darkpenguin
Charismatic Enigma
Ciscokid said:
hate to say it but you guys voted him into power knowing full well what the repercusions were going to be, you should try being british and hating him and blair, it gets tiresome fast!
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Bush makes me mad
- Thread starter Ciscokid
- Start date
hate to say it but you guys voted him into power knowing full well what the repercusions were going to be, you should try being british and hating him and blair, it gets tiresome fast!
Congress has allocated only a fraction of the funds needed for this wall, and I don't expect full funding anytime soon. Heck, we're still waiting for No Child Left Behind funding.
I suspect this fix is largely symbolic.
If we really wanted to reduce illegal immigration we already have a proven fix -- enforce the existing regulations against employing illegal aliens.
I suspect this fix is largely symbolic.
If we really wanted to reduce illegal immigration we already have a proven fix -- enforce the existing regulations against employing illegal aliens.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Seyorni said:
I agree, and would add to make the path to legal immigration and citizenship easier.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Seyorni said:
Bingo! But it has to have real teeth. That would also fix the societal costs as the fines and penalties would offset some of the public expenditures for health care and education, and processing deportation. If the real risks are high enough that they effect the economic incentive to hire illegal immigrants, the market will correct this problem. But this is an economic/business and domestic law enforcement problem moreso than a border security problem.
Faint
Well-Known Member
The fence is a start, but not the solution. As other members have pointed out, we need to impose more penalties on those who hire illegal immigrants, as well as the immigrants themselves. I propose heavy fines for the companies; jail time for the execs. And for those who think they can sneak up here, steal SS numbers and demand service in spanish and free benefits from MY tax dollars...well, that's why catapults were invented. We need to set up a row of hydrolic powered catapults at various checkpoints along the border. Any illegals caught need to be loaded into these devices and launched on a trajectory straight towards Vicente Fox's house.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Ciscokid said:
Yes, it has. Especially since 9/11 (and because of some other stupid laws). It's almost impossible for some people. They're only hope of getting a greencard is to play the Greencard Lottery. So they apply year after year, while they and their loved ones only wait... and hope.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The problem is the President of America is not directly voted in by the people. The Electorial College puts that person in office. Traditionally the EC goes by the peoples votes, but thier have been occasions when they have went against. Or you could just make votes in a major state come up missing.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Eisenhower was a pretty good President. He got the ball rolling on civil rights with executive orders desegregating the military. Upon leaving office he left us with these amazingly prescient warnings:
___________________________________________________
We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.
* * *
Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in newer elements of our defense; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research -- these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we wish to travel.
But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs -- balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage -- balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between actions of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.
The record of many decades stands as proof that our people and their government have, in the main, understood these truths and have responded to them well, in the face of stress and threat. But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. I mention two only.
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.
Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.
Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever presen and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientifictechnological elite.
It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.
Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.
Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.
Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield.
Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.
Happily, I can say that war has been avoided. Steady progress toward our ultimate goal has been made. But, so much remains to be done. As a private citizen, I shall never cease to do what little I can to help the world advance along that road.
* * *
We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.
___________________________________________________
We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America's leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.
* * *
Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small, there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in newer elements of our defense; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research -- these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we wish to travel.
But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs -- balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage -- balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between actions of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.
The record of many decades stands as proof that our people and their government have, in the main, understood these truths and have responded to them well, in the face of stress and threat. But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. I mention two only.
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.
Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.
Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation's scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever presen and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientifictechnological elite.
It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system -- ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.
Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we -- you and I, and our government -- must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.
Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.
Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield.
Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose differences, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war -- as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years -- I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.
Happily, I can say that war has been avoided. Steady progress toward our ultimate goal has been made. But, so much remains to be done. As a private citizen, I shall never cease to do what little I can to help the world advance along that road.
* * *
We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.
PureX
Veteran Member
Clinton did pretty well as a president except in his private affairs. He was well liked, easy to understand, intelligent, and really did try to do as much good for people as he could, given the restrictions of his office. It's a shame he was so screwed up in his private affairs and that these would naturally become public. Yet, at the same time, we Americans tend to way over-react to anything sexual becoming public. And the republicans were willing to rake up any amount of muck, true or otherwise, to try and smear Clinton. In a way, the reaction to Clinton's indiscretions were more embarrassing than the indiscretions, themselves. And they surely did more harm to the nation.
I wish Clinton would run again. I think hindsight has made him a much wiser and caring man than he was a president, and he'd be a lot more effective because of it if he held the office, again. Though, I don't think even he could clean up the unbelievable mess that the Bush administration has created. It'll take a decade to do that.
I wish Clinton would run again. I think hindsight has made him a much wiser and caring man than he was a president, and he'd be a lot more effective because of it if he held the office, again. Though, I don't think even he could clean up the unbelievable mess that the Bush administration has created. It'll take a decade to do that.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
I liked Clinton until DOMA. I'm not sure I can forgive him for that betrayal.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
The border will not work! My uncle Jose will simply move to the right until he sees no more border. There was a study that showed that the higher concentration of crossings were in areas where no borders were present. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that people will gravitate to where they perceive less work. Even if they managed to border up the whole south, you will see damaged fencing and creative methods of crossing all throughout the southern states. Maybe catapults with parachutes or something.
If you there is no work, then you will not have illegal immigrants. Simple as that. You can leave the border wide open and no one would come if there was no work for them.
Although I will say that it ticks me off that some would nest in the border and shoot illegal immigrants. I hear this stupid rhetoric from some talk show hosts.
If you there is no work, then you will not have illegal immigrants. Simple as that. You can leave the border wide open and no one would come if there was no work for them.
Although I will say that it ticks me off that some would nest in the border and shoot illegal immigrants. I hear this stupid rhetoric from some talk show hosts.
kai
ragamuffin
hey and i mean this with respect but.....why dont you guys stop whining what do you want him to do build a fence or open the border sheesh, you start comparing him with past presidents that you criticized just as vociferously at the time they were in , each president has to handle the situations he finds his country in at the time, think of a time with no war no terrorists no immigration problem, and will you find a "good " pesident or one just having an easy ride.