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Busting gun-culture myths that always surface after mass shootings; let’s get real

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
What do you see as qualification to own a firearm?

I'm no gun expert, but here is my list and why:

1) Training. Military countries that train all its citizens particularly with guns have shown less accidental gun deaths.
2) Ability to safely and securely store the guns. Criminals get their guns illegally but from legal guns, most of the time. Most guns are manufactured legally, then the laws are to weak to ensure that the guns stay in legal state.
3) Mental health/Maturity. This last one is highly subjective. I don't even know how to really effective state a solution. All I can say is that too often, mentally disturb especially suicidal males are able to possess guns. All it takes is one little window of madness to murder or or to kill oneself.

I'm not against gun ownership. I just want to make sure the right folks with the right training and with the right resources are the ones carrying guns.
 
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suncowiam

Well-Known Member
Agreed.

Of course they do.
Do you agree?

Whether they do or don't, measures to improve
mental health for the vulnerable here is worthwhile,
not just for the violence problem, but also because
they need the help.

You say there's a "real issue", & that to address others
is a "smokescreen". That smacks of single issue
politics, ie, a gun ban is the only solution.
That ignores the obvious fact that gun violence is a
multi-faceted problem. In our political environment, it
must be treated thus to make progress. Extremists who
want to just ban guns don't have either a legal basis, or
a majority consensus. This makes their view irrelevant
in negotiating a productive compromise.

I don't see anyone here claiming it.
Neither in the media, although it's certainly
possible by someone somewhere sometime.
If you want to argue against that view, I'm
not the one to defend it.

We also need regulation requiring....
- Secure storage
- Thorough training
- A comprehensive red flag system
regarding all gun transfers.

I'm not promoting prohibition of guns. I'm promoting gun control and the better enforcement of it.

Some people do not have the right to own guns because they represent a larger danger to society compared to the benefits of what the second amendment has been interpreted for.

Some people here, not you, are promoting that mental health is the only issue.

You and I are mostly in agreement. Thanks for your thought out reply.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
You may not be blaming it, but society and media in general is overflowing with examples of blaming mental illness. And it's the crux of these frequent bombardments of bringing up mental illness after a mass shooting. It's lets those who live in la-la land keep their fantasies about mental illness and having control over their lives, it gives them an easy scapegoat while letting them completely and entirely ignore the fact they themselves are just one bad and unfortunate event away from mentally losing it.
And it lets those spewing completely ignore how spontaneous, spur of the moment violence is a massive chunk of gun deaths. This is the part the lets those in la-la land believe it's mental illness and they don't have to worry.
And it further contributes to the stigmatization of mental illness.
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
I'm no gun expert, but here is my list and why:

1) Training. Military countries that train all its citizens particularly with guns have shown less accidental gun deaths.
2) Ability to safely and securely store the guns. Criminals get their guns illegally but from legal guns, most of the time. Most guns are manufactured legally, then the laws are to weak to ensure that the guns stay in legal state.
3) Mental health/Maturity. This last one is highly subjective. I don't even know how to really effective state a solution. All I can say is that too often, mentally disturb especially suicidal males are able to possess guns. All it takes is one little window of madness to murder or or to kill oneself.

I'm not against gun ownership. I just want to make sure the right folks with the right training and with the right resources are the ones carrying guns.

1. I'm all for training, but my right odes not hinge on it.
2. People can safely store their guns, but to try to force this via home inspections etc. would make Orwell blush.
3. Currently in most states in you are extremely mentally ill you lose your access to guns. However the threat of losing this right discourages people from getting help when they need it. Given the abuse of mental health systems and terms used including the labeling of all Trump voters as dumb, uneducated, racist etc. The reality of trying to make gun off limits to anyone with a family member who has a mental heath diagnosis is like banning free speech for anyone who live within 5 miles of a school bus stop.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
1. I'm all for training, but my right odes not hinge on it.
2. People can safely store their guns, but to try to force this via home inspections etc. would make Orwell blush.
3. Currently in most states in you are extremely mentally ill you lose your access to guns. However the threat of losing this right discourages people from getting help when they need it. Given the abuse of mental health systems and terms used including the labeling of all Trump voters as dumb, uneducated, racist etc. The reality of trying to make gun off limits to anyone with a family member who has a mental heath diagnosis is like banning free speech for anyone who live within 5 miles of a school bus stop.

We know what your rights are.

But maybe your right shouldn't hinge on what is needed to provide a safe gun culture.

Maybe, the second amendment has been interpreted wrong or is antiquated. And it needs to be updated for modern times to reflect modern "arms."

The arms being represented has shown that it can kill dozens in minutes. So maybe, in this case, what is better for society should be restrictions on the individuals to not have easy access to guns.

But if you still want to prioritize your right, then so be it. I don't have more to discuss on that.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Busting gun-culture myths that always surface after mass shootings; let’s get real

Second link:

Busting gun-culture myths that always surface after mass shootings; let’s get real


Interesting article from an author who claimed to have been "a gun enthusiast for more than 40 years."

Does any of the talking points ring a bell?

It’s been 27 years. Gun laws have loosened, mass shootings have gotten way worse and the pro-gun rhetoric’s gotten more refined.

Assault weapons were heavily regulated by federal law from 1994 to 2004.
Constitutionality challenges were filed; none succeeded in court.
We weren’t any less free, just safer.

The author is confused; he makes contradictory statements. His arguments are familiar: make a list of talking points that includes a few things most people will agree with and many people will then assume the other points are also true. It is a refined rhetorical technique.

The reality is that gun laws started becoming more strict in the 1990s starting with the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 and gun deaths in the U.S. have increased since that time. I don't think a productive discussion about gun control can be had until the negative correlation between gun ownership and violence is acknowledged.

Moreover, I dont' think it is possible to talk about the recent wave of gun deaths in children (or in people generally) without examining recent cultural phenomena.
1999-_Gun-related_deaths_USA.png

As you can see there was a spike in gun-related homicides in 2020 - a year of significant unrest in the U.S., including a global pandemic, BLM riots, and political division.
Was there a change in gun laws in 2019 that caused a spike in gun deaths?
What are the new gun laws in 2019?
There was a minor wave of gun control activism in 2018 that led to some increased restrictions in 2019.

Gun control activists don't address the real causes of violence in society. They are driven mostly by fear to "do something". Because they don't actually have any clue what to do, they have latched unto a superficial solution. In this case, their solution inevitably leads to more violence, because they fail to understand that nature abhors a vaccuum. Disarm people and something inevitably comes to fill the void. If you take away the capability to defend the schools, then schools become the target.

Cartels are filling the power vacuum at the U.S. border with Mexico and now fentanyl in the leading cause of death for adults between the ages of 18 and 45 in the U.S.
 

suncowiam

Well-Known Member
The author is confused; he makes contradictory statements. His arguments are familiar: make a list of talking points that includes a few things most people will agree with and many people will then assume the other points are also true. It is a refined rhetorical technique.

The reality is that gun laws started becoming more strict in the 1990s starting with the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990 and gun deaths in the U.S. have increased since that time. I don't think a productive discussion about gun control can be had until the negative correlation between gun ownership and violence is acknowledged.

Moreover, I dont' think it is possible to talk about the recent wave of gun deaths in children (or in people generally) without examining recent cultural phenomena.
1999-_Gun-related_deaths_USA.png

As you can see there was a spike in gun-related homicides in 2020 - a year of significant unrest in the U.S., including a global pandemic, BLM riots, and political division.
Was there a change in gun laws in 2019 that caused a spike in gun deaths?
What are the new gun laws in 2019?
There was a minor wave of gun control activism in 2018 that led to some increased restrictions in 2019.

Gun control activists don't address the real causes of violence in society. They are driven mostly by fear to "do something". Because they don't actually have any clue what to do, they have latched unto a superficial solution. In this case, their solution inevitably leads to more violence, because they fail to understand that nature abhors a vaccuum. Disarm people and something inevitably comes to fill the void. If you take away the capability to defend the schools, then schools become the target.

Cartels are filling the power vacuum at the U.S. border with Mexico and now fentanyl in the leading cause of death for adults between the ages of 18 and 45 in the U.S.

There are many hypothesis being stated or assume in your comment.

Could you simplify it into one hypothesis, since you only provided one chart, and some examples of gun control laws?

Let's just start with one hypothesis and we can continue.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
There are many hypothesis being stated or assume in your comment.

Could you simplify it into one hypothesis, since you only provided one chart, and some examples of gun control laws?

Let's just start with one hypothesis and we can continue.

The author made the following statements:

It’s been 27 years. Gun laws have loosened, mass shootings have gotten way worse and the pro-gun rhetoric’s gotten more refined.

Assault weapons were heavily regulated by federal law from 1994 to 2004.
Constitutionality challenges were filed; none succeeded in court.
We weren’t any less free, just safer.
 
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