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Buddhism and God: What's the problem?

Tathagata

Freethinker
I think belief in God, existed in early buddhism.

WHY do you think that? Is there any evidence of this or are you just making that up cause it sounds nice?

But later buddhism became distorted, and then this belief was no longer a part of the buddhist belief system.

The earliest and most ancient texts of Buddhism explicitly reject God-belief. See Culla Vagga 6:2.

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Straw Dog

Well-Known Member
I'd like to know people's thoughts on why the Buddha taught that belief in God is a hindrance to enlightenment.

I'm assuming that it is because belief in God normally goes hand-in-hand with belief in an immortal soul, and that is why the Buddha would have suggested it is a detrimental belief.
I can't see any other problems with holding a belief in God myself.

I think the Buddha was more anti-speculative rather than outright atheistic. He would rather not waste time hypothesizing about excessively abstract concepts like 'deity' and 'soul' but instead focus on direct experience of concrete reality. I don't see anything specifically contradictory about believing in certain concepts of deity while being a Buddhist given its inclusive history, but it isn't essential to the practice.
 

koan

Active Member
Buddhism doesn't believe in a "God Creator." Buddhism believes Gods/Deity's are just another form and to escape the wheel, they must become human again.
 

Sridharma

New Member
God as a word/concept is ambiguous, it can mean something personal, unique and different to each individual. Some God views could be considered valid by Buddhism, though the typical one isn't.

Deconstructing the typical God belief:

These 4 qualities are often assigned to God by theistic belief system's:
(1) Omnipotence, no other being or god can match the 1 God's power because the 1 God is absolutely omnipotent and thus above and beyond all other beings and the world.
(2) The creator of all things that was before all things.
(3) Personhood or some form of individual conscious being that is distinct and disconnected from everything else or simultanesouly one with everything while still distinct as an individual.
(4) This being is eternal.

According to the Buddha belief in or holding any of the above 4 God views is not required (not even beneficial, in fact harmful) in order to lead the holy life, namely: Practicing the Eightfold Path; cultivating moral/ethical behavior; training the mind to be clear, calm and concentrated; achieving total freedom from harmful qualities and the permanent end of suffering.
The Buddha totally focused on teaching only that which is beneficial to the practice of the holy life and that which is true.

Holding the belief in such a God, will very likely for many people, lead to conflict between individuals, the development of harmful sectarian organizations and finally wars.
Ultimately holding the 4 false 'God views' is in too many ways far too dangerous (surely countless discussions could be devoted to deconstructing and invalidating these 4 false views) and is in no way required in order to practice the holy life and achieve the ultimate final fruit of the holy life (Nirvana).
Even if Nirvana equates to the heaven of theistic religions and there is a God that holds all the above 4 qualities, belief in a supreme being is still not necessary to practice the holy life and achieve Nirvana.
I cannot imagine a scenario where an arahant, a supremely perfected being who has eliminated all impurities/"sin" and achieved the highest evolutionary potential of mind, would approach the gates of heaven and find God saying "well that's all good but since you didn't "believe" in me you can't come in". That to me is projecting a corruption of human ego onto God.
Psychological Projection is a universal and harmful phenomena of humans. When there is a God belief all manner of imagination and ego traits are projected there on.

It is said the Buddha did not hold any beliefs/views. He was in total awareness of truth/reality, as it is, through his own direct experience/cognition. He looked and found there is no God that holds those 4 common theistic qualities. Seeing that there is no God like that, aiming to teach what is true and beneficial and seeing the dangers in those views, he taught accordingly.
Belief by my understanding means a view or concept that is held but where one does not have a direct experience, a direct insight of truth/reality. Only Belief's that are beneficial to cultivating the holy life should be held. For one who's vision of reality is purified and all harmful qualities permanently eradicated, belief has ended.

The unity and harmony of all things. A deep abiding peace and calm. Sublime love for all beings. Freedom from the disturbance of lust and anger. Unexplainable experiences that transcend time and space. Experiences so profound and deep that they change us for the better and show us a holy path. When people have these experiences they often say God in a many variety of ways. In these ways there is God in the Buddha Way. But no God that holds the 4 common theistic attributes.

There is no omnipotence and no being that is omnipotent.

There is no 1 being that is the creator of all that was before all. The universe has no beginning so no first creation. (If it can be said there is a being who is the creator, that being is all beings, we are all God and creation/destruction is a cycle with no beginning and no end.)

There is no being (nothing at all in fact) that stands independently outside of and disconnected from everything else. This is an 'atta'(self) misconception. (Some say there is neither oneness nor difference, others say there is both oneness and difference, but in any case that oneness/difference or neither oneness/difference is not omnipotence nor ultimate creator)

Impermanance is a fundamental characteristic of the universe. Projecting impermanence on a God being is like an extension of omnipotence. This is an 'annica'(impermanence) misconception.
 
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wmjbyatt

Lunatic from birth
I would also suspect that a belief is, in general, a quality which can define oneself, and stripping oneself of definition is, from some perspectives, the/a path to enlightenment.
 

ratikala

Istha gosthi
sorry lost yesterdays post will try to re capture it again....

in reply to the original question as to wether or not buddha acknowledged the existance of god ?

odin quotes' the kulayalaraja tantra' "I am the core of all that exists"............"I am the root because I am every thing".

Compare that with krsna speaking in the Bhagavad Gita ch,10 v,8 "I am the source of all spiritual and material worlds . Everything eminates from me . The wise who know this engage in my devotional service and worship me with all their hearts".

return now to the historical buddha sakyamuni , (great sage,born of the sakya clan),who was born into the vedic tradition , and upon whos birth it was prophetised that he would either become a great warrior king or that he would become a powerfull sage , and who at birth showed all the signs and marks of divine birth(those of visnu) was it then surprising that he took the path of an asthetic , motivated to find the cause of suffering ? having followed the asthetic path to no ultimate conclusion he branched out alone with the aim of enlightenment. from the buddhist perspective this signifies the turning point where he rejects the vedas and teaches the first truely buddhist doctorine , the hinayana teachings concern themselves mostly with the continuance of the original teachings and the attainment of enlightenment and concern themselves little with his vedic origins. the mahayana however combine a reverence for the teachings with equal reverence for the buddhas divine origins.
from the vedic perspective lord buddha arived to break the power held by the corrupt bramin preists and to bring about a return to moral religious principals.
Ultimately each view is correct , therefore it is wrong of us to berate one another for holding wrong views ! no enlightenment is possible whilst we hold fixed oppinions.
bare in mind that we are of limited understanding and that we should remain open minded and not think that we understand buddhas teachings untill they fully reveal them selves to us .

bhagavad gita ch,10 v,3" he who knows me as the unborn , as the beginingless , as the supreme lord of all worlds ", ........the supreme lord of the gita ... or the adi buddha ...one and the same realisation.

Lord Buddha ki jai, ratikala
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Good post ratikala

Ultimately each view is correct , therefore it is wrong of us to berate one another for holding wrong views ! no enlightenment is possible whilst we hold fixed opinions

This line is specifically is key. All views are ultimately of the mind, constructed through word based thoughts and so subject to duality. It is not the rejection or acceptance of God, but breaking through the barrier which produces the dilemma in the first place.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Onkara,

but breaking through the barrier which produces the dilemma in the first place.

Allowing the barriers to drop/fall may be a better expression rather than breaking; is a personal understanding. Revelations happen on its own thereafter.

Love & rgds
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Friend Onkara,



Allowing the barriers to drop/fall may be a better expression rather than breaking; is a personal understanding. Revelations happen on its own thereafter.

Love & rgds

Yes, you are right. The issue goes down to who the "doer" is, as if there is someone breaking barriers then it is still the body-mind which considers itself the doer and is likely to be considered as in control. :)
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
This line is specifically is key. All views are ultimately of the mind, constructed through word based thoughts and so subject to duality. It is not the rejection or acceptance of God, but breaking through the barrier which produces the dilemma in the first place.

Other that the dropping vs. breaking, which ever you prefer.
I'm going to say this post here is me quoting for Truth. :)
 
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