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Buying Products That Profit Questionable Individuals or Entities

It's not that she raised the issue; it's that definitively speaking about it as if it had already been established as a significant problem only serves to muddy the waters on an issue that, as you pointed out, is quite complex both scientifically and ethically.

Seems to me that she is expressing concern about something that may be occurring, while also acknowledging that many people can benefit from treatment. Basically that more research needs to be done to see who benefits and who may regret it.

Can you quote the part you think is problematic?

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues - J.K. Rowling

She did the same thing with the alarmism about trans women in women's bathrooms. So far, there has been no evidence that men are going out and identifying as women in droves in order to gain access to women's bathrooms and attack women there. The possibility is definitely worth talking about, but as just that: a possibility thus far—not as something that has already occurred.

I'm not a woman, but I can see why some women, especially those who have been sexually assaulted, might feel intimidated by allowing transwomen into women's bathrooms, changing rooms, etc.

In my hometown, there was a women's refuge for victims of violence that was recently criticised as 'transphobic' for not allowing transwomen.

To me it seems like an issue of competing rights which can only be decided upon by a subjective value judgement about whose rights should be given precedence.

Seeing as bigoted those who in good faith prefer one over the other seems wrong to me, and also a serious roadblock against finding the best solutions.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
As per my definition, since being a woman relates to sex, trans women are not women. They are trans women, period. Trans men (that underwent sex reassignment surgery) and non-binary wouldn't be women either, but neither would they be men.

I am also not saying this is how everyone ought to use the term. I don't have this kind of authority after all, nor does anyone else.

What is the practical utility in insisting that we attach the "trans" prefix to "women" every time we talk about them, though? Aside from a few very specific scenarios, what kind of situation requires this?

If you recognize that not everyone should follow your suggestion to constantly make a distinction between trans women and cis women, then hopefully you can see why the question of how to define "woman" or "man" is far from straightforward or clearly answered to many, including medical and scientific organizations.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I would argue the basis for women not showing off body parts comes from this Our Brains See Men as Whole and Women as Parts - Scientific American It doesn't dictate what we should do, but it explains why we feel we should do it as a kind of rectification.

The idea of men being more intelligent than women probably comes from the fact that men work with things and women with people, and tend to do things considered hard science (engineering, physics, chemistry etc.) more often than women, as women engage in soft sciences (psychology, sociology etc.) that are based around people, using things that are not based on a kind of 2+2 = 4 methodology. We still see hard science as the best kind of intelligence, whether we admit it or not, and this is a decidedly male field. It's why we think STEM is better than the Humanities.

I suppose these are potential theories about the roots of these cultural tendencies, but it seems to me that overall, culture ends up playing a much larger role in shaping these expectations than biology (save for a few examples, such as mothers having custody by default unless other factors require otherwise). In particular, I think the different expectations placed on men and women in different religions and how said religions shape the culture around them are a clear example of this.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Boycotts are "cancel culture"? As far as I know, no one is calling for her to be legally penalized for her opinions. Voting with one's wallet is an age-old and valid method of expression, as is encouraging people to avoid giving their money to certain individuals or entities. Do you oppose these personal freedoms?
They are doing more than just this boycott attempt. The trans activists despise and hate Ms. Rowling. Yes, they have been attempting to cancel culture her. It is they that don't support personal freedoms. They want to deny Ms. Rowlings her personal freedoms.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Let's take the CCP as an example. If I buy specific Chinese products, I know some of the revenue is going to the Chinese government that is now committing genocide against the Uyghurs, abusing political dissidents, and exercising geopolitical exploitation of multiple countries.

If I decide to boycott China because of this, I'm left with two issues:

1) my boycott has a minuscule, negligible impact, and

2) I will be inconsistent if I don't also boycott products that generate revenue for Saudi Arabia, the US, France, or any other country with notably abusive policies, be they domestic or foreign.

How to resolve the second problem is, to me, a more difficult question than how to resolve the first one, since I can answer the first by saying that my boycott is primarily conscientious even if it has a negligible impact.

I honestly don't see the problem. You will boycott all of those countries.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What are your thoughts on buying media or any other product that profits people who engage in harmful or hateful activism or who otherwise direct money toward causes you find unethical?

That one should avoid it as much as is reasonably possible, with exceptions granted with due consideration. But while we're on the subject of the video gaming industry, the example cited in the OP is hardly the only or even the worst example of the rot in that industry. The video gaming industry has become one of the most foul of our age, at least by first world standards, with its careless exploitation of both its own customers and its abuse of its own employees. It is not uniformly problematic, and needed reform is slowly happening, but only because some of us finally found out and woke up to what was going on. Just finding out about corporate abuses is half the battle. Once you know, to not act on them is being complicit.

Do you believe not boycotting the product makes one complicit, even if indirectly, or can one buy something that generates profit for an objectionable individual or entity without necessarily being blameworthy?

See above. Actions have consequences. If you feed something you know is a problem, you are part of the problem. If you feed something you don't know is a problem, you are also part of the problem. If you feed something that is part of the problem but don't have a real choice in the matter, it's time for a revolt and to create alternatives. This is how stuff like poison-free produce got started. Someone said "wait, I don't want to buy food that was created by spraying poison on the land, that's horrible!" and started up solutions.
 

Secret Chief

Very strong language
I honestly don't see the problem. You will boycott all of those countries.
I think the "problem" might be we have limited information and if one boycotted every country that one considered problematic in some way one may end up finding it difficult or practically impossible to make the purchases one wishes to.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Seems to me that she is expressing concern about something that may be occurring, while also acknowledging that many people can benefit from treatment. Basically that more research needs to be done to see who benefits and who may regret it.

Can you quote the part you think is problematic?

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues - J.K. Rowling

The essay is quite long, and I don't think I would be able to list every single part I have a problem with and address it sufficiently in one post. But just for a few examples:

I’m concerned about the huge explosion in young women wishing to transition and also about the increasing numbers who seem to be detransitioning (returning to their original sex), because they regret taking steps that have, in some cases, altered their bodies irrevocably, and taken away their fertility.

In 2018, American physician and researcher Lisa Littman set out to explore it. In an interview, she said:

‘Parents online were describing a very unusual pattern of transgender-identification where multiple friends and even entire friend groups became transgender-identified at the same time. I would have been remiss had I not considered social contagion and peer influences as potential factors.’

Littman mentioned Tumblr, Reddit, Instagram and YouTube as contributing factors to Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria, where she believes that in the realm of transgender identification ‘youth have created particularly insular echo chambers.’

I want to be very clear here: I know transition will be a solution for some gender dysphoric people, although I’m also aware through extensive research that studies have consistently shown that between 60-90% of gender dysphoric teens will grow out of their dysphoria.

First, available evidence shows that only a small minority of trans children "desist" or "grow out of gender dysphoria." The "60-90%" claim is overwhelmingly false and unevidenced, at least if we go by current science and not fringe voices:

Transgender kids tend to maintain their identities as they grow up, study suggests

How many transgender kids grow up to stay trans?

The Controversial Research on 'Desistance' in Transgender Youth | KQED

Second, there's no evidence that "increasing numbers" of trans women are detransitioning. The wording itself is misleading: since transitioning is now more accessible and more socially accepted than before, any given percentage of detransitioning is going to result in larger numbers now that more people are able to transition. But the percentage itself hasn't been established to be large or to have increased in the first place: 2% (just a random number I'm using as an example) of 1,000 is 20, but 2% of a million is 20,000. The same percentage amounts to a wildly different number.

This article addresses more of the claims she has made, although I haven't cross-checked it yet with many other sources. It responds in detail to some of her points, though (despite the clickbaity title):

This Is The Sequel J.K. Rowling Doesn’t Want You To Read

I'm not a woman, but I can see why some women, especially those who have been sexually assaulted, might feel intimidated by allowing transwomen into women's bathrooms, changing rooms, etc.

In my hometown, there was a women's refuge for victims of violence that was recently criticised as 'transphobic' for not allowing transwomen.

To me it seems like an issue of competing rights which can only be decided upon by a subjective value judgement about whose rights should be given precedence.

Seeing as bigoted those who in good faith prefer one over the other seems wrong to me, and also a serious roadblock against finding the best solutions.

I have commented before, including on this forum, that there are indeed valid concerns about unconditionally allowing people into all spaces for women as long as they identify as women. For instance, there's a lot of evidence that seeing male genitalia can trigger PTSD responses in some survivors of sexual assault. I also see other areas, such as sports, where there are a lot of issues that still need to be discussed, researched, and worked on.

All of this is important to talk about, as is the subject of minors undergoing surgery or hormone therapy, or children taking puberty blockers. However, I don't see an influential public figure who makes unevidenced claims on such a complicated and, to many, life-changing issue to be acting in good faith... and even if we assume she is, the practical outcome of what she's doing is largely negative. Any valid concerns she could have expressed have been drowned out by her support for unambiguously anti-trans people (such as Matt Walsh), hasty conclusions (e.g., the idea that men will intentionally identify as women to assault women in bathrooms), and the unevidenced claims (e.g., that "60-90%" of trans kids "grow out of" gender dysphoria).

There are many ways to talk about these issues and discuss them productively, and I do think that some people are too quick to react negatively to even the suggestion that, say, trans women shouldn't automatically be allowed to compete against cis women in sports. But J. K. Rowling seems to me a clear example of someone whose input on the issue has been unproductive and harmful far more often than not.
 
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Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
They are doing more than just this boycott attempt. The trans activists despise and hate Ms. Rowling. Yes, they have been attempting to cancel culture her. It is they that don't support personal freedoms. They want to deny Ms. Rowlings her personal freedoms.

Again: which trans activists are trying to "cancel culture" her, and how? They're free to despise or hate her, just as you are free to despise or hate them. If that were equivalent to "canceling" someone, all of us would be guilty of "canceling" someone at one point or another.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Seems to me that she is expressing concern about something that may be occurring, while also acknowledging that many people can benefit from treatment. Basically that more research needs to be done to see who benefits and who may regret it.

Can you quote the part you think is problematic?

J.K. Rowling Writes about Her Reasons for Speaking out on Sex and Gender Issues - J.K. Rowling



I'm not a woman, but I can see why some women, especially those who have been sexually assaulted, might feel intimidated by allowing transwomen into women's bathrooms, changing rooms, etc.

In my hometown, there was a women's refuge for victims of violence that was recently criticised as 'transphobic' for not allowing transwomen.

To me it seems like an issue of competing rights which can only be decided upon by a subjective value judgement about whose rights should be given precedence.

Seeing as bigoted those who in good faith prefer one over the other seems wrong to me, and also a serious roadblock against finding the best solutions.

Yes I think this whole area is very new and potentially problematic. It seems to me we should proceed with caution and resist being frogmarched by the activists, who seem so keen to stigmatise those who are uncomfortable with it.

I have a particular case in mind, as it happens. The daughter of an old friend has for some years had a male partner, with whom she seemed to be happy and with whom she recently had a baby. This man, about a year ago, announced he was a woman. They are still together but I struggle to think what the girl has made of her partner catapulting her into a pseudo lesbian relationship. So far as I know he has not had the surgery. I don't even know if he intends to. I find it hard to resist the suspicion that this may be some kind of kink or role play on his part, rather than a genuine, deeply held conviction that he is a really a woman (unlike Jan Morris, for example, who famously said she knew she was in the wrong body from childhood).

Of course I don't mean to suggest that is what all transwomen are like, but I expect there will be a range of motives and a range of degrees of conviction, some of it inevitably influenced by culture.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes I think this whole area is very new and potentially problematic. It seems to me we should proceed with caution and resist being frogmarched by the activists, who seem so keen to stigmatise those who are uncomfortable with it.

As with any relatively uncharted territory, a degree of discomfort among some people is inevitable while exploring the topic. However, I think we should also resist amplification of misconceptions or unsubstantiated claims from people who seem to believe they already have the map drawn and figured out.

I don't think everyone who has questions or some discomfort around the subject is a bigot, but I also see a solid case that continually promulgating inaccuracies around the subject makes a public figure irresponsible and complicit in harming others.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
What is the practical utility in insisting that we attach the "trans" prefix to "women" every time we talk about them, though? Aside from a few very specific scenarios, what kind of situation requires this?

I am not sure I understand your question. We could refer to everyone as 'human' or 'person', but we often use words like 'man' and 'woman', even when there is really no need to do so.

If you recognize that not everyone should follow your suggestion to constantly make a distinction between trans women and cis women, then hopefully you can see why the question of how to define "woman" or "man" is far from straightforward or clearly answered to many, including medical and scientific organizations.

I didn't say not everyone should follow my suggestion. I just meant I see no need to impose it upon anyone nor to insist others follow my example.

I think there is a clear answer, more or less, on how to define 'man' and 'woman', but a lot of people just don't like it. It is the social understanding of the term that gives it a definition.

And more importantly, to think that such definitions could be authoritatively given by medical and scientific communities doesn't only border scientism... It is scientism.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
As with any relatively uncharted territory, a degree of discomfort among some people is inevitable while exploring the topic. However, I think we should also resist amplification of misconceptions or unsubstantiated claims from people who seem to believe they already have the map drawn and figured out.

I don't think everyone who has questions or some discomfort around the subject is a bigot, but I also see a solid case that continually promulgating inaccuracies around the subject makes a public figure irresponsible and complicit in harming others.
Yes, that's fair enough, certainly.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I think the "problem" might be we have limited information and if one boycotted every country that one considered problematic in some way one may end up finding it difficult or practically impossible to make the purchases one wishes to.

Sure. But doing what is moral isn't always easy, right? It might mean, for example, you might never again eat many foods you like.

If you have a major moral disagreement with everyone then buy from the ones you disagree the least with... or the ones where your purchase will make the least impact.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
In which case I wouldn't be able to buy multiple essential goods, such as certain medications and necessary devices. Sometimes there's no real room for a boycott.

When there is no room, there is no room.
If your medications and devices are really necessary you don't have much of a choice. One should obviously only boycott what they can reasonably boycott.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I have refused to buy a Coors product for decades, because the Coors family funded anti-LGBTQ efforts. I will never buy anything from Coors, as a result.
 
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