By Faith. Why?

[Redemptionsong]

People can say Yahweh is love but read what horrible things he did in the Bible.

Justice is about ensuring a fair outcome and a 'balancing of the scales'. Perfect justice is achieved by the perfectly objective judge, and that, according to scripture, is the one omniscient God.

Neither you, nor l, deserve better than objective justice. It is right that my actions should be judged by the law if l live by the law.

The great mercy that God shows in the NT of the Bible is forgiveness of sin. This is the love of God as expressed in John 3:16:
'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'

There exists an open invitation in God's merciful offering to mankind. All who hear the Gospel have the freedom of choice to accept or reject that invitation.

 

[shunyadragon]

In my opinion, your beliefs are an issue here!

You may consider them an issue, but I have not expressed what those beliefs are!!!! You have made insulting remarks as to what you believe my beliefs are which are not true.

Anyone who criticizes another does so from a particular standpoint, and that standpoint is a reflection their own beliefs.

Actually NO, because I have not described my beliefs.

As regards Torah Jews, my statement about spiritual blindness is directed particularly at Messianic (Suffering Servant) prophecies. We both know very well that there are passages of scripture that Torah Jews do connect to the Messiah, but these are all to do with a future Messianic kingdom on earth.

This is not the reality of the Jewish view of the prophesies. Some of the prophesies that the Christians claim describe a future Messiah the Jews believe they refers to future Hebrew Kings that fulfill the prophesy. The concept of the suffering Messiah is a highly interpretive conclusion of the text NOT accepted by the Jews, and it is in their own language and tradition,

When will the sin of mankind be dealt with if there is no 'Suffering Servant'?

God resolves the sins of humanity with compassion throughout the vast thousands of years of the history of ALL humanity. God is responsible for the nature of humanit as created, and his compassion deals with our faults.

If a Torah Jew dies tomorrow, before the return of the Messiah, will he know the salvation of God?

From the Jewish perspective they will, as they always have for the millennia of Hebrew history.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Acts was written by an unknown author, supposedly Luke, supposedly an associate of Paul, who did not witness anything according to Luke 1:1-3, and probably used Paul as his source of the event. As for some guy named Athanasius, the name is also associated with the high priest who condemned Yeshua to death and a guy who was struck down by the holy Spirit for lying. As for Paul's self-witnessing through Luke, Yeshua said the testimony of a self-witness is "not true" (John 5:31). The church that is a daughter of Babylon, the Gentile church, is the church established by Paul, the church based on Paul's false gospel of the cross/grace/lawlessness. The fellowship "persecuted" by the "Pharisee" Paul (Matthew 23:25-35), such as in the case of Stephen, were those who actually heeded the message of Yeshua. Those who claim to be the sons/followers of the persecutors of the righteous shall bear the guilt of "all the righteous" (Matthew 23:35). Apparently, Paul was blinded by a bright light, much as would be expected from an "angel of light", and according to Paul, who had other interactions with Satan, Satan often came as an angel of light. Not to say that Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13) or the shepherd "Favor" (as in God's Grace), Paul, (Zechariah 11:10) had much to say about their fate, which probably was derived from the foundation of the world, where as the righteous have their own angels (Matthew 18:10), the wicked (prophet) probably have their own angels (demon spirits) as well, as shown in (Revelation 16:13) whose behavior stemmed from the foundation of the world. The term "messiah" means "anointed", and Yeshua is one among many "anointed", which include David, and he came to fulfill the prophecy of Moses, with regard to the prophet to come, for which one should listen to. He also came to "fulfill the prophets and the LAW" (Matthew 5:17). Like the "many" (Matthew 7:13), you seem to conflate the word of Paul, with the word of God, whereas Yeshua compares the message of lawlessness (Matthew 13:39-42) with the message of the "devil", and the subsequent tares, the product of that message, shall be "gathered" and thrown into "the furnace of fire".

You appear to have become the judge of God's word. You pick and choose the bits you find agreeable and cast out the bits you don't like.

In Revelation 22:18,19, it says, 'For l testify unto every man that hear the words of the prophecy of this book, lf any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues of that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.'

Now, l don't think 'this book' is a reference to the book of Revelation alone. Moses gave (from God) the same warning to those that handled the Torah.

What you are doing, in contravention of God's command, is to 'take away' parts of the scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You may consider them an issue, but I have not expressed what those beliefs are!!!! You have made insulting remarks as to what you believe my beliefs are which are not true.



Actually NO, because I have not described my beliefs.



This is not the reality of the Jewish view of the prophesies. Some of the prophesies that the Christians claim describe a future Messiah the Jews believe they refers to future Hebrew Kings that fulfill the prophesy. The concept of the suffering Messiah is a highly interpretive conclusion of the text NOT accepted by the Jews, and it is in their own language and tradition,



God resolves the sins of humanity with compassion throughout the vast thousands of years of the history of ALL humanity. God is responsible for the nature of humanit as created, and his compassion deals with our faults.



From the Jewish perspective they will, as they always have for the millennia of Hebrew history.

Everything you write gives an indication as to what you accept and reject. These things may not constitute all you believe, but they give 'a flavour' of your beliefs.

Your speaking on behalf of Jews is not helpful.

In your last post you said, 'God resolves the sins of humanity with compassion throughout the vast thousands of years of the history of ALL humanity. God is responsible for the nature of humanit as created, and his compassion deals with our faults'.

So, do you accept that God resolves the sin of humanity eternally by giving his only begotten Son? [John 3:16]

 

[shunyadragon]

Everything you write gives an indication as to what you accept and reject. These things may not constitute all you believe, but they give 'a flavour' of your beliefs.

No hints at all. Your drawing conclusions by projecting in an insulting way what you believe I believe.

A few up fronts as to what I believe. I am a Baha'i, and Universalist,* and view our physical existence and what people believe as fallible human diverse conflicting from many religious perspectives. I consider the ancient scripture such as the Bible as reflecting more the fallible human perspective of God and God's relationship to Creation and humanity. There are far too many diverse and conflicting religions and divisions thereof for any one to claim absolutely what God's relation is to Creation and humanity. The time frame as matter of fact is billions of years and millions as far as the history of humanity. The pentateuch reflects and ancient mythological view of the early history of humanity,

I believe in a universal 'Source' that some call God or Gods in different cultures of humanity over the past hundred thousand of years of more.

*The concept of Universalism needs further explanation as in a previous thread I posted.

Your speaking on behalf of Jews is not helpful.

You spoke of the Jews in a misleading narrow perspective.

No I am giving some insight into the Jewish perspective which is more diverse than you describe. I responded when what you make misleading statements and generalizations concerning the what Jews believe.

In this last post you said, 'God resolves the sins of humanity with compassion throughout the vast thousands of years of the history of ALL humanity. God is responsible for the nature of humanit as created, and his compassion deals with our faults'.

So, do you accept that God resolves the sin of humanity eternally by giving his only begotten Son? [John 3:16]

No, that is not what I said. The concept of the animal or human sacrifice is a human concept in ancient Neolithic and Bronze Age cultures in the history of all cultures of humanity, and not God's way that humans resolve the guilt of sin.

The mythology of Adam and Eve was an effort to explain why God's Creation appears flawed and imperfect The conclusion was to explain God's Creation was originally mythically perfect and was to pass the buck and blame it on the Original Sin of Adam and Eve, which is absurd beyond belief that faults of fallible humans caused the apparent Fall from perfection for all future history.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Perfect love sends an angel to kill
children to pressure the pharoah even
the God "hardened his heart" to keep him
from yielding to pressure.
Right.

Justice is required under the law, and this is the standard for those living under the law.

Jesus made it possible to live by a new covenant. This new covenant is based on grace, not law.

You make a case for lives being brought to an 'untimely' end. The truth is, whether we live a year or 99 years, we all die physically.

The greatest love that any man can hope to know is the love that rewards with eternal life. But there are conditions for receiving this reward. God is holy, and his people must be holy to reside in his presence.

 

[Redemptionsong]

I'm well aware that there are many 'Jewish perspectives'!

I need to know which perspective you believe to be true.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm well aware that there are many 'Jewish perspectives'!

I need to know which perspective you believe to be true.

No religion is a single paradigm of belief what is true.

God, Not any one of the many diverse conflicting fallible human perspectives.

In fact, by the shear weight of evidence ancient religious beliefs are far out of touch with what we know today by way of science and the history of our universe and humanity. Science. of course does not represent any sort of absolute truth. but a relaible evolving body of knowledge based on consistent objective verifiable evidence, which is lacking in religion with many diverse conflicting beliefs based on subjective anecdotal claims.

I have no reason to believe the ancient tribal perspective of Jews, Christians nor Muslims is remotely true in and of themselves.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Justice is about ensuring a fair outcome and a 'balancing of the scales'. Perfect justice is achieved by the perfectly objective judge, and that, according to scripture, is the one omniscient God.

Neither you, nor l, deserve better than objective justice. It is right that my actions should be judged by the law if l live by the law.

The great mercy that God shows in the NT of the Bible is forgiveness of sin. This is the love of God as expressed in John 3:16:
'For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.'

There exists an open invitation in God's merciful offering to mankind. All who hear the Gospel have the freedom of choice to accept or reject that invitation.

Sorry, there are too many incidences of an admittedly jealous and violent god.

 

[2ndpillar]

You appear to have become the judge of God's word. You pick and choose the bits you find agreeable and cast out the bits you don't like.

In Revelation 22:18,19, it says, 'For l testify unto every man that hear the words of the prophecy of this book, lf any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues of that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things that are written in this book.'

Now, l don't think 'this book' is a reference to the book of Revelation alone. Moses gave (from God) the same warning to those that handled the Torah.

What you are doing, in contravention of God's command, is to 'take away' parts of the scripture.

You make a presumption that the words of the false prophets and their cronies are the words of God. It is the Roman church, that which the leader of the Protestant reformation, Luther, portrayed as the whore of Babylon, which edited and assembled your canon. Yeshua's clear message is that those "who commit/practice lawlessness", in line with your false gospel of grace, will be denied with regard to Matthew 7:23, or more precise in Matthew 13:41-42, will be "gathered" and cast into the "furnace of fire". You fail to realize that I haven't added or subtracted, that has been the role of the Gentile church, the daughter of Babylon, I have simply followed the example given in by the prophets, blown the horn, and separated the chaff/tare seed from the wheat seed, whereas the chaff and tares will be eventually burned come the "day of the LORD", which appears to be rapidly approaching (Matthew 3). Until then, although we are in the "end of the age", the son of man remains "near". the door" (Matthew 24:33) .The prophecies of "this book", the book of Revelation, include the "beast with two horns like a lamb", who is Constantine and his two Christ like leaders, Peter and Paul, the foundation of the dogmas of the Gentile church, which was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:11-14) The deception is past tense and still ongoing. Babylon, the pagan church and her daughters, sits on the beast king (such as the Roman emperor Constantine, one of many) and the king gets its authority from the "dragon"/devil. (Revelation 17:3 & 13:4). Even Paul in his commentary to Timothy refers to "scripture" the "holy writings" as that which he read from his youth. None of your Acts, Hebrews, or your even Timothy was around when Paul was a youth. Your house (Gentile church) is built on sand, and the winds, rains, and floods are coming (Matthew 7:27).

 

[2ndpillar]

No religion is a single paradigm of belief what is true.

God, Not any one of the many diverse conflicting fallible human perspectives.

In fact, by the shear weight of evidence ancient religious beliefs are far out of touch with what we know today by way of science and the history of our universe and humanity. Science. of course does not represent any sort of absolute truth. but a relaible evolving body of knowledge based on consistent objective verifiable evidence, which is lacking in religion with many diverse conflicting beliefs based on subjective anecdotal claims.

I have no reason to believe the ancient tribal perspective of Jews, Christians nor Muslims is remotely true in and of themselves.

Apparently, your science and its experts seem to never find or relay the truth of any matter. Are masks reliable against covid or can a covid shot give you immunity? The answers seem to be one of political position, and not with respect to the truth of the matter. What is the science of gravity? The only thing that is incontrovertible, is that everyone will die (Jeremiah 31:30), yet many say that is not true. The evidence that is obvious about the small community of Judaism, is that they were crushed many times, yet they always looked forward to returning to the land given to their father Jacob (Ezekiel 37), which is now where they live, and according to Zechariah 14, are looking for their neighbors to try and crush them again. Apparently, their writings were correct in both instances.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

People can say Yahweh is love but read what horrible things he did in the Bible.

Speaking as a former Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I see the biblical God as a sadistic and psychopathic monster who delights in inflicting pain and torturing people, as well as in causing total chaos and disasters in order to inflict pain and kill people.

This is why, as I explained in my previous post here, I do not believe anyone should derive their understanding of morality (or love, mercy, and justice) from the Bible. In my opinion, the biblical God is like a narcissistic and abusive parent who only "loves" you when you do or say exactly what they want you to do, and you think that as long as you don't make them angry, they won't hurt you, but you aren't completely certain because they have an extremely violent temper. If the biblical God exists, then I most certainly don't think that he is worthy of my respect and reverence, let alone my love and worship. However, I do believe he deserves my contempt.

 

[shunyadragon]

Apparently, your science and its experts seem to never find or relay the truth of any matter. Are masks reliable against covid or can a covid shot give you immunity? The answers seem to be one of political position, and not with respect to the truth of the matter. What is the science of gravity? The only thing that is incontrovertible, is that everyone will die (Jeremiah 31:30), yet many say that is not true. The evidence that is obvious about the small community of Judaism, is that they were crushed many times, yet they always looked forward to returning to the land given to their father Jacob (Ezekiel 37), which is now where they live, and according to Zechariah 14, are looking for their neighbors to try and crush them again. Apparently, their writings were correct in both instances.

IT is NOT my science. Careful od your over reaching the meaning concerning what I wrote abot science. You need to read up on the philosophy and methods of science today. Fortunately science is 'constantly changing evolving body of knowledge, and this includes the knowledge of the Coronaviruses and the Covid-19 pandemic. In this there is no such thing as 'absolute truth' in science, since knowledge constantly changes when there is new information.

Yes, there is a lot of misinformation and political jerking around science concerning Covid-19 and the issue of masks, but this is not science. There remains that not all the questions as the use of masks, but by the objective evidence the use of masks do reduce the spread of Covid-19. This has been true throughout the history of the problem of the spread of viral infections that are spread airborne. How we deal with the issues of masks and the spread of Covid-19 is clouded by political issues and misinformation. There will always be tradeoffs in how we deal with Covid-19 and other viruses..

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Sorry, there are too many incidences of an admittedly jealous and violent god.

Bible verses on God's jealousy.

Deuteronomy 4:24 "For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God."

Psalms 78:58 "For they provoked Him with their high places and aroused His jealousy with their graven images."

Exodus 20:5 "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me."

Exodus 34:13-14 "Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God."

Deuteronomy 6:15 "for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth."

Nahum 1:2 The Lord is a jealous and avenging God; the Lord is avenging and wrathful; the Lord takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies.

Bible verses on God's wrath.

Nahum 1:6 "Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger. His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him."

Ezekiel 25:17 "I will execute great vengeance on them with wrathful rebukes. Then they will know that I am the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon them.”

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

Romans 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth."

Romans 12:19 "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”

Ephesians 5:6 "Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”

 

[Redemptionsong]

You make a presumption that the words of the false prophets and their cronies are the words of God. It is the Roman church, that which the leader of the Protestant reformation, Luther, portrayed as the whore of Babylon, which edited and assembled your canon. Yeshua's clear message is that those "who commit/practice lawlessness", in line with your false gospel of grace, will be denied with regard to Matthew 7:23, or more precise in Matthew 13:41-42, will be "gathered" and cast into the "furnace of fire". You fail to realize that I haven't added or subtracted, that has been the role of the Gentile church, the daughter of Babylon, I have simply followed the example given in by the prophets, blown the horn, and separated the chaff/tare seed from the wheat seed, whereas the chaff and tares will be eventually burned come the "day of the LORD", which appears to be rapidly approaching (Matthew 3). Until then, although we are in the "end of the age", the son of man remains "near". the door" (Matthew 24:33) .The prophecies of "this book", the book of Revelation, include the "beast with two horns like a lamb", who is Constantine and his two Christ like leaders, Peter and Paul, the foundation of the dogmas of the Gentile church, which was to "deceive" "those who dwell on the earth" (Revelation 13:11-14) The deception is past tense and still ongoing. Babylon, the pagan church and her daughters, sits on the beast king (such as the Roman emperor Constantine, one of many) and the king gets its authority from the "dragon"/devil. (Revelation 17:3 & 13:4). Even Paul in his commentary to Timothy refers to "scripture" the "holy writings" as that which he read from his youth. None of your Acts, Hebrews, or your even Timothy was around when Paul was a youth. Your house (Gentile church) is built on sand, and the winds, rains, and floods are coming (Matthew 7:27).

There are good reasons given for the inclusion of each of the books that make up the NT canon.

The canon of scripture begins with the Torah, which acts as the foundation of all that follows. The Prophets and Writings not only continue the history of lsrael, and support the teaching of the Torah, they also look forward to the future fulfilment of God's plan for heaven and earth.

God supplies a complete plan for His first heaven and earth by giving the fulfilment of the OT prophecies in the NT. This includes the coming of the Suffering Servant and Messiah, Jesus, who is sent to set mankind free from death.

God's Son is lsrael. This is BOTH an individual (Christ) AND his people, because the one seed gives rise to the multitude. The lsrael of the OT is really an Israel of promise in Abraham.

If we did not have all the books that make up the NT, we would not have a record of both the coming of the 'seed', or the building of the spiritual temple, the Church. Nor would we have a 'rounding off' of the plan of God, and the prophetic vision found in Revelation that foresees a new heaven and earth.

To my understanding, the Spirit behind the scriptures is God. God is not impotent, and to imagine that He would allow his Word to become corrupted and infused with lies goes against all that God stands for. Men are constantly trying to undermine the internal integrity of the scriptures, but, lMO, the truth of these writings resists the onslaught.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Speaking as a former Christian and survivor of childhood abuse, I see the biblical God as a sadistic and psychopathic monster who delights in inflicting pain and torturing people, as well as in causing total chaos and disasters in order to inflict pain and kill people.

This is why, as I explained in my previous post here, I do not believe anyone should derive their understanding of morality (or love, mercy, and justice) from the Bible. In my opinion, the biblical God is like a narcissistic and abusive parent who only "loves" you when you do or say exactly what they want you to do, and you think that as long as you don't make them angry, they won't hurt you, but you aren't completely certain because they have an extremely violent temper. If the biblical God exists, then I most certainly don't think that he is worthy of my respect and reverence, let alone my love and worship. However, I do believe he deserves my contempt.

You appear to blame God for your abuse as a child.

We know from Jesus' own parables that there will be weeds growing in the harvest. By this, l mean that not all who call themselves 'Christian' follow Christ in Spirit and in truth.

The question becomes, ls God the author of injustice? IMO, God's jealousy and wrath are righteous responses, firstly towards his own, and secondly, towards evil.

 

[Redemptionsong]

No religion is a single paradigm of belief what is true.

God, Not any one of the many diverse conflicting fallible human perspectives.

In fact, by the shear weight of evidence ancient religious beliefs are far out of touch with what we know today by way of science and the history of our universe and humanity. Science. of course does not represent any sort of absolute truth. but a relaible evolving body of knowledge based on consistent objective verifiable evidence, which is lacking in religion with many diverse conflicting beliefs based on subjective anecdotal claims.

I have no reason to believe the ancient tribal perspective of Jews, Christians nor Muslims is remotely true in and of themselves.

I think we need to be clear about the purpose of 'science'. Science developed alongside man's desire to understand the world in which he lived. There is, in other words, a subject for study, which is the observable universe. To me, and those who hold God to be the Creator, the observable world is the creation of God. Therefore, science deals with creation. It does not deal with God, whose existence is not directly observable.

To have direct contact with God, who is Spirit, there must be a spiritual avenue of knowledge. This avenue is available in man because man was made a living soul by the Spirit of God. Humans were made as spiritual beings. And, one of the principal ways in which man understands that he is a spiritual being is through love. Love unites one individual with another despite the material, or physical, separation of bodies.

When studying the Bible, it becomes apparent that God connects the two realms of heaven (Spirit) and earth (Form). The Word of God, which existed as Spirit in the Father, becomes Form in the Son. The evidence of God's Word is made flesh, and dwells amongst men. So, what was purely Spirit, and without earthly evidence, becomes flesh and is made evidence.

 

[Pete in Panama]

...There is, in other words, a subject for study, which is the observable universe. To me, and those who hold God to be the Creator, the observable world is the creation of God....

Then we always put ourselves at risk whenever we spout off about God doing this or that, in my experience God's a bit more.

Scientifically we can't say that God created the observable universe. We say that most agree that the observable universe came from the inflation at T=10 -43 sec. Sure, if we want we can say that God created the inflation but by then we're on the borders of science and into religion

 

[Redemptionsong]

Then we always put ourselves at risk whenever we spout off about God doing this or that, in my experience God's a bit more.

Scientifically we can't say that God created the observable universe. We say that most agree that the observable universe came from the inflation at T=10 -43 sec. Sure, if we want we can say that God created the inflation but by then we're on the borders of science and into religion

If no time and space existed prior to the 'singularity', then it is reasonable to suggest that the most plausible 'first cause' is God. The alternative is to suggest the something came from nothing, and philosophically that is untenable.

So, to me, there is a very logical case to be made for the existence of God as the 'first cause'. By agreeing that there is a beginning to time and space, science has found itself in the same court as monotheistic faiths. Mainstream science holds to the view that the universe must have had a beginning.

The Bible, which Christians claim as the only complete and comprehensive revelation of God's purposes, takes as it's starting point the belief that, 'ln the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'

 

[Redemptionsong]

No religion is a single paradigm of belief what is true

I agree that no religion has a monopoly of truth, but l want to add that Jesus Christ is a person and not a religion.

Jesus made a quite extraordinary claim when he said, 'l am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' [John 14:6]

Jesus did not say, 'no man goeth to the Father' but 'no man cometh to the Father', because Christ is one with the Father!

This claim to be the exclusive way to the Father is a truth claim that cannot be ignored. It is also a truth claim that incorporates the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Christ to the throne of God. It's a claim, l suggest, that makes a statement about sin and the need for redemption.

If Jesus is not sent as the salvation of God, then how do you see salvation from sin (and death) occurring?