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Burden of Proof is on Atheists

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Some context for your information

Sheldon: there is no evidence for God just claims and assertions.

LEROY: what do you mean by evidence/ what would accept as evidence?

Leroy: (sarcastically) there is no evidence that stegosaurus ever existed all we have are claims and assertions.

Sheldon: no I wont explain what I mean by evidence (+some exuseses here and there)

Then you jumped to this conversation...

Then you provided a source that explains the concept of evidence

Then I pointed out that according to your source the concept of evidence is not universal (people mean different things according to the context)

Which shows that my original request is valid, asking what do you mean by evidence is a valid requirement.

Then you falsely accused me for straws and redherrings

My theory is that you jumped to this conversation without understanding the context (which is ok forums tebd to be chaotic)


So with this context in mind , do you have anything to comment on?
I see. You are made because he was right. It does not matter what standard that one uses, there does not appear to be any reliable evidence for God. Considering how important it would be to know God, if the claims of any religion are true, then his failure to properly demonstrate that he even exists is a huge failure on his part.

You failed because you chose something that we do have evidence for. Stegosaurus fossils are fairly common. If you have a grand or so you can even buy one of their back plates. There are museums that have the actual fossils on display, but most will have them tucked away somewhere. You can see all sorts of fossils yourself in the field so choosing the stegosaur adds another failure to your argument. It was one of cherry picking.

You have to know when to fold them.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You may find it useful to know that, based on your track record here, there's nothing in you saying the sentence "there is no evidence that stegosaurus ever existed all we have are claims and assertions" that would suggest it was meant sarcastically.

I mean it seriously / by atheists standards tere is no evidence that stegosaurus ever lived .....but please do not use the word "ever" that is rude and impolite (as @Subduction Zone claims)
If you meant it sincerely, it would be far from the wildest thing you've said here.
Care to quote a single "wild claim" made by me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I mean it seriously / by atheists standards tere is no evidence that stegosaurus ever lived .....but please do not use the word "ever" that is rude and impolite (as @Subduction Zone claims)

Care to quote a single "wild claim" made by me.
Wow! After I just explained to you how that is wrong you continue with our false claims.

What is your religion again?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I see. You are made because he was right. It does not matter what standard that one uses, there does not appear to be any reliable evidence for God.

Hard to say, given that I have no idea on what you mean by evidence nor what would count as evidence.


Considering how important it would be to know God, if the claims of any religion are true, then his failure to properly demonstrate that he even exists is a huge failure on his part.
That is like saying that your inability to demonstrate to a YEC that evolution is true is a failure from the evolutionists part .

You failed because you chose something that we do have evidence for. Stegosaurus fossils are fairly common. If you have a grand or so you can even buy one of their back plates. There are museums that have the actual fossils on display, but most will have them tucked away somewhere. You can see all sorts of fossils yourself in the field so choosing the stegosaur adds another failure to your argument. It was one of cherry picking.

You have to know when to fold them.
And how do you know that the fossils are authentic ? .......
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I mean it seriously / by atheists standards tere is no evidence that stegosaurus ever lived .....but please do not use the word "ever" that is rude and impolite (as @Subduction Zone claims)
:facepalm:

Saying that you meant it seriously doesn't help communicate that you meant it sarcastically.

Care to quote a single "wild claim" made by me.
I'm not bringing this up as something to debate. You can either choose to reflect on the impression you create or not. If you decide to disregard what I'm saying and continue to come across as a frank, well... you do you.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
:facepalm:

Saying that you meant it seriously doesn't help communicate that you meant it sarcastically.


I'm not bringing this up as something to debate. You can either choose to reflect on the impression you create or not. If you decide to disregard what I'm saying and continue to come across as a frank, well... you do you.
I honestly think that i haven't made any wild claims in this forum. The problem is than any claim that contradict your atheism counts as "wild"
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I honestly think that i haven't made any wild claims in this forum.
The fact that you think this is why people keep responding to you like you're a crank.

The problem is than any claim that contradictions your atheism counts as "wild"
No, that's not the problem.

But like I was getting at earlier: if you don't want to reflect on how you come across, nobody's forcing you.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Is it your position that they aren't?
No, my possition is that according to atheists standards, there isno evidence that the fossils are authentic. Because all we have is claims and testimony from people who claim to have found and studied the fossils.

But I was told by atheists that claims and testimonies are not evidence


Obviously rational people know that testimonials are evidence and that there are even methods to determine how "strong" is that testimony.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
No, my possition is that according to atheists standards, there isno evidence that the fossils are authentic.
FFS. Talking to you is like talking to a chatbot: it seems like you can only latch onto one thing in the post and can't appreciate the larger context.

I brought up the fact that stegosauruses are extinct only as one example of a conclusion that people accept as uncontroversially true based on a lack of evidence.

If you really do have issues with the idea that stegosauruses are extinct (or, for reasons that escape me, the idea that they ever existed at all o_O), you go right ahead and think about all the conclusions you make that are based on a lack of evidence and pick one that works for you. It's irrelevant to my point what conclusion you pick:

- passenger pigeons are exinct
- Amelia Earheart is dead
- there are exactly ___ eggs in your refrigerator (and no extras that you don't know about)
- Jesus's tomb was empty

... or something else. Go nuts.

Or, if you actually do accept that stegosauruses existed and and now extinct, we can go with that.

Either way, this ridiculous tangent is irrelevant to everything except demonstrating to everyone that you don't have the first clue about "atheist standards" if you think your arguments are a fair representation of them.

Personally, I take these sorts of rants from you as your way of saying "I don't have the intellectual tools to respond to rebuttals to my arguments, so I just need to vent my frustration in the only way I know how."
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Personally, I take these sorts of rants from you as your way of saying "I don't have the intellectual tools to respond to rebuttals to my arguments, so I just need to vent my frustration in the only way I know how."
Actually, it looks to me like it's your knee that's jerking, here, not @leroy.

Leroy points out that he is skeptical about the claims of scientists, and suddenly, you, the big ole rational "super-skeptic", flies into a litany of insults. How dare he not accept the scientific fountain of all truth and reality at it's word! How dare he claim that the sacrosanct scientific method might be biased, processed, group-think! OUTRAGEOUS! :)
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
FFS. Talking to you is like talking to a chatbot: it seems like you can only latch onto one thing in the post and can't appreciate the larger context.

I brought up the fact that stegosauruses are extinct only as one example of a conclusion that people accept as uncontroversially true based on a lack of evidence.

And I explained that your analogy is false.

Yes given a lack of evidence for God you are justified to not believe in God (as you do with stegosaurus)

But once evidence is presented you are expected to refute such evidence.

Conversations with atheists look like this:

1 atheists: there is no evidence for stegosauruses living today

2 theist well how about these fresh stegosaurus bones,

3 atheist : no that is not evidence

4 theist , why not?

5 atheist: its a stegosaurus of the gaps argument, just because we don't know where the bones came from nor why the look fresh and recent, that doest mean that stegosaurus did it.

6 atheist: maybe there is an unknown mechanism that produces de appearance of "recent bones" in bones that are millions of years old

7 atheists: the answer is I dont know but you don’t know ether. You cant postulate the existence of an unevidenced recent stegosaurus just because you cant find an explanation for those bones.

8 theist, ok so what would count as evidence

9 atheist, well present your evidence and lets see.

10 theist: i just did (fresh bones)

11 atheists, no no that is not evidence, just claims .

12 theist ok what would count as evidence , whats wrong with the bones, what alternative explanation do you suggest?

13 atheist: no, no i am not your private teacher, go learn it yourself.

.... just change stegosauruses for God, and change fresh bones for say the FT of the universe. And you will have a typical



Personally, I take these sorts of rants from you as your way of saying "I don't have the intellectual tools to respond to rebuttals to my arguments, so I just need to vent my frustration in the only way I know how."

The issue is that usually we dont have rebuttals for the arguments.

Are you familiar with the FT argument (as defended by william lane creig) ?

What would be your rebuttal for that particular argument?

Is premise 1 false? Is premise 2 false, is any of the premises fallacious, does the conclusion fail to follow from the premises., do you have a positive argument for atheism/naturalism that trumps any argument for design?......these are all possible refutations which do you pick?
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Hard to say, given that I have no idea on what you mean by evidence nor what would count as evidence.

You have to be kidding me. You acted as if you understood the very clear definition that I gave to you. But I am willing do discuss it.

That is like saying that your inability to demonstrate to a YEC that evolution is true is a failure from the evolutionists part .

No, not at all. We can test YEC claims and demonstrate that they are wrong. Your version of God plays hide and seek and there is no evidence for him. He is so nebulously defined that there is no evidence against him, unless you require YEC as part of his existence and then he has been refuted.

And how do you know that the fossils are authentic ? .......

Because a person can go and confirm the claims. The more "proof" that one wants the more work that person will have to do. But you can go to some museums and see them for yourself. You can buy individual bones on the internet. You can take the classes so that you can tell the difference between man made and fake. No one is stopping anyone from learning these things. The problem with God claims is that there is no confirming them that I know of.

If you are going to compare whether evolution happened or not and whether your God is real or not based upon evidence evolution wins every time since there is endless evidence for evolution and does not appear to be any reliable evidence for a God.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You have to be kidding me. You acted as if you understood the very clear definition that I gave to you. But I am willing do discuss it.



No, not at all. We can test YEC claims and demonstrate that they are wrong. Your version of God plays hide and seek and there is no evidence for him. He is so nebulously defined that there is no evidence against him, unless you require YEC as part of his existence and then he has been refuted.



Because a person can go and confirm the claims. The more "proof" that one wants the more work that person will have to do. But you can go to some museums and see them for yourself. You can buy individual bones on the internet. You can take the classes so that you can tell the difference between man made and fake. No one is stopping anyone from learning these things. The problem with God claims is that there is no confirming them that I know of.

If you are going to compare whether evolution happened or not and whether your God is real or not based upon evidence evolution wins every time since there is endless evidence for evolution and does not appear to be any reliable evidence for a God.
What us the point of quoting my questions if you will not answer them?


How do YOU know that the fossils are authentic?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And they aren't.

Fossils aren't testimonies and claims. They are artifacts that can be, and have been, independently studied.
ie, objective evidence.

How do you know that? How do you know that any fossils have been studied, ?

All you have is the testimonials of people who claim to have studied the fossisl. .......bust claims and testimonials are not evidence (or are they?)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What us the point of quoting my questions if you will not answer them?


How do YOU know that the fossils are authentic?
Because I have studied them. Not stegosaurus fossils, but that would just be an example of cherry picking by you. When a scientist writes a paper for peer review he has to go far deeper than just saying "Ah found some bones!!: A scientist has to go into details of exactly where they were found and recovery. He has to explain how he identified them. The list goes on and on.. And the fossils may be locked away from the hands of mischievous children and others that could possibly do them harm, they are still accessible by other experts in the field. By your poor logic there is no evidence for Boeing 747's.

And your questions have almost always been answered. Not getting the answers that you want does not mean that your questions were not answered.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How do you know that? How do you know that any fossils have been studied, ?

All you have is the testimonials of people who claim to have studied the fossisl. .......bust claims and testimonials are not evidence (or are they?)
There you go. Back with a rude attitude again. You are acting like a five year old. You have to know better.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Because I have studied them. Not stegosaurus fossils, but that would just be an example of cherry picking by you. When a scientist writes a paper for peer review he has to go far deeper than just saying "Ah found some bones!!: A scientist has to go into details of exactly where they were found and recovery. He has to explain how he identified them. The list goes on and on.. And the fossils may be locked away from the hands of mischievous children and others that could possibly do them harm, they are still accessible by other experts in the field. By your poor logic there is no evidence for Boeing 747's.

And your questions have almost always been answered. Not getting the answers that you want does not mean that your questions were not answered.
Ok so suddenly claims, testimonials , assertions etc. Became evidence.

That is what I said originally (atleast sometimes they count as evidence)

If a scientist is in a position to know if the fossils are authentic or not, and has no aparent reason to lie, we can trust his testimony / the problem is that i have been told endlessly in this forum that testimonials are not evidence

your poor logic there is no evidence for Boeing 747's. your poor logic there is no evidence for Boeing 747's.
Its not my logic, its the atheist logic
 
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