Buddhism after death

[Osal]

My understanding is that the practice does not address what happens after death since it doesn't have any relevance to achieving lasting peace of mind in the present moment.

In regards to death itself that is covered by the teaching that we all get old, we all get sick and we all die and that ultimately we need to let go of attachment to our youth, health and in the end our life though obviously we should make reasonable effort to look after ourselves as well. Personally I'm content to accept that there is nothing after I die but others have their own beliefs and they have to work out how to reconcile those with Buddhism if this is the practice they choose to follow.

Quite right.

I found it pretty easy to reconcile. Our so-called life is a series of moments. I didn't survive the previous moment. A new me arose with the preent moment and will end when this moment does. A moment from now, there will be a new me. Somewhere down the line of moments my body will die, the skandhas will dissolve and once again there will be no me. The moment will end.

In the previous moment, I really had no idea what the following moment would be. Just like now. I have no idea what the next mement will bring. I really don't know, for sure, that another moment will arise. It always happens that there's another moment. It doesn't seem to matter what happened previously.

It's completely out of my hands. Maybe it's fate. Maybe it's Karma.

Whatever it is, based on a number of momentary lifetimes, I suspect, there will be other moments after this body dies.

 

[rocala]

Musty thank you for your reply. Your opening line does seem to be the general position as I have perceived it. At a personal level it is difficult for my nature to reconcile not knowing with peace of mind. This may well be an issue that practice rather than theory will best remedy?

So far sources of confusion have been many: A poem by Tich Nhat Hanh, ' The Fruit of Awareness is Ripe', makes a reference to the soul? A Tibetan monk being interviewed by a vicar on TV talks of serving god? to name but two examples. Where does the Bardo state tie in with when you are dead that's it. More vaguely some things just make me feel uneasy. One example is from the web where rebirth was referred to as "passing on a few habits". Try as I might I cannot happily see that as an example of the "Middle Way" however loosely the term is used. It feels like 95% nihilism.

The internet has lots of material on NDE's, children's previous life memories and past life regression events. Some of it posted by Buddhists.

To sum up I am at a stage of my study/practice where I often get a feeling that a part of the jigsaw is missing. Still it is early days yet.

 

[ratikala]

Since I began studying Buddhism I have frequently struggled with the ideas and opinions re death, that I have found both in books and the internet. This has been made more complicated by contradictions and different schools of thought.

I found this article Buddhism and the No-soul Doctrine (v4) | BRISBANE GOODWILL unit of service. to be very interesting but if anything it has added to my confusion.

All ideas welcome.

prehaps you would like to read the Bardo Thodol , .....(commonly translated as the Tibetan book of the dead ) but more correctly understood to be ''Liberation Through Hearing During the Intermediate State (the Bardo) ,

it details the process in which the consciousness leves the body and how it comes either to be Reborn or gains Liberation , ....it is a difficult book to read but it may give some valuable insights pleas be sure to read one directly translated from Tibetan by a well respected Rinpoche , ....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Rocala ji

sorry I did not read your reply before posting , ...it seems you are aware of the Bardo Thodol

So far sources of confusion have been many: A poem by Tich Nhat Hanh, ' The Fruit of Awareness is Ripe', makes a reference to the soul? A Tibetan monk being interviewed by a vicar on TV talks of serving god? to name but two examples. Where does the Bardo state tie in with when you are dead that's it.

it dosent .....when the body dies that is the Gross body , the subtle body remains , subtle body could be likened to soul , ...mental continium , it is this consciousness which carries imptints and will be either re born or gain liberation , ....

More vaguely some things just make me feel uneasy. One example is from the web where rebirth was referred to as "passing on a few habits". Try as I might I cannot happily see that as an example of the "Middle Way" however loosely the term is used. It feels like 95% nihilism.

there are many levels of realisation even within Buddhism it self , ....thus there is much confusion and a lot of negating of some issues , .....

The internet has lots of material on NDE's, children's previous life memories and past life regression events. Some of it posted by Buddhists.

have you read about the system of reincarnating lamas , for instance both Dalai Lama and Panchen Lama having strong conections with eachother through numerous births will identify the next Tulcu (incarnation) , pleas read this you will find it facinating , ....

To sum up I am at a stage of my study/practice where I often get a feeling that a part of the jigsaw is missing. Still it is early days yet.

what would you say was the most meaningfull and influencial discourses you have read to date ? which tradition do you feel most comfortable with ? and what do you feel is missing ?

 

[ratikala]

namascaam Musty ji

My understanding is that the practice does not address what happens after death since it doesn't have any relevance to achieving lasting peace of mind in the present moment.

if one is only concerned with obtaining ''peace of mind in the present moment '' , ...one is practicing the preliminaries ,

once one has attained peace of mind and mental stability then awakening can begin , this is a long process , ...


it can and often does take many , many lives , ...

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Osal ji

Well said, but why do you insist on quoting the Gita in a language many of us don't understand? It would be like quoting Milarepa in Tibetan.

please be patient and follow this one through , even hearing sanskrit is benificial and leaves positive imprints , ....

I'd think that simply quoting in English alone for this crew is enough.

again please be patient and forgiving sometimes it is natural to use sanskrit especialy for Indians as it embodies terms not easily described in english , my sanskrit is not good but we live to learn ...and it is the most beautifull and profound of languages , .....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Aupmanyav ji

You consider Hinduism and Buddhism to be separate, I don't. For us Buddha was only the next avatara of Krishna. Please note I posted only one line from Gita.

do not worry , your gita quote is a universal principle which exists equaly in Buddhism , ...

 

[Musty]

Musty thank you for your reply. Your opening line does seem to be the general position as I have perceived it. At a personal level it is difficult for my nature to reconcile not knowing with peace of mind. This may well be an issue that practice rather than theory will best remedy?

So far sources of confusion have been many: A poem by Tich Nhat Hanh, ' The Fruit of Awareness is Ripe', makes a reference to the soul? A Tibetan monk being interviewed by a vicar on TV talks of serving god? to name but two examples. Where does the Bardo state tie in with when you are dead that's it. More vaguely some things just make me feel uneasy. One example is from the web where rebirth was referred to as "passing on a few habits". Try as I might I cannot happily see that as an example of the "Middle Way" however loosely the term is used. It feels like 95% nihilism.

The internet has lots of material on NDE's, children's previous life memories and past life regression events. Some of it posted by Buddhists.

To sum up I am at a stage of my study/practice where I often get a feeling that a part of the jigsaw is missing. Still it is early days yet.

I'm fairly new to Buddhism and when I first started to make a concerted effort to practice it I was very confused. Different websites gave markedly different and even contradictory guidance and instruction on how to practice that really undermined my sense of progress. I bought one of Tich Nhat Hanh's book which helped a little but I couldn't really get into it and I listened to the Secular Buddhist podcast which was interesting but didn't really help me with developing an actual practice. I was meditating because I thought that was what I was supposed to but didn't really understand the purpose behind it.

By sheer chance I came across Josh Korda's Dhammapunx podcast and everything fell into place. Josh is of the Theravada tradition which as I understand is focused on the original teachings of the Buddha and the Dhammapada. Since I've bee listening to the podcast my understanding of the practice progressed more in a few weeks than it had in months. Josh is great at communicating the tools which the Buddha taught to achieve lasting happiness and does so in a way that is directly relevant to the real world we live in. Josh also hasn't had the easiest life and has worked with many people who have also experienced real difficulties so when it comes to having real practice experience of applying the Buddha's teaching he's a good person to listen too. He may be that missing piece of the jigsaw, he certainly was for me.

In regards to issues of the soul, reincarnation, past life memories and suchlike,when the Buddhist was asked questions about the nature of existence he often refused to answer. When his aide asked him why he wouldn't answer the Buddha responded that these questions weren't relevant to his teachings on how to achieve lasting peace of mind and where themselves an avoidable source of Dukkha. I'm often bemused when I visit Buddhist forums and see how many of the posts are asking questions are the nature of the universe and existance despite the Buddha advising against spending time on these kind of thoughts. I guess people just get attached to these concepts when growing up and have difficulty letting them go.

 

[Musty]

namascaam Musty ji



if one is only concerned with obtaining ''peace of mind in the present moment '' , ...one is practicing the preliminaries ,

once one has attained peace of mind and mental stability then awakening can begin , this is a long process , ...


it can and often does take many , many lives , ...

I have no issue with people viewing the practice within the context of having many lives in which to achieve enlightenment (If this is what you're getting at, I'm no entirely sure). Personally my practice is focused on achieving peace of mind in the present moment within the life I'm living now, and I am content with whatever peace of mind I have achieved when I eventually die.

 

[Osal]

namaskaram Osal ji
please be patient and follow this one through , even hearing sanskrit is benificial and leaves positive imprints , ....

So sanskrit has some magical quality to impart understanding that more mundane languages don't?

again please be patient and forgiving sometimes it is natural to use sanskrit especialy for Indians as it embodies terms not easily described in english , my sanskrit is not good but we live to learn ...and it is the most beautifull and profound of languages , .....

Beauty is in the eye ....... and utility lies in meaning. If the listener/reader doesn't doesn't understand, then it's gibberish. If you have to translate to impart understanding, it's better to skip the source and leave the translation.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have no issue with people viewing the practice within the context of having many lives in which to achieve enlightenment (If this is what you're getting at, I'm no entirely sure). Personally my practice is focused on achieving peace of mind in the present moment within the life I'm living now, and I am content with whatever peace of mind I have achieved when I eventually die.

Very good post. Well put.

It certainly serves the extent by which Buddhism is practiced. I don't really care about playing church nowhere near as much as I used to, especially as It applies to a practice involving engauged Buddhism.

I dream and think all the time, like wondering past lives and rebirth and such as to what conceivably happens in the hereafter. Yet in spite of my speculations and personal convictions, I'll leave it out of experiential Buddhism in it's ideological context.

There's simply no place for that type of baggage really as it's never advisable to approach metaphysical and speculative idioms in way that requires embellishment and/or fabrications, or even the need to entertain such outright when direct reality as It is remains indifferent on such matters, for no other reason than directness, not ideologies consequently provides enough clarity for which leads to that "proper" understanding. Its very hard to face that type of truth at times with an ideological mind.

Death and suffering as a result loses much of it's ideological definitions because it's experienced via insight thus providing an easier transition throughout one's lifetime by the simple act of keeping body and mind focused on the continual nondefined "moment".

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you have to translate to impart understanding, it's better to skip the source and leave the translation.

Do you realize that it will leave no Buddhism for you? What to talk of Buddhism, it will not leave even Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any paganism for you. Nothing without the sources and translations. Just 'sunyata'.

 

[SomeRandom]

So sanskrit has some magical quality to impart understanding that more mundane languages don't?

No it's that translations are really tricky and can't always be exact, due to the differing natures of different languages. For example there's not an actual English word equivalent for the word "Dharma" would we then have to refrain from using such a term on a forum of Dharmic religions for the sole benefit of us Native English speakers? If so why or if not, then why not?
Also a person's first language will often be used without even thinking. Even in text form. And to many Hindus Sanskrit is considered a Holy Language, so I don't know if one should be surprised if it comes up in conversation with a Hindu.
But I think Uncle Aup merely copied and pasted a quote. Nothing more. First in Sanskrit (Hindi?) And then an English translation for those not familiar with the language.
Not everyone on this forum has spectacular English skills and may be more comfortable reading in Sanskrit (Hindi?)
Can you please explain to me why this is a perceived slight or problem?

Beauty is in the eye ....... and utility lies in meaning. If the listener/reader doesn't doesn't understand, then it's gibberish. If you have to translate to impart understanding, it's better to skip the source and leave the translation.

If that's the case everyone, regardless of their native language, would have to learn Ancient Aramaic/Hebrew just to read the Bible. Or learn about Islam only by first learning Arabic. Or if they are a literature student, they'd have to first learn Ancient Greek in order to read Homer or classical Italian (Latin?) to read Dante.

When translating something, it's not enough merely to recite what it means in a different language, there are colloquialisms, differing contexts, different sentence structures and often a different frame of understanding one must take into consideration as well.

Hell we have to translate even Shakespeare for a modern English speaking audience and he wrote in Early Modern English for Christ's sake. Even a more recent playwright such as Oscar Wilde needs a bit more context for a modern English speaking audience to truly understand and his English usage actually is modern English.
If we leave the source and skip the translation because we need translation to impart understanding, us Native English speakers would have nothing spiritual, intellectual or any artistry to enjoy and appreciate. Because most if not all of it needs added context and/or translation in the first place for our benefit, even if it's in the same language we use.

 

[ratikala]

Nanaskaram Osal ji

So sanskrit has some magical quality to impart understanding that more mundane languages don't?

in short YES ! .......

Beauty is in the eye ....... and utility lies in meaning. If the listener/reader doesn't doesn't understand, then it's gibberish.

if it is just a question of beauty , .....and a case of utility ?

why is Tibetan Buddhist mantra in sanskrit ?

why is it used in all Sadhana , .....

Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hum, .....

If you have to translate to impart understanding, it's better to skip the source and leave the translation.

so are we supposed to drop the bija (seed syllable) and sit chanting ,,,,adamantine master lotus born please bestow atainments upon us ....... ?

some how translation is just not sufficient , ....or have the meditative resonance , .....

and there is no translation for the primordial sound of the universe !

 

[Osal]

Do you realize that it will leave no Buddhism for you? What to talk of Buddhism, it will not leave even Judaism, Christianity, Islam or any paganism for you. Nothing without the sources and translations. Just 'sunyata'.

"Nothing" != "Emptiness"

I'm not sure how greater economy on your postings would leave "nothing" and we don't need the source. We can trust you to give us the straight poop, and I'm sure we all do. Hell, I don't know the language, so I couldn't check up on you any way. I do happen to know a guy who can translate both sanskrit and pali, but I'm not going to bother his with something like this. Just not that impportant.

 

[Osal]

so are we supposed to drop the bija (seed syllable) and sit chanting ,,,,adamantine master lotus born please bestow atainments upon us ....... ?

Sure. Why not?

 

[Osal]

Hell we have to translate even Shakespeare for a modern English speaking audience and he wrote in Early Modern English for Christ's sake.

No, for the audience's sake ;-).

But if The Bard wrote in Middle English we don't quote the oginal and then translate while the play is acted out.

Thaat would be stupid.

 

[rocala]

Musty - once again thank you. I had never heard of Josh Korda. I have now had a quick look and will go further with this.

Ref your final paragraph, this part of the Buddha's teaching was one of the first things that I came across. However the subject keeps coming up, so my curiosity follows.
I do not disregard the Buddhas teaching here and I am sure that it is correct. But not everybody is fully on the path and until they get there I think it is foolhardy not to fully investigate all aspects.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Osal ji

"Nothing" != "Emptiness"

I'm not sure how greater economy on your postings would leave "nothing" and we don't need the source. We can trust you to give us the straight poop, and I'm sure we all do. Hell, I don't know the language, so I couldn't check up on you any way. I do happen to know a guy who can translate both sanskrit and pali, but I'm not going to bother his with something like this. Just not that impportant.

prehaps it might be usefull to use an online sanskrit dictionary that will give you a good Idea of the meaning instead of having to consult a freind , ....here is one you may find both usefull and instructive , ....

Sanskrit Dictionary for Spoken Sanskrit

However the question of translations asside , ....
I assume you know the meaning of the name Osal , ...?

it is the most beautifull name , ...''Radient light'' the true nature of mind , ....

how ever one with such an auspicious name should not speak so coarsly or dissrespectfully to another , ....

and as for ...''I am sure we all do '' please do not speak for others as there are many here who respect Aupmanyav ji ,

 

[Osal]

please do not speak for others as there are many here who respect Aupmanyav ji ,

But you speak for him, don't you?

Respect does not mean I can't question someone's reasoning. I asked Aupmanyav a direct question as to why he posts the way he does and it seems everyone but him has tried to offer a direct question.

Hard to respect that.