By Faith. Why?

[Audie]

I think we need to be clear about the purpose of 'science'. Science developed alongside man's desire to understand the world in which he lived. There is, in other words, a subject for study, which is the observable universe. To me, and those who hold God to be the Creator, the observable world is the creation of God. Therefore, science deals with creation. It does not deal with God, whose existence is not directly observable.

To have direct contact with God, who is Spirit, there must be a spiritual avenue of knowledge. This avenue is available in man because man was made a living soul by the Spirit of God. Humans were made as spiritual beings. And, one of the principal ways in which man understands that he is a spiritual being is through love. Love unites one individual with another despite the material, or physical, separation of bodies.

When studying the Bible, it becomes apparent that God connects the two realms of heaven (Spirit) and earth (Form). The Word of God, which existed as Spirit in the Father, becomes Form in the Son. The evidence of God's Word is made flesh, and dwells amongst men. So, what was purely Spirit, and without earthly evidence, becomes flesh and is made evidence.

Therefore, IN YOUR OPINI9N science
studies gods creation.

In the procrss it finds all holy books tp
be in error regarding things
physical. Much to the dismay
and denial of religionists.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Therefore, IN YOUR OPINI9N science
studies gods creation.

In the procrss it finds all holy books tp
be in error regarding things
physical. Much to the dismay
and denial of religionists.

I'm not a 'religionist' but I'm interested to know how science finds all holy books to be in error.

This would suggest that everything found in holy books is open to scientific enquiry.

Is that what you believe?

 

[2ndpillar]

There are good reasons given for the inclusion of each of the books that make up the NT canon.

The canon of scripture begins with the Torah, which acts as the foundation of all that follows. The Prophets and Writings not only continue the history of lsrael, and support the teaching of the Torah, they also look forward to the future fulfilment of God's plan for heaven and earth.

God supplies a complete plan for His first heaven and earth by giving the fulfilment of the OT prophecies in the NT. This includes the coming of the Suffering Servant and Messiah, Jesus, who is sent to set mankind free from death.

God's Son is lsrael. This is BOTH an individual (Christ) AND his people, because the one seed gives rise to the multitude. The lsrael of the OT is really an Israel of promise in Abraham.

If we did not have all the books that make up the NT, we would not have a record of both the coming of the 'seed', or the building of the spiritual temple, the Church. Nor would we have a 'rounding off' of the plan of God, and the prophetic vision found in Revelation that foresees a new heaven and earth.

To my understanding, the Spirit behind the scriptures is God. God is not impotent, and to imagine that He would allow his Word to become corrupted and infused with lies goes against all that God stands for. Men are constantly trying to undermine the internal integrity of the scriptures, but, lMO, the truth of these writings resists the onslaught.

The "Torah" is not included in the Gentile church NT canon which was formulated by the bishop of Alexandria in 367 A.D.,and which is not even universally accepted by all the daughters of Babylon. Per Jeremiah 8:8, the "scribes have made a lie of the law of the LORD". Did he allow the "scribes" to lie, and the "shepherds" of Israel to mistreat Israel, as was apparently done per Ezekiel 34? Did he say he was going to "destroy" these "fat" shepherds, who did not heal or feed the flock (Ezekiel 34:16)? Your "new heaven and new earth" are in the future". We haven't even reached the judgment of God (Ezekiel 34:20), the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), the Har-Magedon, whereas the "locust" will afflict all but the 144,000 of the sons of Jacob/Israel, who are marked. The covenant with Abraham was the covenant of Circumcision, which was for all the peoples, for God changed Abram's name to Abraham, which means "father of multitude of nations". Abraham circumcised his slaves as well as his sons. God also promised Jacob the land he slept on, which was at that time Bethel. The promise of God was also to Jacob's descendants (Genesis 28:13-15) also, which is emphasized in Ezekiel 37 whereas Judah and Israel are to be reunited and get the land given to Jacob under the leadership of king David. As for your immutability of the Word of God, why did Yeshua have to give a judgment for those who add and subtract, if it is immutable? The plan (your "plan of God") was expressed by Yeshua, and that "plan" included the "enemy" planting tare seeds "among" the wheat/"good" seed (Matthew 13:24-25), and "those who dwell on the earth" will be "deceived" by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", and those two horns being "Peter and Paul", two Christ like leaders, set up by the "beast", the Roman emperor "Constantine", who built basilicas for each.

 

[2ndpillar]

IT is NOT my science. Careful od your over reaching the meaning concerning what I wrote abot science. You need to read up on the philosophy and methods of science today. Fortunately science is 'constantly changing evolving body of knowledge, and this includes the knowledge of the Coronaviruses and the Covid-19 pandemic. In this there is no such thing as 'absolute truth' in science, since knowledge constantly changes when there is new information.

Yes, there is a lot of misinformation and political jerking around science concerning Covid-19 and the issue of masks, but this is not science. There remains that not all the questions as the use of masks, but by the objective evidence the use of masks do reduce the spread of Covid-19. This has been true throughout the history of the problem of the spread of viral infections that are spread airborne. How we deal with the issues of masks and the spread of Covid-19 is clouded by political issues and misinformation. There will always be tradeoffs in how we deal with Covid-19 and other viruses..

There is a difference between "masks" and N95 masks, which almost no one but medical staff wear. And the covid vaccine does not produce any type of immunity as touted by the "scientist". It simply lowers the immunity response of the individual which is how covid generally kills, by the immunity system over heating. Now with a lower immunity response, you can look forward to dying from something else, or die of a blood clot stemming from the injection. Herd immunity is the only reasonable path, as China has found out, with Shanghai recently having a 75% positive testing. Normal masks are pretty much worthless with regards to covid, and 6' distancing was a figure pulled out of the blue. Staying indoor is crazy, as it is sunlight, ultraviolet rays, which kills the virus. Science is apparently run by the politically elite, therefore whatever comes out of science is questionable. Should carbohydrates be at the top of the foot pyramid or the bottom? Are fats good for you, or does it matter what kind of fats are bad for you? Are menthol cigarettes good for you, or not? Is sugar and corn syrup good for you or not? It kind of depends on which scientist is getting paid by the merchandizer.

 

[2ndpillar]

I'm not a 'religionist' but I'm interested to know how science finds all holy books to be in error.

This would suggest that everything found in holy books is open to scientific enquiry.

Is that what you believe?

Well, "scriptures" says you should always investigate before calling something holy. Proverbs 20:25

 

[Audie]

I'm not a 'religionist' but I'm interested to know how science finds all holy books to be in error.

This would suggest that everything found in holy books is open to scientific enquiry.

Is that what you believe?

No

 

[Redemptionsong]

The "Torah" is not included in the Gentile church NT canon which was formulated by the bishop of Alexandria in 367 A.D.,and which is not even universally accepted by all the daughters of Babylon. Per Jeremiah 8:8, the "scribes have made a lie of the law of the LORD". Did he allow the "scribes" to lie, and the "shepherds" of Israel to mistreat Israel, as was apparently done per Ezekiel 34? Did he say he was going to "destroy" these "fat" shepherds, who did not heal or feed the flock (Ezekiel 34:16)? Your "new heaven and new earth" are in the future". We haven't even reached the judgment of God (Ezekiel 34:20), the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:31-32), the Har-Magedon, whereas the "locust" will afflict all but the 144,000 of the sons of Jacob/Israel, who are marked. The covenant with Abraham was the covenant of Circumcision, which was for all the peoples, for God changed Abram's name to Abraham, which means "father of multitude of nations". Abraham circumcised his slaves as well as his sons. God also promised Jacob the land he slept on, which was at that time Bethel. The promise of God was also to Jacob's descendants (Genesis 28:13-15) also, which is emphasized in Ezekiel 37 whereas Judah and Israel are to be reunited and get the land given to Jacob under the leadership of king David. As for your immutability of the Word of God, why did Yeshua have to give a judgment for those who add and subtract, if it is immutable? The plan (your "plan of God") was expressed by Yeshua, and that "plan" included the "enemy" planting tare seeds "among" the wheat/"good" seed (Matthew 13:24-25), and "those who dwell on the earth" will be "deceived" by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", and those two horns being "Peter and Paul", two Christ like leaders, set up by the "beast", the Roman emperor "Constantine", who built basilicas for each.

The Hebrew canon is a integral part of the Christian scriptures, like it or not! Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' and there is little doubt that he included in that statement both the words of the Hebrew prophets, as well as his own words as found in the NT.

One only has to do a study of the passages of the OT that appear in the NT, to realise that the NT is a natural successor and fulfilment of new covenant prophecies.

To claim that Peter and Paul are 'the beast with two horns like a lamb' is a truly diabolical interpretation of the scriptures. It makes Jesus Christ a false prophet and Saviour, and, in so doing, leaves man in a state of sin.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well, "scriptures" says you should always investigate before calling something holy. Proverbs 20:25

I agree with this, but your investigation appears to have overlooked the activity of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Peter and Paul!

 

[Redemptionsong]

No

Then maybe you can explain to me how science 'finds all holy books to be in error'.

 

[2ndpillar]

I agree with this, but your investigation appears to have overlooked the activity of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Peter and Paul!

It appears the whatever spirit of the writer of Hebrews, an apparent close associate with Paul, had, the writer thought it fine to delete (make obsolete) (Revelation 22:19) the "old"/written law, as well as Paul nailing it to a cross. The "rock" is "justice" and "righteousness" per Isaiah 28, and both are dependent on the Law and the prophets. You have to delete most of the Law and the prophets and twist the rest to come to your conclusions. When Yeshua called Peter "Satan", that should have been a hint (Matthew 16:23). When Yeshua fed Judas Iscariot, Satan, that should have been a clue that Yeshua was having Judas fulfill Zechariah 11:12-13, as stated in Matthew 27:3-10. The other shepherds in Zechariah 11:10 & 17 included Peter and Paul, both who were to be the "shepherds" chosen by the "LORD" to "pasture" the "flock (Gentile church)" "doomed for slaughter". Yeshua warned of the "false prophets" who would produce bad fruit, such as the Inquisition, and present Roman church, and who would "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:13-23), but you have appeared to embrace them. I don't think that is a good idea. Your "house" seems to be built on the foundation of Peter and Paul, both being foundations of "sand" (Matthew 7:26-27).

 

[2ndpillar]

The Hebrew canon is a integral part of the Christian scriptures, like it or not! Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' and there is little doubt that he included in that statement both the words of the Hebrew prophets, as well as his own words as found in the NT.

One only has to do a study of the passages of the OT that appear in the NT, to realise that the NT is a natural successor and fulfilment of new covenant prophecies.

To claim that Peter and Paul are 'the beast with two horns like a lamb' is a truly diabolical interpretation of the scriptures. It makes Jesus Christ a false prophet and Saviour, and, in so doing, leaves man in a state of sin.

When Yeshua said "scripture cannot be broken", your NT canon was not in existence, and he was referring the the "Word of God", the Law and the prophets. According to Revelation 19:13 he was including his own message, but according to Matthew 13, he was not including the "message of the "enemy"/"devil". The fulfillment of the prophecies is that Judah would be reunited with Ephraim/Israel, and they would live on the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37), with David being their king. None of that has happened. According to Zechariah 11, it was the "LORD" who took Peter and Paul, the "two horns like a lamb", to "pasture" the "flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter, and Yeshua was simply the "LORD"s right arm in "fulfilling the Law and the prophets". (Matthew 5:17). If you read Hosea 3, you will find that it is the "harlot" (Gentile church) which was bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, that she was only to remain for "many days", before the sons of Israel/Jacob return to the LORD and David. That hasn't happened as of yet. The OT is about the coming kingdom, and the message of Yeshua was about the coming kingdom, which has not come at this point in time, apart from being "at hand", "right at the door" (Matthew 24:33). As for "man", he remains in a state of sin, for he remains a son of the devil (1 John 3:8) and "everyone will die for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). You are part of "everyone", and you will die despite what Paul might have preached in alignment with the message of the "serpent" in Genesis 3:4.

 

[2ndpillar]

I agree with this, but your investigation appears to have overlooked the activity of the Holy Spirit in the lives of Peter and Paul!

One false prophecy, and a person now sits in the chair of a false prophet. Paul, in contravention of the Scripture (Jeremaih 31:30), said his contemporary listeners would not all sleep/die. He and his listeners are all dead. Peter told Yeshua he would not deny him, yet his prophecy was voided by his actions. You seem to stand on a two-legged stool which is not stable. The supposed heir of Peter is now the Pope, and the preachers installed by Paul, how desperate can a person get. Have you watched televangelist on TV? According to Ezekiel 34, the "fat" shepherds, those who eat the "fat" of the "sheep" will be the first to be "destroyed".

 

[Audie]

The Hebrew canon is a integral part of the Christian scriptures, like it or not! Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' and there is little doubt that he included in that statement both the words of the Hebrew prophets, as well as his own words as found in the NT.

One only has to do a study of the passages of the OT that appear in the NT, to realise that the NT is a natural successor and fulfilment of new covenant prophecies.

To claim that Peter and Paul are 'the beast with two horns like a lamb' is a truly diabolical interpretation of the scriptures. It makes Jesus Christ a false prophet and Saviour, and, in so doing, leaves man in a state of sin.

So it's still a sin to eat oysters

 

[Audie]

One false prophecy, and a person now sits in the chair of a false prophet. Paul, in contravention of the Scripture (Jeremaih 31:30), said his contemporary listeners would not all sleep/die. He and his listeners are all dead. Peter told Yeshua he would not deny him, yet his prophecy was voided by his actions. You seem to stand on a two-legged stool which is not stable. The supposed heir of Peter is now the Pope, and the preachers installed by Paul, how desperate can a person get. Have you watched televangelist on TV? According to Ezekiel 34, the "fat" shepherds, those who eat the "fat" of the "sheep" will be the first to be "destroyed".

So many Christians hate catholics more than they do atheists.

 

[Audie]

Then maybe you can explain to me how science 'finds all holy books to be in error'.

Well. It may be a bit of an overstatement, I
have not read them all. And then theres " define holy".
So let's just do yours.
It's full of fictional tales.
The flood is perhaps the biggest whopper,
among things amenable to disproof.

 

[Audie]

The Hebrew canon is a integral part of the Christian scriptures, like it or not! Jesus said, 'scripture cannot be broken' and there is little doubt that he included in that statement both the words of the Hebrew prophets, as well as his own words as found in the NT.

One only has to do a study of the passages of the OT that appear in the NT, to realise that the NT is a natural successor and fulfilment of new covenant prophecies.

To claim that Peter and Paul are 'the beast with two horns like a lamb' is a truly diabolical interpretation of the scriptures. It makes Jesus Christ a false prophet and Saviour, and, in so doing, leaves man in a state of sin.

Literal flood must be diabolical too as it makes
God out to be a monster.

 

[Redemptionsong]

It appears the whatever spirit of the writer of Hebrews, an apparent close associate with Paul, had, the writer thought it fine to delete (make obsolete) (Revelation 22:19) the "old"/written law, as well as Paul nailing it to a cross. The "rock" is "justice" and "righteousness" per Isaiah 28, and both are dependent on the Law and the prophets. You have to delete most of the Law and the prophets and twist the rest to come to your conclusions. When Yeshua called Peter "Satan", that should have been a hint (Matthew 16:23). When Yeshua fed Judas Iscariot, Satan, that should have been a clue that Yeshua was having Judas fulfill Zechariah 11:12-13, as stated in Matthew 27:3-10. The other shepherds in Zechariah 11:10 & 17 included Peter and Paul, both who were to be the "shepherds" chosen by the "LORD" to "pasture" the "flock (Gentile church)" "doomed for slaughter". Yeshua warned of the "false prophets" who would produce bad fruit, such as the Inquisition, and present Roman church, and who would "practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:13-23), but you have appeared to embrace them. I don't think that is a good idea. Your "house" seems to be built on the foundation of Peter and Paul, both being foundations of "sand" (Matthew 7:26-27).

Explain to me, line by line, what you think Zechariah 11:10-14 is saying.

 

[Redemptionsong]

When Yeshua said "scripture cannot be broken", your NT canon was not in existence, and he was referring the the "Word of God", the Law and the prophets. According to Revelation 19:13 he was including his own message, but according to Matthew 13, he was not including the "message of the "enemy"/"devil". The fulfillment of the prophecies is that Judah would be reunited with Ephraim/Israel, and they would live on the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37), with David being their king. None of that has happened. According to Zechariah 11, it was the "LORD" who took Peter and Paul, the "two horns like a lamb", to "pasture" the "flock (Gentile church) doomed for slaughter, and Yeshua was simply the "LORD"s right arm in "fulfilling the Law and the prophets". (Matthew 5:17). If you read Hosea 3, you will find that it is the "harlot" (Gentile church) which was bought for the equivalence of 30 shekels of silver, that she was only to remain for "many days", before the sons of Israel/Jacob return to the LORD and David. That hasn't happened as of yet. The OT is about the coming kingdom, and the message of Yeshua was about the coming kingdom, which has not come at this point in time, apart from being "at hand", "right at the door" (Matthew 24:33). As for "man", he remains in a state of sin, for he remains a son of the devil (1 John 3:8) and "everyone will die for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30). You are part of "everyone", and you will die despite what Paul might have preached in alignment with the message of the "serpent" in Genesis 3:4.

What a very mixed up theology you have!

I could understand you better if you said that you rejected Jesus, but to accept Jesus and reject the church, his body, is a nonsense.

Let me be clear in my own mind. Do you accept all four Gospels as reliable testimony to Jesus Christ?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Well. It may be a bit of an overstatement, I
have not read them all. And then theres " define holy".
So let's just do yours.
It's full of fictional tales.
The flood is perhaps the biggest whopper,
among things amenable to disproof.

Science has neither proved, nor disproved, the biblical flood.

What's interesting is that the genealogy of Noah, Genesis 10, tells us that he had a son, Ham (who lived through the flood), who begat Cush, who begat Nimrod. So, two generations after the flood Nimrod was king over Babel (Babylon). Archaeologists have discovered, beneath the ruins of Babylon, what appears to be the foundations of the tower of Babel [Genesis 11:4].

Etemenanki (the "Tower of Babel") - Livius

Maybe the use of science will actually end up working against you. Matters of the heart are never going to fall under the scientist's microscope, but the created observable world is there to be studied. In the Bible, there is a 6000 year history to be verified, and a host of prophecies to be understood and explained. To end up with a meaningful theology, one must account for all scripture, and be able to offer an 'unbroken' interpretation.

 

[dybmh]

You've overlooked one important word in this quotation:
'Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends'.

I overlooked? Are you sure?

It doesn't say "no man". That would be some derivative of "anthro". See James 1:13.

Jesus did not just claim to be a human Messiah. He claimed to be the righteousness of God. He claimed to be the salvation of God.

Can you bring scripture where Jesus, himself, claims to be salvation? Bonus points if he claims it's"of God".