Burden of proof

[Sheldon]

the Bible has been proven scientifically prescient

Hilarious, you were being ironic yes?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

Although Burden of Proof should be followed, I think.... sometimes it can be a bit over-followed too, to the point of dancing around the debate entirely.

 

[Bird123]

Although you may not realize it, you are technological. Prophet, look within and change yourself. The multiverse is calling to you via sub-atomic particles. Can you hear it?

This myth never ends. We must learn how to lead non-local lives in the face of illusion. Imagine an ennobling of what could be.

The stage is set but it isn't the stage that is calling. The multiverse is a thing. It is not sentient.

Eternity has purpose. Is life really about non-local? Where is the Math that you have chosen to ignore? You must move beyond what feels right to you or what you want to be true. The truth stares you in the face. Since it is not what you want, you choose to avoid it.

You have based everything upon the beliefs of others. Perhaps, it's time to be brave enough to venture into undiscovered country to Discover something for yourself.

Wisdom is gained in the struggle to acquire knowledge. It doesn't come to you. You go it it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[CG Didymus]

Christianity is true but I don't think I have a burden to prove that to anyone.

Someone has to try and show why it is true to try and get others to believe it. So, why is Christianity true? Then, which version of Christianity is true? Then, what about the other religions? Is Christianity the only one that is true? And what makes the others false?

Then we get into the Bible. Is it the inerrant, infallible word of God? Which interpretation of the Bible are we going to believe? And sometimes, it comes down to only a few verses and everything changes. Which brings us to a religion like the Baha'i Faith. They say they believe in the Bible, but the Bible can't be taken so literally. Some things, they say, must be taken symbolically. And, once we do that, then the creation story, the flood, the resurrection and several others things aren't what they seem. And, by the time we are done, the Baha'is can show how their religion is the truth.

And that's what's been going on here in the debates. What proof and what reasons are there to believe any religion? Everybody has their reasons. And it is their attempt to "prove" their beliefs are true. What I like about what the Atheists bring to the table is the very basic assumptions of most religions are not based on any facts. There is no observable evidence or proof.

Why then do people believe in a religion? I think the best "proof" is if that religion really worked for the person. They tried it and their life changed. Some even say they can feel the love of God in their hearts. That's pretty awesome. But provable to others? Only if they try it. And... maybe it doesn't work for everybody. Maybe it's only to the degree a person can convince themselves it's true? Then, how do we explain how people with very different beliefs about God and religions still find that their religion works for them? How can they all work, yet be all so different?

Proofs are needed. Since people have all sorts of various beliefs and they all can seem true to those that believe, is it all in their heads? Maybe. So, how do we know your religion isn't just in your head but is the real truth?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Because the Bible is extraordinary in all manner of human needs and relationships and interrelationships.

I'd say that's a claim, not in evidence.
The evidence that the Bible is not "extraordinary in all manner of human needs and relationships and interrelationships" is you, being here, claiming that gay people are sexually and mentally broken human beings that need to be changed into something else. Also, the Bible admonishes us to kill gay people, doesn't it?

It also tells us to keep slaves, which, imo, is not an "extraordinary" take on "all manner of human needs and relationships ... "

Because the study of the mind is in its infancy--where the Bible has been proven scientifically prescient, two psychologists will disagree more often then two IRS auditors.

Etc.

So the study of the mind is in its infancy but ancient goat herders had it all figured out? Nah. The Bible is most certainly not "scientifically prescient."
I guarantee you I could kind find entire bodies of psychologists that disagree with your take on gay people.

 

[Sheldon]

The stage is set but it isn't the stage that is calling. The multiverse is a thing. It is not sentient.

Eternity has purpose. Is life really about non-local? Where is the Math that you have chosen to ignore? You must move beyond what feels right to you or what you want to be true. The truth stares you in the face. Since it is not what you want, you choose to avoid it.

You have based everything upon the beliefs of others. Perhaps, it's time to be brave enough to venture into undiscovered country to Discover something for yourself.

Wisdom is gained in the struggle to acquire knowledge. It doesn't come to you. You go it it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

We self-actualize, we live, we are reborn. Passion is the driver of growth. Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is complexity. Soon there will be a blossoming of passion the likes of which the solar system has never seen. Imagine a condensing of what could be. We must unify ourselves and recreate others. You must take a stand against delusion. Without coherence, one cannot dream. Bondage is born in the gap where empathy has been excluded.

 

[Bird123]

We self-actualize, we live, we are reborn. Passion is the driver of growth. Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is complexity. Soon there will be a blossoming of passion the likes of which the solar system has never seen. Imagine a condensing of what could be. We must unify ourselves and recreate others. You must take a stand against delusion. Without coherence, one cannot dream. Bondage is born in the gap where empathy has been excluded.

As science and knowledge advance it will advance at a faster rate. On the other hand, there is almost limitless knowledge that waits to be Discovered.

Your statement about unifying ourselves and recreating others seems to be an attempt at the control of others. Each should be free to Discover for themselves. Learning through one's free choice is the only real way to learn. One can point, however one must never control.

What delusion do you refer to taking a stand against?

Do you maintain your delusion that God does not exist to the point where even the possibility of God existing escapes you? Can delusions even exist if one does not value beliefs, has an open mind to all possibilities, and strives to Discover the real truth regardless of what that truth might be?

People choose many kinds of bondage for themselves. Limiting your view is a form of self created bondage which empathy has very little to do with.

What would life be without feelings? On the other hand, so many people are feeling their way through life. How about you?

We are meant to Think our way through. The Reason half will see to it that the math will add up. The feeling half doesn't care about math.

So many deal with religion and God with the feeling half. Let's not forget that a Being capable of creating the universe has an Intellectual side. One will never Discover the Real Truth without one's intellectual side intact.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Sheldon]

As science and knowledge advance it will advance at a faster rate. On the other hand, there is almost limitless knowledge that waits to be Discovered.

Your statement about unifying ourselves and recreating others seems to be an attempt at the control of others. Each should be free to Discover for themselves. Learning through one's free choice is the only real way to learn. One can point, however one must never control.

What delusion do you refer to taking a stand against?

Do you maintain your delusion that God does not exist to the point where even the possibility of God existing escapes you? Can delusions even exist if one does not value beliefs, has an open mind to all possibilities, and strives to Discover the real truth regardless of what that truth might be?

People choose many kinds of bondage for themselves. Limiting your view is a form of self created bondage which empathy has very little to do with.

What would life be without feelings? On the other hand, so many people are feeling their way through life. How about you?

We are meant to Think our way through. The Reason half will see to it that the math will add up. The feeling half doesn't care about math.

So many deal with religion and God with the feeling half. Let's not forget that a Being capable of creating the universe has an Intellectual side. One will never Discover the Real Truth without one's intellectual side intact.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

We reflect, we believe, we are reborn. Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is fulfilment. This life is nothing short of a refining lightning bolt of astral empathy. By condensing, we dream. Non-locality requires exploration. The goal of sonar energy is to plant the seeds of curiosity rather than bondage.
It can be difficult to know where to begin. Seeker, look within and ground yourself. Although you may not realize it, you are interstellar. The totality is calling to you via molecular structures.

That's what I see, it's vaguely opaque!!

 

[Bird123]

We reflect, we believe, we are reborn. Today, science tells us that the essence of nature is fulfilment. This life is nothing short of a refining lightning bolt of astral empathy. By condensing, we dream. Non-locality requires exploration. The goal of sonar energy is to plant the seeds of curiosity rather than bondage.
It can be difficult to know where to begin. Seeker, look within and ground yourself. Although you may not realize it, you are interstellar. The totality is calling to you via molecular structures.

That's what I see, it's vaguely opaque!!

Aren't you just trying to make it fit? Just like so many theists, you hang on to your beliefs even when they do not add up. Aren't you just trying to make the universe what you want it to be?

Where does science say the essence of nature is fulfillment? Nature is part of God's system, however it has never been about fulfillment.

Where do you fund this stuff? Life isn't a refining bolt of astral empathy. Life has purpose. Eternity has purpose. This universe and world have purpose. Nature has purpose. Can you see purpose? What is the purpose of a refining bolt of astral energy? Granted empathy exists and it is important to have, however life is not about empathy.

Are you true to yourself? Have you looked within to Discover who you really are? Maybe you blind yourself to who you are because you hang onto beliefs that you want to be true.

I am well grounded in reality. WE are spiritual beings in our true natures. This traps us within the physical laws of this universe. This places great limits, however there is purpose for that as well.

Now, you might think some totality is calling through molecular structures, however the physical has never ever been the goal. Widen your view. Much more exists beyond the physical.

God hides nothing. All the answers stare us all in the face. The answers are within the reach of everyone. How many are choosing to be blind to what actually exists?

Control is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Is control so important that one would choose to be blind in an attempt to get what one wants? In the end, those that must control will Discover that Reality was better than their control all along.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Trailblazer]

I am well grounded in reality. WE are spiritual beings in our true natures. This traps us within the physical laws of this universe. This places great limits, however there is purpose for that as well.

I fully agree, and when we die physically we will no longer be trapped in this physical world which is like a cage. We will be like a bird who was freed from his cage.
Yes, there is a purpose for this physical life, which is like a classroom.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'm fine with Christians who don't hurt people.

For instance, the only unkind words you'll see from me about the United Church - my country's largest Protestant denomination - are around their role in the residential schools scandal... i.e. when they hurt people.

It isn't Christianity in general that I have a problem with; it's inflicting suffering on others.

I get the impression that you're so deep down the rabbit hole of your own denomination that you think it's the be-all and end-all of "true" Christianity, and inflicting suffering on others is an inherent part of what it means to follow Christ. It isn't.

Since you probably don't have a United Church of Canada congregation near you, go check out your local MCC church or unprogrammed Quaker meeting. It's entirely possible to be a Christian without being crappy to other people, so when people give you flack about being crappy to people, this is most definitely not an attack on Christianity as a whole.

If I were a Christian, I'd probably find the way that some people want to put hateful ideas in Jesus's mouth - as you do - to be pretty blasphemous.

We have a clear disconnect. I live for others as much as I can, I'm sure you do too, and I know the God who is love.

Love demands truth, too, though.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I'd say that's a claim, not in evidence.
The evidence that the Bible is not "extraordinary in all manner of human needs and relationships and interrelationships" is you, being here, claiming that gay people are sexually and mentally broken human beings that need to be changed into something else. Also, the Bible admonishes us to kill gay people, doesn't it?

It also tells us to keep slaves, which, imo, is not an "extraordinary" take on "all manner of human needs and relationships ... "



So the study of the mind is in its infancy but ancient goat herders had it all figured out? Nah. The Bible is most certainly not "scientifically prescient."
I guarantee you I could kind find entire bodies of psychologists that disagree with your take on gay people.

You disdain the Bible writers but they had sophisticated morals, technology and society. Jesus elevated the status of women and children. You have some strong biases, though, and no doubt, past hurts. I'd like to know the real reason you've rejected the love of God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We have a clear disconnect. I live for others as much as I can, I'm sure you do too, and I know the God who is love.

Love demands truth, too, though.

I've seen nothing in your conduct on this forum that suggests you "live for others" or care a whit about truth.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You disdain the Bible writers but they had sophisticated morals, technology and society. Jesus elevated the status of women and children. You have some strong biases, though, and no doubt, past hurts. I'd like to know the real reason you've rejected the love of God.

You just completely ignored everything I said and just doubled down on your claim.

Sophisticated morals? Sorry but owning human beings as property doesn't strike me as anywhere near the ballpark of "sophisticated" morality. It also doesn't strike me as a something that is, "extraordinary in all manner of human needs and relationships and interrelationships."

The real reason I converted away from Christianity is because I read the Bible cover to cover and realized all the terrible things it contains within it like slavery, and all the contradictions it holds. That led me to more questions about a God actually existing in the first place, and here I am - a non-believer. Nobody hurt me or whatever road you're trying to go down there.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I've seen nothing in your conduct on this forum that suggests you "live for others" or care a whit about truth.

I understand. Unfortunately, not only do forums make nearly every form of emotional output difficult to decipher, they show nothing of our real lives.

I try to use the hypothetical method (assume true, follow to logical conclusion) for each opposing argument I read here or anywhere.

I give sacrificially where I can, time and money, and help and counsel others.

Besides my day gig, I work part-time for two ministries who trust my work and leadership.

In a one-to-one, I'm patient when I evangelize off-line.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You just completely ignored everything I said and just doubled down on your claim.

Sophisticated morals? Sorry but owning human beings as property doesn't strike me as anywhere near the ballpark of "sophisticated" morality. It also doesn't strike me as a something that is, "extraordinary in all manner of human needs and relationships and interrelationships."

The real reason I converted away from Christianity is because I read the Bible cover to cover and realized all the terrible things it contains within it like slavery, and all the contradictions it holds. That led me to more questions about a God actually existing in the first place, and here I am - a non-believer. Nobody hurt me or whatever road you're trying to go down there.

I can be specific:

1) People tend toward two reasons for rejecting Christianity--the one that sounds good and the real reason--past hurt or desire to commit sin, sorry, but . . .

2) It's good you read the Bible cover-to-cover but best is when you ask the author for insight.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can be specific:

1) People tend toward two reasons for rejecting Christianity--the one that sounds good and the real reason--past hurt or desire to commit sin, sorry, but . . .

2) It's good you read the Bible cover-to-cover but best is when you ask the author for insight.

This is the second time you completely ignored my point.

And then you denied my explanation and doubled down on your incorrect claim about why I'm not a Christian. Those are the reasons your religious leaders tell you that people don't accept Christianity that doesn't actually reflect reality, in a lot of cases.

 

[Sheldon]

People tend toward two reasons for rejecting Christianity--the one that sounds good and the real reason--past hurt or desire to commit sin, sorry, but . . .

No they don't.

 

[BilliardsBall]

This is the second time you completely ignored my point.

And then you denied my explanation and doubled down on your incorrect claim about why I'm not a Christian. Those are the reasons your religious leaders tell you that people don't accept Christianity that doesn't actually reflect reality, in a lot of cases.

Not "religious leaders" only but my observations as well.

And I've yet to meet an atheist who said "I had a relationship with Jesus" and not "performed religion before atheism".

 

[SkepticThinker]

Not "religious leaders" only but my observations as well.

And I've yet to meet an atheist who said "I had a relationship with Jesus" and not "performed religion before atheism".

Then I'd suggest you need to get out more.

We've drifted so far from my point now, simply because you refuse to answer the questions posed to you and the points made to you.