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Burden of Proof is on Atheists

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I told you the 6 facts that I made earlier are supported by the majority of scholars the empty tomb is supported by 70% and the other 5 by almost 100%
The question is why do those 70% accept the empty tomb story (and it is beginning to be rather clear that it is the empty tomb myth)? Most that accept it do not appear to do so based on sound historical reasons. It may be 70% right now. And I do have my strong doubts about even that. But if you asked the same question 50 years ago you would have had a much higher number. You have to remember that for a long long time if one disputed anything that the Church said about the Church version of the Jesus story that that was a death sentence in most European countries. It takes a long time to recover from that sort of tyranny.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
If you are only willing to accept sources outside the bible, then I can’t meet your dumb and ridiculous standards
So you admit that there are no sources that support a magical Jesus outside of the Bible.

Interesting that you consider requiring independent support for a claim "dumb and ridiculous" though. Good job you aren't a judge!
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yu are confusing mere possibility with likelihood.
The two words are synonymous.

If 2 testimonies report the same event but with different details and different focus such that they complement each other than the testimonies are likely to be independent . (regardless if you know the name of the author or not)
Why?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
I told you the 6 facts that I made earlier are supported by the majority of scholars the empty tomb is supported by 70% and the other 5 by almost 100%
I notice you replaced "historians" with "scholars". Nice work!

The reality is that amongst actual historians (who do not have an agenda of supporting biblical claims) a person called Jesus being crucified is the only agreed "historical fact".
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Okay, they are not independent. So that limits them to one or at the very most two sources. The point was that the four Gospels are not four independent sources. Are you following along?
Well for example the gospel of Luke is dependent on Mark, “Q” and “L” so if an event is reported in Mark and “L” then you do have 2 independent sources.

But I largely agree with your point , most of Luke and Matt are dependent on Mark

It´s incorrect to say something like “we have 3 independent sources for Jesus turning water in to wine” because it’s likely that luke and matt copied that story form mark
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I notice you replaced "historians" with "scholars". Nice work!

The reality is that amongst actual historians (who do not have an agenda of supporting biblical claims) a person called Jesus being crucified is the only agreed "historical fact".
Ok feel free to share your source
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Would you accept sources from within Harry Potter books to confirm that wizards are real, or would you look for confirmation outside of the Harry Potter book series for confirmation that wizards are real?
That is like saying that I won’t accept any Greek sources for the life of Alexander the Great
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Well for example the gospel of Luke is dependent on Mark, “Q” and “L” so if an event is reported in Mark and “L” then you do have 2 independent sources.

But I largely agree with your point , most of Luke and Matt are dependent on Mark

It´s incorrect to say something like “we have 3 independent sources for Jesus turning water in to wine” because it’s likely that luke and matt copied that story form mark
And Q and L are hypothetical at this point so they by definition cannot be listed as sources. We can just make statements like "this story was in both Luke and Matt, but not in Mark".
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you are only willing to accept sources outside the bible, then I can’t meet your dumb and ridiculous standards

His standard for belief (I presume) is a compelling argument that connects evidence and premises to sound conclusions. It's mine as well. The Bible is evidence of one thing only: that it was written. Nothing in it can be known to be correct without external corroboration, and even with that, scripture is still not part of why the idea is known to be correct if it is.

If you can't meet the standards of experienced critical thinkers, it's because your case isn't persuasive, not because their standards are too high.

This is a great enigma to believers - why won't the skeptics believe? Whatever argument they bring, it's never good enough. It seems that it never occurs to the apologist that the answer may be because the believer is incorrect. Obviously, if he holds a false belief, he will never be able to produce evidence that it is correct.

But the believer doesn't process information the way the skeptic does, which is why they have come to different conclusions despite having access to the same reality. I think that many believers are unaware of this. They are unaware of how tendentious their thinking is, something the experienced critical thinker has learned to disesteem to minimize in himself. He takes pride in the fact that he looks at the evidence first and derives sound conclusions by dispassionately applying valid reasoning. He sees two genealogies of Jesus or two creation myths and concludes that they contradict one another. They make mutually exclusive claims. Simple analysis.

But the apologist doesn't go from evidence to conclusion. He goes from faith-based premise to evidence in search of whatever he can find that he hopes supports his faith-based belief, while ignoring or rationalizing away that which contradicts him. He can only conclude one thing because no other conclusion is possible for him: there is no error there. There is no contradiction. And he'll jump through any number of contortionist hoops in support of that belief. The problem is that ideas reached in that manner - faith - will be incorrect unless one makes a lucky guess, and even then, he can't now that he did until evidence confirms that he did.

And so, he finds himself in the unenviable position of trying to defend indefensible and incorrect positions like creationism or resurrection or biblical inerrancy. Had he used the proper method, he would have arrived at sound conclusions supported by evidence, but he didn't, and now is left defending ideas insufficiently supported if not outright contradicted by the evidence. Isn't that your predicament? The evidence you offer is convincing nobody, and they are telling you why. But you don't see any of this that way. You are sure that your beliefs are correct and corroborated by what you offer as evidence for them, and are confused about why that doesn't convince others.

The answer lies in the fact that it didn't even convince you. You held that belief before looking for that evidence. If it didn't take you to belief, why would it take a skeptic to belief?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
And Q and L are hypothetical at this point so they by definition cannot be listed as sources. We can just make statements like "this story was in both Luke and Matt, but not in Mark".
Which would strongly suggest that there is a Source that Luke and Matt used, that Mark didnt.
But what is your point? None of my claims is dependent on the existence of Q
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Yu are confusing mere possibility with likelihood.

I think you broke the internet with that irony.

If 2 testimonies report the same event but with different details and different focus such that they complement each other than the testimonies are likely to be independent . (regardless if you know the name of the author or not)

You seem to determined to twist and thrash around with your subjective bias here, as if the meaning of independent is unknown to others posting here, or how historians and scholars subject sources to critical scrutiny.

You have no sources for your claims, that are independent of your religion and the bible. Four of the gospels you can't even guess who the source is, let alone they or it were independent, written in Greek and many decades after the alleged events, they constitute nothing more than second or third hand hearsay.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Sheldon said:
So what inference do you derive from the fact there is not a scholarly consensus among historians for the claims you made, beyond that there was probably an historical Jesus, and that he was crucified? Again this seems a fact you have been keen to ignore, and even misrepresent.
I told you the 6 facts that I made earlier are supported by the majority of scholars the empty tomb is supported by 70% and the other 5 by almost 100%

They're not, this has been explained to you innumerable times, you quoted a single author making a subjective claim, from a religious website. There is no scholarly consensus for those claims, only an historical Jesus and the crucifixion, and even those two events are not as you claimed "known to a high degree of certainty". The empty tomb claim is pure hearsay, and again this has been explained to you exhaustively. The 100% claim at the end of your post is hilarious, several posters have quoted world renown biblical scholars and historians stating unequivocally the dearth of evidence to corroborate those claims. Even the anonymous gospel myths don't agree on important details, despite 3 of them clearly plagiarising much of the fourth.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I told you the 6 facts that I made earlier are supported by the majority of scholars the empty tomb is supported by 70% and the other 5 by almost 100%

"Theologian Gary Habermas has for over fifteen years cataloged articles debating the empty tomb of Jesus and the resurrection. From the thousands he has collected, he concludes:
75% of scholars today say that resurrection or something like it occurred."

"However, a closer look (informed in large part by an excellent article by Richard Carrier) shows a very different conclusion.
This is not peer-reviewed scholarship Habermas admitted in 2012, “Most of this material is unpublished.” With his data secret, his conclusions are uncheckable. Carrier says that Habermas has denied repeated requests to review his data."

You have been told repeatedly that the stats you keep quoting as if they are fact, are not peer reviewed, they are the subjective and unverified opinion of a Christian author - see bias. Do you have the integrity to acknowledge this fact, or are you going to run with this continued falsehood?

The article goes on:

"Habermas cites the ever-growing list of articles in his database (3400 at last count), but what does the 75% refer to? Is it 75% of the database articles? If so, how does he deal with multiple articles from one author? Or is it 75% of authors? If so, are professors and street preachers weighed the same? If it’s 75% of scholars, are experts in the fields of theology and philosophy given equal weight with experts in history? What journals and other sources does he search?"

And on it goes:

"A Christian bias
What fraction of the pro-resurrection 75% are Christians? Not having the data, we don’t know, but I’ll guess 99%. I’ll grant that Christians are as smart as anyone else, but does their religion bias their conclusions?
Here’s why I ask: consider polling a group of Muslim scholars. They have no bias against the supernatural, and they understand the Jesus story. But ask them about the resurrection, and they will universally reject it.
The Christian might respond that Muslims are biased by their religious beliefs to dismiss the resurrection. That’s true, but then why are Christians, who are biased to accept the resurrection, allowed to weigh in on this issue?"

This is also very apropos:

"Habermas is happy to reject the conclusion of 99% of the experts who understand evolution (see his attitude toward evolution here, here, and here). Ditto for William Lane Craig. Neither is in a position to object to anyone rejecting the 75% conclusion about the resurrection."

Again one can only infer subjective bias from the author.

<CITATION>
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Well for example the gospel of Luke is dependent on Mark, “Q” and “L” so if an event is reported in Mark and “L” then you do have 2 independent sources.

But I largely agree with your point , most of Luke and Matt are dependent on Mark

It´s incorrect to say something like “we have 3 independent sources for Jesus turning water in to wine” because it’s likely that luke and matt copied that story form mark

Independent
adjective
  1. free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.
Try again.

"Source criticism is a set of skills that allows you to think carefully about the nature of historical sources. Rather than simply accepting what sources say, these skills help you to develop a healthy scepticism about the reasons a source was made and whether you can trust it.

There are two types of source criticism skills you can use: analysis skills and evaluation skills. In order to help you understand how each of these skills relate to each other, they are organised in a table below.


Analysis Information
What is the explicit meaning of the source? (Comprehension)

What is the implicit meaning of the source? (Interpretation)

How does this source corroborate the information from another source?

How does this source contradict the information from another source?

Origin
Who created the source?

What kind and type of source is it?

Perspective
From what point of view is the source created?

Context
When was the source created?
What historical events happened at this time that are important to the creation of this source?

Audience
Who was the intended audience of the source?

Motive
For what purpose was this source made?

Evaluation
Usefulness
How relevant is this source to the topic you are studying?

Reliability
How trustworthy is the source?"

<CITATION>
 
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Sheldon

Veteran Member
I notice you replaced "historians" with "scholars". Nice work!

The reality is that amongst actual historians (who do not have an agenda of supporting biblical claims) a person called Jesus being crucified is the only agreed "historical fact".
The work he is citing is just the subjective onion of a Christian author, and is not peer reviewed, and the author has refused repeatedly to submit his data for critical review, so the figure of 75% is meaningless, as no one knows what articles (approx 3400) he has reviewed, or if he lends equal credence to say an article on the empty tomb and resurrection by a street preacher, with an expert historian, just as one example, and he may have used multiple articles from a single source which of course would heavily bias the findings. It's a risible claim...

@leroy so far hasn't had the integrity to acknowledge this, quelle surprise.
 
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