Business People As Political Leaders

[Neo Deist]

Now we are name calling? That's pretty desperate.

Well, at least we agree that being called a democrat is a negative!

Not desperate...it just explains a few things.

 

[dust1n]

Obama is a perfect example of why a president should've had at least some management experience beforehand.

Two problems with that is 1.) I'm pretty sure Obama does have some management experience. 2.) That's not a constitutional requirement of a president. =[

 

[JerryL]

Well, at least we agree that being called a democrat is a negative!

So the purpose was to insult. Let me go find the "report" button

Not desperate...it just explains a few things.

So you agree that now that the deficit, which went up infinitely (that is to say, from a surplus to the largest in history) under Bush (who took office with more experience in oil than politics) has decreased 2/3rds under Obama's presidency?

Great! I'll even toss in this pretty chart:
http://static3.businessinsider.com/image/50fbcd61eab8ea4434000006-960/screen shot 2013-01-20 at 5.48.24 am.png

 

[Revoltingest]

Two problems with that is 1.) I'm pretty sure Obama does have some management experience. 2.) That's not a constitutional requirement of a president. =[

The Constitution sets minimum requirements for a president.....
- 35 years old
- Resident of US for last 14 years
- Natural born citizen
- White land owning male able to skin a mule

There are desirable qualities too.....
- Intelligent
- Likable
- Educated
- Wide experience
- Managerial experience
- Business experience
- Government experience
- Capable
- Cool headed
- Wise
- Open minded

Obama had never managed anything before becoming Prez, & faced a steep learning curve.
This didn't make him formally unqualified, but few candidates have everything.
Even if one is ideal for the job, it's no guarantee of smooth sailing.

 

[metis]

I agree with you in principle and theory. State leadership goes beyond economics but there should be a solid background in it or that leader better have a very good financial adviser. A state has little to stand on if it cannot produce. All the grand ideals of living have no means of thriving if there is no foundation to produce and maintain capital.

Concerning your example, it does add to your thesis but I feel it's too small of a sample size. I can't say its conclusive to suggest that a "CEO" can't lead a nation. Keep in mind that I'm not a Trump supporter either.

Thanks for your response and I do agree with you. However, let me just say that I did not mean nor imply that a business owner cannot be a good political executive but that they cannot, or at least should not, try to run the country or state like a business, such as Snyder here has done.

 

[metis]

You think Joe Scarborough is a Republican?

Yes, unless one just wants to stereotype them as if they should all be the same. As for myself, I prefer some diversity.

 

[JerryL]

Obama had never managed anything before becoming Prez, & faced a steep learning curve.

He managed his campaigns.
He managed his office as senator.
He managed several activities as a community organizer.
He manages his staff at a law firm.

This didn't make him formally unqualified, but few candidates have everything.

None come screaming to mind.

 

[Revoltingest]

He managed his campaigns.
He managed his office as senator.
He managed several activities as a community organizer.
He manages his staff at a law firm.

Those don't qualify as real management experience.
They're like "managing a home", "managing one's studies", or "managing one's car maintenance".
I'm thinking more of being in charge of a sizable company or a state, ie, being in
charge of something large & complex, for which one is responsible for the results.
Obama never even ran a lemonade stand.

None come screaming to mind.

Obamacare was (& is) horribly mismanaged.
His homeowner bail-out program was a complete failure
due to a complete lack of understanding of the situation.

 

[tytlyf]

Those don't qualify as real management experience.
They're like "managing a home", "managing one's studies", or "managing one's car maintenance".
I'm thinking more of being in charge of a sizable company or a state, ie, being in
charge of something large & complex, for which one is responsible for the results.
Obama never even ran a lemonade stand.

Obamacare was horribly mismanaged.

The presidency is a leadership position, nothing more.

 

[Revoltingest]

The presidency is a leadership position, nothing more.

So he's the country's leader...nothing more?
I think this might be the strangest thing you've ever said.
(There are so many contenders, you know.)

 

[JerryL]

Those don't qualify as real management experience.
They're like "managing a home", "managing one's studies", or "managing one's car maintenance".
I'm thinking more of being in charge of a sizable company or a state, ie, being in
charge of something large & complex, for which one is responsible for the results.

I would say managing a national campaign for president is unlike "managing a home" or "managing one's studies". I'm surprised you find them comparable. Have you ever run one?

Obama never even ran a lemonade stand.

Do you know that for a fact?

Obamacare was (& is) horribly mismanaged.
His homeowner bail-out program was a complete failure
due to a complete lack of understanding of the situation.

None of that has anything do to with the quoted text. Which "candidates have everything"?

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks for your response and I do agree with you. However, let me just say that I did not mean nor imply that a business owner cannot be a good political executive but that they cannot, or at least should not, try to run the country or state like a business, such as Snyder here has done.

Snyder has been a typical politician & governor.
What signs of running it as a business do you see?

 

[Revoltingest]

I would say managing a national campaign for president is unlike "managing a home" or "managing one's studies". I'm surprised you find them comparable. Have you ever run one?

To manage a campaign isn't really management experience.
Everyone who runs for office manages a campaign.
This would mean that everyone who runs for office has management experience.
It would be absurd to treat that as significant as running a business or a state, which is far more complex.

Do you know that for a fact?

Yes.
I've accused him of it, & he's never denied it.

None of that has anything do to with the quoted text.

It directly addresses the portion of your post which I quoted.

Which "candidates have everything"?

Oh, there's a subject which will be hotly disputed.
Jimmy Carter comes to mind.
He also illustrates that experience doesn't guarantee good performance.

 

[JerryL]

To manage a campaign isn't really management experience.
Everyone who runs for office manages a campaign.
This would mean that everyone who runs for office has management experience.

And we know that "everyone who runs for office has management experience" [edit] is not true [/edit] how?

It would be absurd to treat that as significant as running a business or a state, which is far more complex.

Is that the standard? Because I'm pretty sure "leader of a soverign nation" is "far more complex" than any other management; meaning all non-presidents lack management experience.

I've accused him of it, & he's never denied it.

But.. I accused him of running a lemonade stand, and he's not denied that either.

It directly addresses the portion of your post which I quoted.

You don't appear to. You went off about how the (Conservative-think-tank-created) ACA was bad.

Oh, there's a subject which will be hotly disputed.
Jimmy Carter comes to mind.
He also illustrates that experience doesn't guarantee good performance.

Carter's performance was actually pretty good.

 

[Revoltingest]

And we know that "everyone who runs for office has management experience" how?

I thought this was your claim.

Is that the standard? Because I'm pretty sure "leader of a soverign nation" is "far more complex" than any other management; meaning all non-presidents lack management experience.

Tis better to enter the presidency already having significant management experience.
The associated skills are better learned beforehand, rather than on the job.

But.. I accused him of running a lemonade stand, and he's not denied that either.

Unlike with me, he's just ignoring you.

You don't appear to. You went off about how the (Conservative-think-tank-created) ACA was bad.

"Went off"?
All I did was cite it as an example of failure.
The Heritage Foundation proposed the idea, but didn't create the system.
The poor design & implementation were Obama's responsibility.
He failed.....not someone who merely offered the idea decades before (1989).

Carter's performance was actually pretty good.

I'd call it "lackluster", but no real argument here.

 

[dust1n]

The Constitution sets minimum requirements for a president.....
- 35 years old
- Resident of US for last 14 years
- Natural born citizen
- White land owning male able to skin a mule

There are desirable qualities too.....
- Intelligent
- Likable
- Educated
- Wide experience
- Managerial experience
- Business experience
- Government experience
- Capable
- Cool headed
- Wise
- Open minded

Well, at least we got the managerial experience and business experience this go around.

Obama had never managed anything before becoming Prez, & faced a steep learning curve.
This didn't make him formally unqualified, but few candidates have everything.
Even if one is ideal for the job, it's no guarantee of smooth sailing.

"After four years living in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago to work as a community organizer. He worked for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.[52][54][55] During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens.[56]"

Director of a staff of 13 and overseeing a budget of 400k? Before he even went to law school? I mean, I guess he was a director and not a manager...

"In February 1990, his second year at Harvard, he was elected president of the law review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[61]"

And a voter drive:

"Obama directed Illinois Project Vote from April to October 1992, a voter registration drive, officially nonpartisan, that helped Carol Moseley Braun become the first black woman ever elected to the Senate.[55] He headed up a staff of 10 and 700 volunteers that achieved its goal of 400,000 registered African Americans in the state, leading Crain's Chicago Business to name Obama to its 1993 list of "40 under Forty" powers to be.[68][69][70] Although fundraising was not required for the position when Obama was recruited for the job, he started an active campaign to raise money for the project. According to Sandy Newman, who founded Project Vote, Obama "raised more money than any of our state directors had ever done. He did a great job of enlisting a broad spectrum of organizations and people, including many who did not get along well with one another."[70]"

And I presume being the founding member on a board of directors qualifies as some sort of management experience.

"Obama was a founding member of the board of directors of Public Allies in 1992, resigning before his wife, Michelle, became the founding executive director of Public Allies Chicago in early 1993.[52][80] He served on the board of directors of the Woods Fund of Chicago, which in 1985 had been the first foundation to fund Obama's DCP, from 1993–2002, and served on the board of directors of The Joyce Foundation from 1994–2002.[52] Membership on the Joyce and Wood foundation boards, which gave out tens of millions of dollars to various local organizations while Obama was a member, helped Obama get to know and be known by influential liberal groups and cultivate a network of community activists that later supported his political career.[66] Obama served on the board of directors of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge from 1995–2002, as founding president and chairman of the board of directors from 1995–1999.[52] He also served on the board of directors of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, the Center for Neighborhood Technology, and the Lugenia Burns Hope Center.[52]"

Early life and career of Barack Obama - Wikipedia

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, at least we got the managerial experience and business experience this go around.

You might've noticed though, that a few other desirable qualities are lacking.

"After four years living in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago to work as a community organizer. He worked for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.[52][54][55] During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens.[56]"
Director of a staff of 13 and overseeing a budget of 400k? Before he even went to law school? I mean, I guess he was a director and not a manager...
"In February 1990, his second year at Harvard, he was elected president of the law review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[61]"
And a voter drive:
"Obama directed Illinois Project Vote from April to October 1992, a voter registration drive, officially nonpartisan, that helped Carol Moseley Braun become the first black woman ever elected to the Senate.[55] He headed up a staff of 10 and 700 volunteers that achieved its goal of 400,000 registered African Americans in the state, leading Crain's Chicago Business to name Obama to its 1993 list of "40 under Forty" powers to be.[68][69][70] Although fundraising was not required for the position when Obama was recruited for the job, he started an active campaign to raise money for the project. According to Sandy Newman, who founded Project Vote, Obama "raised more money than any of our state directors had ever done. He did a great job of enlisting a broad spectrum of organizations and people, including many who did not get along well with one another."[70]"

And I presume being the founding member on a board of directors qualifies as some sort of management experience.

"Obama was a founding member of the board of directors of Public Allies in 1992, resigning before his wife, Michelle, became the founding executive director of Public Allies Chicago in early 1993.[52][80] He served on the board of directors of the Woods Fund of Chicago, which in 1985 had been the first foundation to fund Obama's DCP, from 1993–2002, and served on the board of directors of The Joyce Foundation from 1994–2002.[52] Membership on the Joyce and Wood foundation boards, which gave out tens of millions of dollars to various local organizations while Obama was a member, helped Obama get to know and be known by influential liberal groups and cultivate a network of community activists that later supported his political career.[66] Obama served on the board of directors of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge from 1995–2002, as founding president and chairman of the board of directors from 1995–1999.[52] He also served on the board of directors of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, the Center for Neighborhood Technology, and the Lugenia Burns Hope Center.[52]"

Early life and career of Barack Obama - Wikipedia

The supervisory roles you cited just don't impress me.
Those roles lack accountability for defined results, ie, no one could ever be found to have failed at them.
They're like getting a trophy for showing up to the game.
Had he been the CEO of a big company, governor of a state, or mayor of a large city, I'd grant him the mantle of managerial experience.

 

[metis]

Well, at least we got the managerial experience and business experience this go around.



"After four years living in New York City, Obama moved to Chicago to work as a community organizer. He worked for three years from June 1985 to May 1988 as director of the Developing Communities Project (DCP), a church-based community organization originally comprising eight Catholic parishes in Greater Roseland (Roseland, West Pullman, and Riverdale) on Chicago's far South Side.[52][54][55] During his three years as the DCP's director, its staff grew from 1 to 13 and its annual budget grew from $70,000 to $400,000, with accomplishments including helping set up a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization in Altgeld Gardens.[56]"

Director of a staff of 13 and overseeing a budget of 400k? Before he even went to law school? I mean, I guess he was a director and not a manager...

"In February 1990, his second year at Harvard, he was elected president of the law review, a full-time volunteer position functioning as editor-in-chief and supervising the law review's staff of 80 editors.[61]"

And a voter drive:

"Obama directed Illinois Project Vote from April to October 1992, a voter registration drive, officially nonpartisan, that helped Carol Moseley Braun become the first black woman ever elected to the Senate.[55] He headed up a staff of 10 and 700 volunteers that achieved its goal of 400,000 registered African Americans in the state, leading Crain's Chicago Business to name Obama to its 1993 list of "40 under Forty" powers to be.[68][69][70] Although fundraising was not required for the position when Obama was recruited for the job, he started an active campaign to raise money for the project. According to Sandy Newman, who founded Project Vote, Obama "raised more money than any of our state directors had ever done. He did a great job of enlisting a broad spectrum of organizations and people, including many who did not get along well with one another."[70]"

And I presume being the founding member on a board of directors qualifies as some sort of management experience.

"Obama was a founding member of the board of directors of Public Allies in 1992, resigning before his wife, Michelle, became the founding executive director of Public Allies Chicago in early 1993.[52][80] He served on the board of directors of the Woods Fund of Chicago, which in 1985 had been the first foundation to fund Obama's DCP, from 1993–2002, and served on the board of directors of The Joyce Foundation from 1994–2002.[52] Membership on the Joyce and Wood foundation boards, which gave out tens of millions of dollars to various local organizations while Obama was a member, helped Obama get to know and be known by influential liberal groups and cultivate a network of community activists that later supported his political career.[66] Obama served on the board of directors of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge from 1995–2002, as founding president and chairman of the board of directors from 1995–1999.[52] He also served on the board of directors of the Chicago Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, the Center for Neighborhood Technology, and the Lugenia Burns Hope Center.[52]"

Early life and career of Barack Obama - Wikipedia

But hey, whaddya expect from someone who voted for Trump and actually "thinks" that Snyder has done a good job? How can anyone excuse their blatantly demeaning and/or sometimes illegal actions? But, as even child psychologists tell us, watch who your children's friends are, and if you don't like what you see, ...

BTW, in regards to the latter, the AG here in Michigan, who is a Republican btw, says that the investigation and probable indictments are going "up and outward", and the only "up" positions left is with Snyder and/or his lieutenant governor. There's also a FBI investigation going on, btw.

 

[Revoltingest]

But hey, whaddya expect from someone who voted for Trump and actually "thinks" that Snyder has done a good job?

It would depend upon what one considers a "good" job.
You likely believe that Granholm (the Canuckistanian Democrat who preceded him) was fine & dandy.
But Snyder is an improvement, having balanced the budget, & addressed failing cities like Flint & Detroit.
Could he have done better?
Yes. So I'd say "good", but not excellent.

How can anyone excuse their blatantly demeaning and/or sometimes illegal actions? But, as even child psychologists tell us, watch who your children's friends are, and if you don't like what you see, ...

You "think" Snyder is acting illegally?
This would require some elaboration & evidence.

BTW, in regards to the latter, the AG here in Michigan, who is a Republican btw, says that the investigation and probable indictments are going "up and outward", and the only "up" positions left is with Snyder and/or his lieutenant governor. There's also a FBI investigation going on, btw.

You imply Snyder is legally liable only because you can't support the allegation you want to make.
This is rather deceptive.

 

[JerryL]

I thought this was your claim.

See edit. A few words were missing from my post.

Tis better to enter the presidency already having significant management experience.
The associated skills are better learned beforehand, rather than on the job.

Agreed. Though no one has the skills to be president learned who has not been president. (aside from basic skills like communications and math).

Indeed: the most critical *skills* would have to do with governance and diplomancy. So the best candidate skill wise would be some sort of legal or governmental scholar with experience in the national legislature and perhaps a cabinet position with foreign interaction (like secretary of state).

One might also presume that VPs are well prepped to set into the Pres role. .

Unlike with me, he's just ignoring you.

"Went off"?
All I did was cite it as an example of failure.

But I was asking which candidates had all of the skills in advance. I wasn't asking about examples of failures.

I'd call it "lackluster", but no real argument here.

I think that's fair.