By Faith. Why?

[Audie]

How would you define 'love'?

If you do t know what it is I can't help
you.
If you think only " christians" know, so much the worse.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Justification by faith was prophesied by Habakkuk when he said, 'but the just shall live by his faith' [Habakkuk 2:4]. Of course, it's not that people hadn't lived by faith before the coming of Jesus Christ, because we're told in Hebrews 11 that Abel 'offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain', and he did so 'by faith'. Thereafter, a long list of Old Testament figures lived by faith.
Is there a difference between the faith shown by the OT figures, and faith shown by 'born again' believers in the NT? Can we say that the object of faith is the same?
To my understanding, Paul is correct when he says, 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law' [Romans 3:28]. This does not mean that works are not important, only that works must follow faith.
I have taken to wondering why it is that Hebrews 11:6 says, 'without faith it is impossible to please him [God]'.
It seems to me that God initiates our trust. God is love, 'a God of truth and without iniquity' [Deuteronomy 32:4]. He raises his own as an only son, admonishing and correcting but always in the spirit of love. The upbringing provided by God allows the son to become a loving example of the Father's Spirit. The love takes root in the son, and the son's trust is rewarded. Is this the reason that trust, or faith, is so important?
Sometimes a delinquent son seeks to fulfil vain ambitions, and does not heed the loving advice of the Father. Yet the Father, ever faithful to his son, continues to offer him love, knowing that even delinquent sons can repent and return. Earthly existence is short, scripture warns us, and the great reward of faith is eternal life with the Father.
So, what is an atheist doing when he declares that faith in God is without evidence? Is love not the evidence that the Son bears the Father's Spirit?

How about one question at a time _____
The ones named in God's Hall of Fame (Hebrews chapter 11) had faith/confidence in God.
Some showed faith in God before the Constitution of the Mosaic Law was drawn up.
Others showed faith in God while living under and obeying the Mosaic Law.
Once Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic law (Romans 10:4) then Christians would put faith in Jesus' teachings.
Teachings such as found at Matthew 24:13-14; Acts of the Apostles 1:8
Faith 'without works' (both literal and spiritual) is dead - James 2:26
So, besides the preaching/teaching spiritual work, Jesus gave us the example of the neighborly good Samaritan.
We are all to broaden out, widen out in showing practical love towards one in distress.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Well, in Matthew 11, Jesus spoke to the multitudes about the prophet John (the Baptist). Jesus said, 'Verily l say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he'.
This must mean that the faith of John the Baptist is inferior to the faith of those that enter the kingdom of heaven in the NT. Or am l wrong?..................!

No, John's faith was Not inferior. Please remember John the Baptist died before Jesus died. - John 3:13
The way to Heaven was Not opened up until 'after' Jesus was resurrected.
Thus, whoever died before Jesus (Like John and David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34) are still sleeping in death.
Anyone who died before Jesus has an earthly hope, an earthly resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
So, John the Baptist along with the named people in God's Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11:13,39) will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth being restored back to live life again on Earth with the opportunity to live forever on Earth as was originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
They will be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have understood faith means faithfulness, loyalty to God. I don't think there is difference between OT and NT in that.

.... and I'd like to add that faith is 'confidence' in God, so yes, faith/confidence is the same but under different times.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Questions, then: Do you think that all non-believers who are married to eachother have no knowledge of what love actually is? If they don't experience real love between each other, what is it that they experience?
How does using god as a definition of love apply to love as viewed by the greater world in a practical context? If non Christians all agree pretty resoundingly on what love is without god being part of the equation - where does god come in?

I suppose God comes into the picture by giving us the definition of Christ-like love as defined at 1 Corinthians 13:4-7.

Christians would believe what God says (in the Bible), endures all things as Jesus taught to endure (Matthew 24:13), bears all things for Jesus' sake, and hopes all thing that Jesus taught (Revelation 22:2 that Jesus will bring ' healing ' to earth's nations.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

ALL believers in Christianity have their belief based on 'faith' not evidence regardless of their claims of certainty of faith................

To me the fact that we have the Bible is evidence.
To me the Bible is Not 'blind faith' (credulity) but faith/confidence in what Jesus teaches.
Jesus 'claim of certainty of his faith' was by his using his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures.
Jesus often prefaced his statements with the words, " it is written....." meaning already written down in the OT.
So, like Jesus, Christian believers have faith/confidence in following the teachings of Jesus.
Putting into practice what Jesus taught to do gives evidence of his backing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........................ Earthly existence is short, scripture warns us, and the great reward of faith is eternal life with the Father.....................

I wonder what Scripture you have in mind that Earthly existence is short, scripture warns us ___________
I find Jesus promised that humble meek people will inherit the Earth at Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11,29.
No one who died before Jesus died (John 3:13) is offered Heaven but offered Earth.
Even the faithful of Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39 are Not yet resurrected. - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
That is because the earthly resurrection does Not start before Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth with righteousness.
Also, the figurative living 'sheep' at Jesus' coming Glory Time (Matthew 25:31-34,37) can remain alive on Earth and be here on Earth to see calendar Day One of Jesus' thousand-year reign over Earth when the earthly resurrection will take place.
The Great Reward of Faith is Heaven for some ( Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 20:6; 5:9-10) but for most the Great Reward of Faith is eternal life on Earth under Christ as King of God's Kingdom - 1 Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8

 

[Valjean]

Justification by faith was prophesied by Habakkuk when he said, 'but the just shall live by his faith' [Habakkuk 2:4]. Of course, it's not that people hadn't lived by faith before the coming of Jesus Christ, because we're told in Hebrews 11 that Abel 'offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain', and he did so 'by faith'. Thereafter, a long list of Old Testament figures lived by faith.

Is there a difference between the faith shown by the OT figures, and faith shown by 'born again' believers in the NT? Can we say that the object of faith is the same?

To my understanding, Paul is correct when he says, 'Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law' [Romans 3:28]. This does not mean that works are not important, only that works must follow faith.

I have taken to wondering why it is that Hebrews 11:6 says, 'without faith it is impossible to please him [God]'.

It seems to me that God initiates our trust. God is love, 'a God of truth and without iniquity' [Deuteronomy 32:4]. He raises his own as an only son, admonishing and correcting but always in the spirit of love. The upbringing provided by God allows the son to become a loving example of the Father's Spirit. The love takes root in the son, and the son's trust is rewarded. Is this the reason that trust, or faith, is so important?

Sometimes a delinquent son seeks to fulfil vain ambitions, and does not heed the loving advice of the Father. Yet the Father, ever faithful to his son, continues to offer him love, knowing that even delinquent sons can repent and return. Earthly existence is short, scripture warns us, and the great reward of faith is eternal life with the Father.

So, what is an atheist doing when he declares that faith in God is without evidence? Is love not the evidence that the Son bears the Father's Spirit?

S/he's using the term as it's defined: Unjustified belief; belief with insufficient or false evidence.

No, love is not evidence of any particular religious doctrine. It's just extreme appreciation, biochemically generated like any other emotion.

If you want to argue for religion or scripture, I think you should start with your basic premises. Justify these and we can go on from there.

 

[Audie]

To suggest that there is no evidence for Christian faith is to overlook the Bible as a source of evidence. It was the Bible that convinced me that Jesus Christ was, and is, real. The revelation may have been at a personal level, but the evidence still existed, objectively, in the words of scripture.

The Bible also contains information that can be checked. The history recorded in both Testaments allows for research and validation. How can anyone say that such evidence is not relevant to the claim that the Bible is God's word?

The things that are important- the supernatural
stuff- cant be checked. You know that.
Nobody needs to check if Egypt is real.
Other manage to write history without the
magic realism or claim that events are God's word.

 

[shunyadragon]

Of course, there are things in the Bible that cannot be verified by observable evidence. This is exactly the nature of love. Outward behaviour can deceive.

This is not the problem with the Bible it is simply then that and failed to respond. Other than 'some' fatual geography and people that have been verified by 'outside evidence.' the Bible as a whole is dependent on belief in faith that it is true and not remotely evidence, by definition

The Bible acts as a pointer to the person who is able to provide the subjective knowledge and assurance. How can a person possibly know the truth if they never 'test the water'?

What your argument about the Hebrew Bible overlooks is the fact that all the first Christians were themselves Jews, well acquainted with the Hebrew texts. They also witnessed the life of Jesus and gave their testimony of their encounter. There is really no plausible reason for doubting the sincerity of their word. Even miracles are understandable if God's Spirit is present. Miracles were evident in the Old Testament, but became associated with Jesus and the Holy Spirit in the NT.

Miracles by the standard definition in the English language are not evidence, because they cannot remotely objectively verified from the OT and even today. By definition they defy Natural Law and without objective evidence to confirm them,

Hint: The word in the dictionary after Miracle is 'Mirage.;.

Being as you claim a pointer is not remotely 'evidence.' You need to start using basic English correctly to communicate with. You need to explain what you mean by 'Testing the waters?' when no objective verifiable evidence has been presented to test the waters of your argument.

Still remains a problem of the subjectivity of prophecy defies any assertions that it is evidence. The number of Jews that accepted Jesus is a very very small comparative minority in history. It remains a fact that beside this minority at the time of Jesus very very few Jews became Christians. In history the Jews refused to accept the interpretation of the prophesies that Jesus was the Messiah he claimed.

Again, again and again you cannot conclude that the prophesies that Christians claim are fulfilled by Jesus is factual evidence, because it does not fit the plain English definition of facts nor evidence. There is far to wide a disagreement between 99.99% of all Jews in history that reject the prophecies claimed by Christianity. The many different churches also do not agree in all the prophecies,

Conclusions prophecies are not evidence and remain subjective widely open and dependent on interpretation,

It is also very evident that you cannot backup your claim that the Bible is evidence, and failed to respond to the posts refuting your claim in plain English.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No, John's faith was Not inferior. Please remember John the Baptist died before Jesus died. - John 3:13
The way to Heaven was Not opened up until 'after' Jesus was resurrected.
Thus, whoever died before Jesus (Like John and David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34) are still sleeping in death.
Anyone who died before Jesus has an earthly hope, an earthly resurrection - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
So, John the Baptist along with the named people in God's Hall of Fame (Hebrews 11:13,39) will have a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth being restored back to live life again on Earth with the opportunity to live forever on Earth as was originally offered to Adam before his downfall.
They will be part of the humble meek people who will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5 from Psalms 37:9-11

Are you saying that those who died before the coming of Christ will not be lifted up to meet Christ 'in the air' at the rapture? [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17] Or, are you saying that when Christ returns with his saints that there will be a dividing of the saints into those who live on earth for a thousand years and those who reign in heaven?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The things that are important- the supernatural
stuff- cant be checked. You know that.
Nobody needs to check if Egypt is real.
Other manage to write history without the
magic realism or claim that events are God's word.

The supernatural stuff includes prophecy, because only God is omniscient. He sees the whole picture and He connects the writings of the prophets through the Holy Spirit.

No amount of falsehood or collusion would enable men to write the Bible. It took about 1500 years to complete the two Testaments, and the writers, the prophets, were not familiar with all the writings that would eventually make up the canon of scripture.

The Bible is, therefore, the best evidence available for the existence of God. It comes to mankind as the revealed word of the Creator, pointing mankind to His only Saviour, Christ Jesus. [IMO]

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is not the problem with the Bible it is simply then that and failed to respond. Other than 'some' fatual geography and people that have been verified by 'outside evidence.' the Bible as a whole is dependent on belief in faith that it is true and not remotely evidence, by definition



Miracles by the standard definition in the English language are not evidence, because they cannot remotely objectively verified from the OT and even today. By definition they defy Natural Law and without objective evidence to confirm them,

Hint: The word in the dictionary after Miracle is 'Mirage.;.

Being as you claim a pointer is not remotely 'evidence.' You need to start using basic English correctly to communicate with. You need to explain what you mean by 'Testing the waters?' when no objective verifiable evidence has been presented to test the waters of your argument.

Still remains a problem of the subjectivity of prophecy defies any assertions that it is evidence. The number of Jews that accepted Jesus is a very very small comparative minority in history. It remains a fact that beside this minority at the time of Jesus very very few Jews became Christians. In history the Jews refused to accept the interpretation of the prophesies that Jesus was the Messiah he claimed.

Again, again and again you cannot conclude that the prophesies that Christians claim are fulfilled by Jesus is factual evidence, because it does not fit the plain English definition of facts nor evidence. There is far to wide a disagreement between 99.99% of all Jews in history that reject the prophecies claimed by Christianity. The many different churches also do not agree in all the prophecies,

Conclusions prophecies are not evidence and remain subjective widely open and dependent on interpretation,

It is also very evident that you cannot backup your claim that the Bible is evidence, and failed to respond to the posts refuting your claim in plain English.

If there was absolute certainty of God, of the kind that you seek, then faith would not play a part in the relationship with God.

And, since God is Spirit, and not observable material, you are always going to have an issue with God, in the same way that you're going to have an issue with love. Love is Spirit, and to recognize love one must have faith. And let's not forget, scripture tells us that God loved us before we ever loved God. His love comes first, and we are just children learning to love.

Your own experience of love must teach you that trust is necessary in relationships. It is no different with the Lord. If you search for God with the mind but not with the heart, you'll never find him. Period.

If you tell me that you've read the scriptures with care and an open heart, and still cannot find God, then l have some sympathy. Nevertheless, life is short, and those that cannot find their Saviour must ask themselves what death involves. All men are to die once, but what then?

 

[Redemptionsong]

If you do t know what it is I can't help
you.
If you think only " christians" know, so much the worse.

You say that love is known intiuitively. Is that the whole story?

I once visited Auschwitz and was surprised to see how close the commandant's residence was to Crematorium no.1. This got me thinking. There were men and women 'working' at Auschwitz, and other death camps, who saw murder on a daily basis. Some of these people would then return to their own families to kiss and greet their spouses, and to hug their children. They loved their own, but they hated the prisoners. What kind of love is that?

Then l got to thinking how Jesus would have behaved had he been an inmate. Would he have struggled to survive at a cost to his fellow prisoners? Or would he have held the hand of the child entering the gas chamber?

Jesus said, 'Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends'.

Did Jesus show 'greater love' when he was crucified? In my view, he even died for those who were not his friends at the time! How great a love is that?

 

[1213]

Well, in Matthew 11, Jesus spoke to the multitudes about the prophet John (the Baptist). Jesus said, 'Verily l say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he'.

This must mean that the faith of John the Baptist is inferior to the faith of those that enter the kingdom of heaven in the NT. Or am l wrong?

I don't think it is about faith. But, people may have different amount of faith (=loyalty). Maybe John didn't have as much faith as the others.

This leads me to ask about the gift of the Holy Spirit. One of the manifestations of the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 12:9] is FAITH! Is the faith of a man the same as the faith of God?!

I think God's faithfulness is greater than mans.

 

[shunyadragon]

If there was absolute certainty of God, of the kind that you seek, then faith would not play a part in the relationship with God.

And, since God is Spirit, and not observable material, you are always going to have an issue with God, in the same way that you're going to have an issue with love. Love is Spirit, and to recognize love one must have faith. And let's not forget, scripture tells us that God loved us before we ever loved God. His love comes first, and we are just children learning to love.

Your own experience of love must teach you that trust is necessary in relationships. It is no different with the Lord. If you search for God with the mind but not with the heart, you'll never find him. Period.

If you tell me that you've read the scriptures with care and an open heart, and still cannot find God, then l have some sympathy. Nevertheless, life is short, and those that cannot find their Saviour must ask themselves what death involves. All men are to die once, but what then?

You still have not responded to my posts. 'Finding God' is not remotely the issue in my posts, and your failure to respond. I actually believe in God so lets go on concerning your unreasonable claims concerning the certainty of the Bible you claim as 'evidence' and other claims you made as what is 'evidence.' By the way Jews find God without believing in the New Testament/ Many claim to find God without the Bible.

Still waiting for you to respond.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You still have not responded to my posts. 'Finding God' is not remotely the issue in my posts, and your failure to respond. I actually believe in God so lets go on concerning your unreasonable claims concerning the certainty of the Bible you claim as 'evidence' and other claims you made as what is 'evidence.'

Still waiting for you to respond.

Rather than repeating your objection maybe you could repeat your question.

 

[shunyadragon]

Rather than repeating your objection maybe you could repeat your question.

The posts I responded to you are very specific as to what you have failed to respond. You claimed the Bible was 'evidence,' the prophecies were 'evidence' concerning the fulfillment of prophecies by Jesus Christ, and none of this is true. As per the subject all this and more I responded to concerning your claims is based on 'belief' based on faith.

You also over stated the factual extent of the Bible. Yes, as with all ancient scriptures of the world some places, events and persons are documented by 'outside evidence' the Bible as whole is NOT evidence and everything else in the Bible is based on belief and faith NOT evidence that it is true. As previously stated based on the evidence the Bible is a redacted, edited compilation of documents based on what people believed at the time without provenance nor original manuscripts. Actually I admit based on the fallible nature of humans my belief in God is based on faith. As I previously clearly stated you need to use English terminology properly and NOT misuse such words as what is 'evidence.'

As far as the Torah or OT goes it is a relatively recent compilation from many sources dated no earlier then ~1000-700 BCE at best. The books of the Pentateuch have no factual provenance as to the time frame they claim, and evolved from more ancient non=Hebrew writings such as the Sumarian Gilgamesh epics.

 

[Audie]

The supernatural stuff includes prophecy, because only God is omniscient. He sees the whole picture and He connects the writings of the prophets through the Holy Spirit.

No amount of falsehood or collusion would enable men to write the Bible. It took about 1500 years to complete the two Testaments, and the writers, the prophets, were not familiar with all the writings that would eventually make up the canon of scripture.

The Bible is, therefore, the best evidence available for the existence of God. It comes to mankind as the revealed word of the Creator, pointing mankind to His only Saviour, Christ Jesus. [IMO]

"No amount of falsehood".
Flood and exodus are fictional.
Adam and eve and the 6 day creation are fiction.
Collusion is a stragely inept word.
The history of how people chose what old
writings to say are God's word is known
well enough though.
And then you simply assert its the revealed word of god.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Is there a difference between the faith shown by the OT figures, and faith shown by 'born again' believers in the NT?

I guess I kind of thought that Abraham was sort of an odd example for early NT writers to relate to. He seems like had no intermediary at all right? It was just him and god, 1:1. No Jesus in-between, no deacons, no law of Moses, nothing. Just Abraham and God