka.

It is thought that the monastic movement within Early Christianity, which had its locus in the Egyptian desert and its intellectual home in the city of Alexandria (where the Alexandrian Fathers such as Origen and St. Clement of Alexandria had a flourishing theological school), originated with a Jewish sect in Egypt known throughout antiquity (from the account given by Philo of Alexandria) as the Therapeutae. This Jewish 'sect' or 'movement' is interesting, among other things, for it having been possibly influenced by Buddhism:


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Therapeutae

The Therapeutae (meaning: "healers") were an ancient order of mystical ascetics who lived in many parts of the ancient world but were found especially near Alexandria, the capital city of Ptolemaic Egypt. This pre-Christian group of Jewish ascetics is known today only from the writings of Philo of Alexandria, who described the group in his De Vita Contemplativa (On the Contemplative Life), written around 10 C.E. Philo compared the Therapeutae to the Essenes as both sects were known for their exemplary religious devotion and ascetic practices...

Forerunners of early Christian monastic orders

Philo's monachism has been seen as the forerunner of and the model for the Christian ascetic life. It has even been considered as the earliest description of Christian monasticism. This view was first espoused by Eusebius of Caesarea in his Ecclesiastical History.[5]

The practices described by Philo were considered as one of the first models of Christian monastic life. Eusebius was so sure of the identification of Therapeutae with Christians that he deduced that Philo, who admired them so, must have been Christian himself.[6] This assumption prevailed in Christian circles until the end of the eighteenth century, when it was discovered that Philo's essay was pre-Christian...

Buddhism

Some scholars have suggested that the Therapeutae may have been influenced by (or decendents of) Emperor Ashoka's Buddhist missionaries from ancient India. The similarities between the monastic practices of the Therapeutae and Buddhist monastic practices have led to suggestions that the Therapeutae were in fact Buddhist monks who had reached Alexandria, descendants of Ashoka's emissaries to the West, and who influenced the early formation of Christianity.[7] The ancient city of Alexandria in Egypt had Buddhist missionary activity around 250 B.C.E. The Therapeutae could have been the descendants of Ashoka's emissaries to the West, and thus could have influenced the early formation of Christianity.[7] Egypt had intense trade and cultural contacts with India during the period, as described in the first century C.E. Periplus of the Erythraean Sea.
​

So it would appear that Buddhists may have influenced Egyptian Jews who in turn influenced Egyptian Christians which led in time to an enduring movement called "monasticism" that utterly transformed the Christian religion.

The 'Desert Fathers and Mothers' of the third century AD onwards are the 'pioneers' of Christian spirituality and asceticism. Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Anglicans and many more denominations look to their sayings and hagiographical life stories for inspiration even today.

 

[Vouthon]

In furtherance to the above, one of the later Desert Fathers named Abba Evagrius Ponticus (345-399) systematized and harmonized the disparate teachings, sayings and practices of his predecessors into a clear 'system' that became highly influential with later contemplatives. His disciple St. John Cassian was instrumental in the foundation of Western monasticism through his book The Conferences.

Abba Evagrius' structure of the contemplative life as beginning with the "purgative", proceeding to the "illuminative" stage and then concluding with the "contemplative" proper is the same basic tripartite structure that has been employed by all subsequent contemplatives till the present day.

His system is intriguing for our purposes given that it may have affinities with Buddhist thought.

Consider his teachings on watchfulness:

"...If there is any monk who wishes to take the measure of some of the more fierce passions so as to gain experience in his monastic art, then let him keep careful watch over his thoughts. Let him observe their intensity, their periods of decline and follow them as they rise and fall. Let him note well the complexity of his thoughts, their periodicity, with the order of their succession and the nature of their associations. Then let him ask from Christ the explanations of these data he has observed..."

Abba Evagrius Ponticus (345-399 AD), Early Christian contemplative & monk, The Praktikos & Chapters on Prayer

​

A modern Benedictine priest and contemplative explains this practice as follows:

"...After seasons of practice, the fruit is the stillness, inner focus, and recollection of that dimension of human awareness that thinks, chatters, obsesses, and swarms like a plague of gnats...

Saint Augustine speaks of a higher part of the mind reserved for the contemplation of God and a lower part of the mind that reasons. Evagrius Ponticus, a fourth-century monk, is one of a host of contemplative writers to make an important distinction between the calculating, reasoning mind that makes use of concepts in a process we call ratiocination or discursive thought, and that dimension of mind that comes to knowledge directly, without the mediation of concepts. This he later called nous, an intuitive spiritual intelligence. And so when he defines prayer as 'communion of the mind with God,' he means a dimension of our conciousness that runs deeper than the discursive process of ratiocination..."

- Fr Martin Laird, modern Catholic contemplative writer & priest

​

Could this be similar to "mindfulness"? And were the early Christian monks in the Egyptian desert practising it, partially at least, under indirect influence from Buddhism filtered through the Therapeutae?

 

[von bek]

Great post, @Vouthon. I think the most interesting aspect to consider when it comes to connections are not about whether Jesus had knowledge of Buddhism, but of whether the Buddhist and Christian communities had direct contact in ancient times.

In the modern day, Buddhist and Christian monks are having vibrant exchanges in some locations.

 

[crossfire]

Hmm. Theravada, Therapeutae. If I remember correctly, Greek doesn't have a "V" sound. Hebrew words with a "v" often get replaced with a "b." I don't know if there are any instances of "v" getting replaced with a "p," instead. Interesting, though.

Therapeutae is associated with healing, so that certainly fits in with Jesus and the Early Christians.

 

[von bek]

​

Could this be similar to "mindfulness"? And where the early Christian monks in the Egyptian desert practising it, partially at least, under indirect influence from Buddhism filtered through the Therapeutae?

That first passage you quoted does suggest a similarity with mindfulness as taught by the Buddha. I refer to this passage:

"...If there is any monk who wishes to take the measure of some of the more fierce passions so as to gain experience in his monastic art, then let him keep careful watch over his thoughts. Let him observe their intensity, their periods of decline and follow them as they rise and fall. Let him note well the complexity of his thoughts, their periodicity, with the order of their succession and the nature of their associations. Then let him ask from Christ the explanations of these data he has observed..."

The specific part that gets my attention is where the author says, "...follow them as they rise and fall." Observing the rise and fall of physical and mental phenomenon is absolutely crucial to the practice of mindfulness meditation. The Buddha instructs us to meditate and observe the three marks in what we encounter. These three marks are dukkha (unsatisfactoriness), anicca (impermanence), and anatta (not-self). In seeing all physical and mental objects rise and fall, we understand both their impermanence and their interdependent nature.

 

[crossfire]

In furtherance to the above, one of the later Desert Fathers named Abba Evagrius Ponticus (345-399) systematized and harmonized the disparate teachings, sayings and practices of his predecessors into a clear 'system' that became highly influential with later contemplatives. His disciple St. John Cassian was instrumental in the foundation of Western monasticism through his book The Conferences.

Abba Evagrius' structure of the contemplative life as beginning with the "purgative", proceeding to the "illuminative" stage and then concluding with the "contemplative" proper is the same basic tripartite structure that has been employed by all subsequent contemplatives till the present day.

His system is intriguing for our purposes given that it may have affinities with Buddhist thought.

Consider his teachings on watchfulness:

"...If there is any monk who wishes to take the measure of some of the more fierce passions so as to gain experience in his monastic art, then let him keep careful watch over his thoughts. Let him observe their intensity, their periods of decline and follow them as they rise and fall. Let him note well the complexity of his thoughts, their periodicity, with the order of their succession and the nature of their associations. Then let him ask from Christ the explanations of these data he has observed..."

Abba Evagrius Ponticus (345-399 AD), Early Christian contemplative & monk, The Praktikos & Chapters on Prayer

​

A modern Benedictine priest and contemplative explains this practice as follows:

"...After seasons of practice, the fruit is the stillness, inner focus, and recollection of that dimension of human awareness that thinks, chatters, obsesses, and swarms like a plague of gnats...

Saint Augustine speaks of a higher part of the mind reserved for the contemplation of God and a lower part of the mind that reasons. Evagrius Ponticus, a fourth-century monk, is one of a host of contemplative writers to make an important distinction between the calculating, reasoning mind that makes use of concepts in a process we call ratiocination or discursive thought, and that dimension of mind that comes to knowledge directly, without the mediation of concepts. This he later called nous, an intuitive spiritual intelligence. And so when he defines prayer as 'communion of the mind with God,' he means a dimension of our conciousness that runs deeper than the discursive process of ratiocination..."

- Fr Martin Laird, modern Catholic contemplative writer & priest

​

Could this be similar to "mindfulness"? And were the early Christian monks in the Egyptian desert practising it, partially at least, under indirect influence from Buddhism filtered through the Therapeutae?

Yes, that sounds very Buddhist. Von Bek described the first part. The second part has some similarities with some of the jhanas, as well as some Zen techniques regarding the "monkey mind" and "quiet mind."

 

[von bek]

Also, the talk of keeping watch over your thoughts to guard against passion has a lot in common with the Buddha's constant exhortation to "guard the sense-bases."

 

[von bek]

For anyone reading this and is wondering what @crossfire means when she speaks of the jhanas, I give you this link as an incredibly brief introduction:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-samadhi/jhana.html

 

[Vouthon]

That first passage you quoted does suggest a similarity with mindfulness as taught by the Buddha. I refer to this passage:

The specific part that gets my attention is where the author says, "...follow them as they rise and fall." Observing the rise and fall of physical and mental phenomenon is absolutely crucial to the practice of mindfulness meditation. The Buddha instructs us to meditate and observe the three marks in what we encounter. These three marks are dukkha (unsatisfactoriness), anicca (impermanence), and anatta (not-self). In seeing all physical and mental objects rise and fall, we understand both their impermanence and their interdependent nature.

A most informative post, thank you Von Bek!

This is very interesting to me, not least owing to the fact that Abba Evagrius' teachings on 'watchfulness' form the basis of Western monasticism as a whole. It is a complicated tale of transmission but at its most basic level Evangrius' system was transmitted by his disciple St. John Cassian to Gaul and then influenced the Rule of St. Benedict which in turn became the foundation for all monastic orders henceforth in the West. He had a similar, overriding influence upon the development of Hesychasm in the East as well.

So if there are affinities between Abba Evagrius and the Dhamma of Gautama Buddha, then this has implications for the entire span of Christian monastic history ever-after. And one cannot get passed the seeming 'coincidence' that this all originated from Egypt and Alexandria - Ashoka's missionaries, the Therapeutae, the first desert monks.

That brings me to the East, actually, to the 'Hesychasm' I just mentioned. (I'll move back to the West later).

Now the Hesychasts - whom you may know now as 'Eastern Orthodox/'Eastern Catholic' monks - they developed a series of bodily postures, ostensibly to bring prayer down to the 'heart', which involved a practice called (somewhat pejoratively) "navel-gazing". This is interesting because it involved - and still does involve to this day - focusing upon the in-drawing and exhaling of the 'breath':

"...Above all else you should strive to acquire three things, and so begin to attain what you seek.

The first is freedom from anxiety with respect to everything, whether reasonable or senseless – in other words, you should be dead to everything.

Secondly, you should strive to preserve a pure conscience, so that it has nothing to reproach you with.

Thirdly, you should be completely detached, so that your thoughts incline towards nothing worldly, not even your own body.

Then sit down in a quiet cell, in a corner by yourself, and do what I tell you. Close the door, and withdraw your intellect from everything worthless and transient. Rest your beard on your chest, and focus your gaze, together with the whole of your intellect, upon the centre of your belly or your navel. Restrain the drawing in of breath through your nostrils, so as not to breathe easily, and search inside yourself with your intellect so as to find the place of the heart, where all the powers of the soul reside. To start with, you will find there darkness and as impenetrable density. Later, when you persist and practice this task day and night, you will find, as though miraculously, an unceasing joy. For as soon as the intellect attains the place of the heart it beholds itself entirely luminous and full of discrimination. From then on, from whatever side a distractive thought may appear, before it has come to completion and assumed a form, the intellect immediately drives it away and destroys it with the invocation of Jesus Christ...The rest you will learn for yourself, with God’s help, by keeping guarding over your intellect and by retaining Jesus in your heart. As the saying goes, “Sit in your cell and it will teach you everything.”..."

- Saint Symeon the New Theologian (949–1022 AD), Philokalia IV, pp72-73​

I could be wrong but this strikes me as not all that dissimilar from the Buddhist meditation method of Anapanasati or "mindfulness of breathing."

This can simply be a practice of focusing upon the breathing or lead eventually to the so-called "Jesus Prayer", in which the practitioner repeats the name of Jesus or the phrase, "Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on me a sinner" over and over again, usually while focusing upon the breath.

 

[Vouthon]

Thich Nhat Hanh also wrote "Living Buddha, Living Christ," where he equated being filled with the Holy Spirit with being filled with mindfulness. It took me a few years for me to grasp the implications of this and understand it, but when I finally did, it was one of those *doh!* moments.

I haven't had the opportunity to read this book either (but will certainly order it now that you've brought it to my attention), but I do know that St. Augustine of Hippo referred to the Holy Spirit as leading people with "unquiet", "restless" minds full of "aimless" thoughts to a state of "rest" and "luminosity". He claimed that this was the true, underlying meaning of the Sabbath:

"...'Remember the sabbath day, to sanctify it'. The third commandment enjoins a regular, periodical holiday - quietness of heart, tranquility of mind. This is holiness, the product of a clear conscience. Because here is the Spirit of God. This is what a true holiday means, quietness and rest. Unquiet people recoil from the Holy Spirit. They love quarreling. They love argument. In their restlessness they do not allow the silence of the Lord's Sabbath to enter their lives, the quietness of the spiritual sabbath to enter into their lives. Against such restlessness we are offered a kind of Sabbath in the heart. As if God were saying 'stop being so restless, quieten the uproar in your minds. Let go of the idle fantasies that fly around in your head.' God is saying, 'Be still and see that I am God." (Ps 46) But you refuse to be still. You are like the Egyptians tormented by gnats. These tiniest of flies, always restless, flying about aimlessly, swarm at your eyes, giving no rest. They are back as soon as you drive them off. Just like the futile fantasies that swarm in our minds. Keep the commandment. Beware of this plague...We are not ordered to keep the sabbath day by a literal corporal abstinence from work, as the Jews observe it — and, indeed, that observance of theirs, because it is so commanded, is considered ludicrous unless it signifies some other spiritual rest...The only commandment which is given figuratively is the one by which rest is enjoined...But the rite of the sabbath was taught to our ancient Fathers which we Christians observe spiritually, so that we abstain from all servile work, that is, from sin and we have rest in our hearts, that is, spiritual tranquility..."

- Saint Augustine of Hippo (354 –430), Church Father, mystic & Doctor of the Church
​

To Saint Augustine the "Sabbath" means a peaceful mind.

As Martin Laird explains when commenting on this passage:

"...After seasons of practice, the fruit is the stillness, inner focus, and recollection of that dimension of human awareness that thinks, chatters, obsesses, and swarms like a plague of gnats. St Augustine's vivid description of this in his Sermon on the Third Commandment, keeping holy the Sabbath, has the ring of personal experience..."

- Fr Martin Laird, modern Catholic contemplative writer & priest​

 

[von bek]

"...Above all else you should strive to acquire three things, and so begin to attain what you seek.

The first is freedom from anxiety with respect to everything, whether reasonable or senseless – in other words, you should be dead to everything.

Secondly, you should strive to preserve a pure conscience, so that it has nothing to reproach you with.

Thirdly, you should be completely detached, so that your thoughts incline towards nothing worldly, not even your own body.​

The Buddha teaches that we must overcome the hindrances to make progress in our path to Nibbana. One of these hindrances is anxiety, another is regret. Regret is fear of the past, anxiety or worry is fear for the future. The Buddha teaches that the way to overcome the hindrance of regret is to abstain from unwholesome moral behaviors that engender regret. That dovetails quite nicely with the above.

Then sit down in a quiet cell, in a corner by yourself, and do what I tell you. Close the door, and withdraw your intellect from everything worthless and transient. Rest your beard on your chest, and focus your gaze, together with the whole of your intellect, upon the centre of your belly or your navel. Restrain the drawing in of breath through your nostrils, so as not to breathe easily, and search inside yourself with your intellect so as to find the place of the heart, where all the powers of the soul reside. To start with, you will find there darkness and as impenetrable density. Later, when you persist and practice this task day and night, you will find, as though miraculously, an unceasing joy. For as soon as the intellect attains the place of the heart it beholds itself entirely luminous and full of discrimination. From then on, from whatever side a distractive thought may appear, before it has come to completion and assumed a form, the intellect immediately drives it away and destroys it with the invocation of Jesus Christ...The rest you will learn for yourself, with God’s help, by keeping guarding over your intellect and by retaining Jesus in your heart. As the saying goes, “Sit in your cell and it will teach you everything.”..."

- Saint Symeon the New Theologian (949–1022 AD), Philokalia IV, pp72-73

​

In response to that, I share this:

The Blessed One said: "When a monk is intent on the heightened mind, there are five themes he should attend to at the appropriate times. Which five?

"There is the case where evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme. He should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it. Just as a skilled carpenter or his apprentice would use a small peg to knock out, drive out, and pull out a large one; in the same way, if evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — arise in a monk while he is referring to and attending to a particular theme, he should attend to another theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful. When he is attending to this other theme, apart from that one, connected with what is skillful, then those evil, unskillful thoughts — imbued with desire, aversion, or delusion — are abandoned and subside. With their abandoning, he steadies his mind right within, settles it, unifies it, and concentrates it.

Taken from the Vitakkasanthana Sutta, in the Majjhima Nikaya. Here is a link to the discourse, if you want to read the other four methods the Buddha adds. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.020.than.html

I could be wrong but this strikes me as not all that dissimilar from the Buddhist meditation method of Anapanasati or "mindfulness of breathing."

This is can simply be a practice of focusing upon the breathing or lead eventually to the so-called "Jesus Prayer", in which the practitioner repeats the name of Jesus or the phrase, "Jesus Christ, Son of God have mercy on me a sinner" over and over again, usually while focusing upon the breath.

Here is a link to the Anapanasati Sutta, in case you have never read the full discourse: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

This is not the only discourse that deals with the subject of mindfulness of breathing.

 

[jaybird]

Jesus might have very well been a Bodhisattva. The story of the Magi from the east looking for a reborn "king" sounds similar to how the lamas go out and look for the youngsters who are reincarnations of deceased lamas.

ohh wow! i cant believe i never saw that. yes your exactly right. i have also read from other traditions that the wise men were 4 holy men from the 4 directions representing the different belief systems.

 

[jaybird]

It'd be great if you posted this outside DIR so people could actually debate on this. (If of course such topic already didn't exist)

sorry im still kinda new here. whats "dir" and what exactly did i do wrong? topics posted here can not be discussed/debated? isnt majority of everything on msg boards debated? or am i crazy.

 

[Raahim]

sorry im still kinda new here. whats "dir" and what exactly did i do wrong? topics posted here can not be discussed/debated? isnt majority of everything on msg boards debated? or am i crazy.

DIR is explained in the rules. But yes, DIR are debate-free sections.

 

[jaybird]

DIR is explained in the rules. But yes, DIR are debate-free sections.

when i saw the "discuss individual religions" i assumed debates were considered discussing. so all the forums marked "dir" you can not disagree with others?

so can someone move the thread to proper place. i didnt see a Buddhist "debating allowed" forum